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Wanderer Returns

How much do you need to retire in Australia in 2021?

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On 22/08/2021 at 21:24, Wanderer Returns said:

 Would $40,000 for a single person, or $60,000 per couple be enough?

I'm running a 4 bed home (no mortgage) and feeding two of us and paying all bills on under $30000. prior to one of my sons joining the navy I was feeding 3. I don't scrimp on utilities or food, and don't, and never have, taken any keep off my son(s). I run a fourby that's over 20yr old but prefer many short stay trips as opposed to long holidays. With what Qld has to offer I have no desire to travel further than within the state and perhaps a few trips to NNSW

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On 27/08/2021 at 09:48, Wanderer Returns said:

Thanks for the comments everyone, and also for the links to various retirement calculators etc. I've estimated that I should be able to retire in some degree of comfort (based on our needs) when I'm 60 (5.75 years from now, not that anyone's counting), although I might have to stop buying beer and start brewing my own! Apart from overseas trips, we are also pretty frugal. We hardly ever eat out and generally change the car (for another second-hand one) every 5 years or so. You can probably run them for longer here in Australia because of the climate, but the cars I owned in the UK were pretty much on their way to the scrapheap by the time they were 10-12 years old. I agree that people seem to spend a lot more money on cars than they really need to.

As @Marisawright noted, it was a loaded question because I'd really like to stop working before 60 and was wondering if we'd had enough money. The short answer is 'no' if we continue to live in Australia. However, we've been thinking about renting out our house and living in a cheaper country for a few years. The rent would more than cover the mortgage, and the remaining funds would become an income stream along with my UK private pension, which I can get at 55. Regional Italy is top of the list at the moments, as the cost of renting is half of what it would be in Australia. It would also negate that need for overseas holidays because we'd already be there 🙂  Thailand/Malaysia are also possibilities, although I think I might get bored there after a while.

Definately cost of renting in reginal Italy likely far less than Australia. But with Brexit other than for a period would that still be feasible? I was thinking the same, but France  to buy, where I lived prior to returning to Australia and had a permanent right to stay now expired and experiencing some difficulty in dealing with bureaucracy  to regain any right to remain. It would probably require a move to UK to have any chance of mounting those hurdles and even then....

I've checked up on UK NI payments so could I suppose remain in UK , which I find cheaper than Australia with free NHS, free public transport or very cheap for over sixties in much of UK, (hence do away with the upkeep of a car) better walkability in many areas to keep fit and closeness to Europe which would be a very big factor. (more to do in retirement in theory , I find people have more hobbies in UK than Australia, some rather obscure but not as active outside of walking, well my perspective of things)

But we are still thinking of Cairns in QLD. Palm Cove have been checking out houses , in what is supposed to be the best area of Cairns. In many cases remaining in Australia with personal allowance amounts permissible makes possibly more sense but need to probably go far deeper into it. 

Like your comment with regards to Malaysia and Thailand would Cairns get boring over time?? Actually  Malaysia was a country long under consideration before the virus, as know it well and love the food, like the people, as well as in an area which avails itself to easy and cheap travel within Asia and used to be at least cheap enough to fly to UK/Europe. 

Never really taken to live in Thailand, been many, many times,  but know people that did indeed take that as a retirement option and appear happy enough for now. Although two others, over the course of time did return to original countries of Australia and UK when serious illness struck. 

What I do find with ageing is the process of decision making becomes so much more difficult. One becomes far more risk adverse (obviously) and in my case anyway seem to find so many reasons that nullify change , but fully aware present situation cannot remain for a host of reasons.  

Hard to say yearly cost. I find eating out takes up quite a bit even with pruning back but enjoyable to meet up with others, that seemingly the most common way to do so. But not paying heating bills saves a lot. Don't use the car much living so close to the city. While Australia is expensive it's still possible with some care to live on a budget. It helps to be debt free though and not trying to live beyond means and being a saver as I've always been. 

Edited by Blue Flu
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20 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

Definately cost of renting in reginal Italy likely far less than Australia. But with Brexit other than for a period would that still be feasible?

When I looked into it, it was fairly easy to get an Italian Elective Residency visa.   The income requirements were fairly low, more reasonable than some other European countries. The biggest hurdle is that you must have signed a lease or purchased a property before you apply.  

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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58 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

When I looked into it, it was fairly easy to get an Italian Elective Residency visa.   The income requirements were fairly low, more reasonable than some other European countries. The biggest hurdle is that you must have signed a lease or purchased a property before you apply.  

Then you are stuffed if they refuse your visa.


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37 minutes ago, Parley said:

Then you are stuffed if they refuse your visa.

Yes, that's why I said it's the main hurdle.  Obviously taking on a lease isn't as big a risk as buying a property.  I've known people take on a lease with a private agreement that it's subject to getting the visa.  But it's one of those visas where the requirements are very clear, so if you know you meet all the criteria you can feel pretty confident you'll get it.

Edited by Marisawright

Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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8 hours ago, Marisawright said:

When I looked into it, it was fairly easy to get an Italian Elective Residency visa.   The income requirements were fairly low, more reasonable than some other European countries. The biggest hurdle is that you must have signed a lease or purchased a property before you apply.  

There are ways but none willing to commit to especially buying of property which can be fraught with difficulty if not on the ground for legal reasons. Do not want to rent first four or so months until found a location comfortable to commit to. Hence it would be probably better to do it in stages from UK or EU country partner is from. With one of us having an EU passport it should indeed prove doable. I wouldn't imagine Italian bureaucracy is worse than the French, which is saying something, but all in time I feel sure can be sorted.  

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39 minutes ago, Blue Flu said:

There are ways but none willing to commit to especially buying of property which can be fraught with difficulty if not on the ground for legal reasons. Do not want to rent first four or so months until found a location comfortable to commit to. Hence it would be probably better to do it in stages from UK or EU country partner is from. With one of us having an EU passport it should indeed prove doable. I wouldn't imagine Italian bureaucracy is worse than the French, which is saying something, but all in time I feel sure can be sorted.  

This is the great thing about the Italian visa - a long lease is acceptable, no need to buy property.   You are right, you would need to spend some time in Italy first on holiday, secure the lease, then apply for the Elective visa.  Pre-Covid, you could expect to get it approved in 2 months.  No idea what the current or future situation would be, of course.  


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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On 29/08/2021 at 15:15, Blue Flu said:

Definitely cost of renting in reginal Italy likely far less than Australia. But with Brexit other than for a period would that still be feasible?

 

On 30/08/2021 at 12:11, Marisawright said:

When I looked into it, it was fairly easy to get an Italian Elective Residency visa.   The income requirements were fairly low, more reasonable than some other European countries. The biggest hurdle is that you must have signed a lease or purchased a property before you apply.  

 

On 30/08/2021 at 21:11, Marisawright said:

This is the great thing about the Italian visa - a long lease is acceptable, no need to buy property.   You are right, you would need to spend some time in Italy first on holiday, secure the lease, then apply for the Elective visa.  Pre-Covid, you could expect to get it approved in 2 months.  No idea what the current or future situation would be, of course.  

I'm an Irish citizen, so I don't need to go through any visa rigmarole because I have EU residency rights. However, my wife only has British citizen, but my understanding is that obtaining residency for spouses of EU citizens when living in Europe is much more straightforward (and less expensive) than spouses of British citizens living in the UK, where the process bleeds you dry.

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On 28/08/2021 at 21:08, newjez said:

Interesting. I have started brewing my own, and have been very impressed at the taste. Seems to taste better in the UK than Australia. Maybe the water? Or maybe the temperature?

I'm of a similar age, and I have to admit that the enthusiasm for work has gone. There are the odd moments I enjoy, but most of it is nonsense. Supporting systems that are past their sell by date, just waiting for them to be replaced. I'd rather be sitting in the garden.

I'll work while there's work there, but won't be disappointed when it's over.

Italy sounds brilliant. I hadn't thought of that before. Is it still possible post brexit? I was thinking of a place in the Perth hills with a main residence and a granny flat. Live in the granny flat and rent the main house to migrants. Provide pick up service and so forth. 

Just a dream atm, but could become reality in a couple of years time.

@newjez I am sorely tempted to brew my own beer, as my father did, but I'm sure it will result in me drinking far too much beer - as it did for him! It's now getting increasingly difficult to buy craft ales over here for anything less than $4/can - when bought as part of a 4-pack or 6-pack. Once it reaches $5/can I've decided I'm giving it up. I might even give up before and then I can retire sooner, but at the moment I find that it brightens up my working week!

Italy - I'm thinking about the Dolomites. Spent some wonderful summers there with my parents. I'm fortunate to have Irish citizenship through a grandparent, so I've managed to dodge the Brexit bullet 🙂 

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25 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

I'm an Irish citizen, so I don't need to go through any visa rigmarole because I have EU residency rights. However, my wife only has British citizen, but my understanding is that obtaining residency for spouses of EU citizens when living in Europe is much more straightforward (and less expensive) than spouses of British citizens living in the UK, where the process bleeds you dry.

It used to be a piece of cake, just move there and fill out a form within a few months after arrival.  I believe it's getting a bit harder now, with some EU countries allowing that ONLY if you're moving from your own country.  So an Irish citizen moving from Ireland would just do the form, whereas an Irish citizen moving from Australia would face more bureaucracy.

Edited by Marisawright

Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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On 29/08/2021 at 15:15, Blue Flu said:

But we are still thinking of Cairns in QLD. Palm Cove have been checking out houses , in what is supposed to be the best area of Cairns. In many cases remaining in Australia with personal allowance amounts permissible makes possibly more sense but need to probably go far deeper into it. 

Like your comment with regards to Malaysia and Thailand would Cairns get boring over time?? Actually Malaysia was a country long under consideration before the virus, as know it well and love the food, like the people, as well as in an area which avails itself to easy and cheap travel within Asia and used to be at least cheap enough to fly to UK/Europe. 

When I worked in Cairns I lived just down the road from Palm Beach in Trinity Beach, for 3 years. It's a slightly cheaper suburb and in my opinion has a bit more personality than Palm Beach. A word of warning, if you're looking to buy an apartment/unit in FNQ then the bodycorp fees can be exorbitant due to the cyclone risk. It's a beautiful location, but unless you're into fishing or diving in a big way, it's definitely too boring to retire there!

I think S E Asia is only really an option while you're in good health and even then you need health insurance, but it's a option for the more adventurous due to the low cost of living. Also, you don't need a particularly large pension to obtain a retirement visa for either Thailand or Malaysia.

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32 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

It used to be a piece of cake, just move there and fill out a form within a few months after arrival.  I believe it's getting a bit harder now, with some EU countries allowing that ONLY if you're moving from your own country.  So an Irish citizen moving from Ireland would just do the form, whereas an Irish citizen moving from Australia would face more bureaucracy.

That doesn't sound right at all, although I'll happily stand corrected 🙂

According to the official website of the EU... As an EU citizen, you have the right to move to any EU country to live, work, study, look for a job or retire. There is no mention of any restrictions placed on EU citizens living outside the EU.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/index_en.htm#eu-citizen

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10 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

That doesn't sound right at all, although I'll happily stand corrected 🙂

According to the official website of the EU... As an EU citizen, you have the right to move to any EU country to live, work, study, look for a job or retire. There is no mention of any restrictions placed on EU citizens living outside the EU.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about EU citizens, I'm talking about the formalities needed to bring your non-EU spouse with you.


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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3 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

@newjez I am sorely tempted to brew my own beer, as my father did, but I'm sure it will result in me drinking far too much beer - as it did for him! It's now getting increasingly difficult to buy craft ales over here for anything less than $4/can - when bought as part of a 4-pack or 6-pack. Once it reaches $5/can I've decided I'm giving it up. I might even give up before and then I can retire sooner, but at the moment I find that it brightens up my working week!

Italy - I'm thinking about the Dolomites. Spent some wonderful summers there with my parents. I'm fortunate to have Irish citizenship through a grandparent, so I've managed to dodge the Brexit bullet 🙂 

I tend to brew Cooper's because of their reliability, but I'm not exclusive. I'm brewing into 2 litre coke bottles atm, which is fine, but you have to be prepared to drink 3 pints within two days, or it will go flat. Haven't had a problem so far, but I am building a collection of 500 ml glass bottles.  It costs about $2 for two litres. Which is a lot cheaper than shop bought.  Plus I use the dregs in my beer traps for snails. Ideal brewing temperature is 23 degrees. So best not to brew in Australian summer. I have my last brew on for the year as it will get too cold to brew outside in the UK. I could brew inside, but I should have enough to get me through to April next year.

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Nearly there! Don't drop the ball now guys! Vaccines are weeks away. Stay safe!

 

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4 hours ago, Marisawright said:

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about EU citizens, I'm talking about the formalities needed to bring your non-EU spouse with you.

I see. At the moment there are no restrictions on British citizens entering the Schengen area and staying up to 90 days, although they are introducing a visa waiver programme (ETIAS) in late 2022, which still seems like a formality. From the information I've read, my spouse will need to register within 90 days of arrival and apply for a residence permit. I appreciate that this process may vary somewhat between the different member states.

Edited by Wanderer Returns

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Returns said:

. From the information I've read, my spouse will need to register within 90 days of arrival and apply for a residence permit. I appreciate that this process may vary somewhat between the different member states.

That's always been the case.  The difference is that previously, as the spouse of an EU citizen, that would be a mere formality with no conditions applying.  Whereas now, in some countries, you would need to have been an EU resident as well as an EU citizen.  I haven't looked into it in any great detail, I just noticed it when i was looking for something else. 

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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3 hours ago, Marisawright said:

That's always been the case.  The difference is that previously, as the spouse of an EU citizen, that would be a mere formality with no conditions applying.  Whereas now, in some countries, you would need to have been an EU resident as well as an EU citizen.  I haven't looked into it in any great detail, I just noticed it when i was looking for something else. 

It'd be interesting to know which countries this applies to - forewarned is forearmed, as they say. I can't imagine there would be too many restrictions to stop you moving to rural Italy. You can buy a house (in need of renovation) for as little as 1 Euro, and they are paying the rent of families moving into some towns to stop the communities dying out.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2021/05/19/this-italian-village-will-pay-you-to-move-there-and-even-more-if-you-have-a-baby/?sh=4177928962d8

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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On 02/09/2021 at 11:32, Wanderer Returns said:

I think S E Asia is only really an option while you're in good health and even then you need health insurance, but it's a option for the more adventurous due to the low cost of living. Also, you don't need a particularly large pension to obtain a retirement visa for either Thailand or Malaysia.

I think there is definitely going to be a change in perspective over what retirement means in future, due to the vast and growing differences in health care and living expenses in various countries.  I know the Chalong harbour in South Phuket is full of Aussies living on boats because it's cheaper than staying in Australia, a great place to see out a pandemic.

I know Malaysia were on a push for the last 15 years pre-covid to offer 10 year golden visas with residency and property purchase rights.  I'm not sure if they've now been overloaded with Chinese applicants, but it was popular in the UK and Australia.

As you say...if you're between 55-65 then SE Asia can be a brilliant option for long term rentals when you're in good physical health and need minimal assistance.  Leave more super in the pot at home and try and retain a property to rent out if you can afford to.  Then when you get older and less active, return to 1st world health care systems, collect the super for the higher living costs and live near a major hospital !

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On 02/09/2021 at 09:32, Wanderer Returns said:

When I worked in Cairns I lived just down the road from Palm Beach in Trinity Beach, for 3 years. It's a slightly cheaper suburb and in my opinion has a bit more personality than Palm Beach. A word of warning, if you're looking to buy an apartment/unit in FNQ then the bodycorp fees can be exorbitant due to the cyclone risk. It's a beautiful location, but unless you're into fishing or diving in a big way, it's definitely too boring to retire there!

I think S E Asia is only really an option while you're in good health and even then you need health insurance, but it's a option for the more adventurous due to the low cost of living. Also, you don't need a particularly large pension to obtain a retirement visa for either Thailand or Malaysia.

Thanks for the warning , but fully aware of the dangers of body corp in Cairns. It would be a house over an apartment. Rates also appear to be extremely high. Again I think you are right with regards to Asia being more interesting. 

Edited by Blue Flu
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19 minutes ago, Robert Dyson said:

I think there is definitely going to be a change in perspective over what retirement means in future, due to the vast and growing differences in health care and living expenses in various countries.  I know the Chalong harbour in South Phuket is full of Aussies living on boats because it's cheaper than staying in Australia, a great place to see out a pandemic.

I know Malaysia were on a push for the last 15 years pre-covid to offer 10 year golden visas with residency and property purchase rights.  I'm not sure if they've now been overloaded with Chinese applicants, but it was popular in the UK and Australia.

As you say...if you're between 55-65 then SE Asia can be a brilliant option for long term rentals when you're in good physical health and need minimal assistance.  Leave more super in the pot at home and try and retain a property to rent out if you can afford to.  Then when you get older and less active, return to 1st world health care systems, collect the super for the higher living costs and live near a major hospital !

I think it has been changing for sometime. With the high cost of living in Australia ever more people have come to weigh up options. As you say Malaysia had a brilliant retirement visa scheme , that was becoming less so, after increased cost requirements and now stopped altogether. We will see if the new PM there will restart it, but with covid being what it is not likely any time soon. Thailand had    made their requirements    harder as well. I'm not sure if possible to remain doing visa runs every three months any more. Others of note are Vietnam and Cambodia. The latter is easiest in visa requirements. But still not great in medical care. An evacuation to Thailand I suspect still necessarily in time of emergency. 

Malaysia on the other hand has good hospitals often western trained staff, most everyone speaks perfect English and probably top of the pack all things considered. Some may find Thailand more interesting. 

I'm not sure how many really old people live in those countries but recall seeing on TV a few years back a program on Thailand building a business on  western aged care. No idea what became of it. If have the money though, would a return to a country like Australia really be preferable where age care is expensive and in a state of turmoil . Private health care is expensive in Australia as well. I suspect with a decent superannuation and say a house to rent in Australia, it would be a very attractive life indeed in the countries mentioned. 

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2 hours ago, Robert Dyson said:

I think there is definitely going to be a change in perspective over what retirement means in future

Maybe it's more a reality check than anything.  When I think of my parents' retirement, they basically worked until the legal retirement age, then put their cardigans and slippers on, watched telly and pottered in the garden.

Somewhere in the '80s or '90s, things changed.   Australians my age - baby boomers - started talking about retiring early.  Not only that, they were going to retire early and live it up, going on cruises and so on.   A whole industry grew up, geared to those expectations, so we all got used to the idea that's how retirement should be.   And when we looked at our super and the value of our home/investments, it all seemed achievable.  Then you get close to retirement and realise it isn't.

The thing is, it's not because the cost of living is going up faster than usual (apart from housing in Oz).   It's our life expectancy that's the issue. People in the 1950's retired at 65 and most died before they were 70.    Now, if you retire at 55, you could potentially spend more years in retirement than you did at work - no wonder the money may not last!

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

Maybe it's more a reality check than anything.  When I think of my parents' retirement, they basically worked until the legal retirement age, then put their cardigans and slippers on, watched telly and pottered in the garden.

Somewhere in the '80s or '90s, things changed.   Australians my age - baby boomers - started talking about retiring early.  Not only that, they were going to retire early and live it up, going on cruises and so on.   A whole industry grew up, geared to those expectations, so we all got used to the idea that's how retirement should be.   And when we looked at our super and the value of our home/investments, it all seemed achievable.  Then you get close to retirement and realise it isn't.

The thing is, it's not because the cost of living is going up faster than usual (apart from housing in Oz).   It's our life expectancy that's the issue. People in the 1950's retired at 65 and most died before they were 70.    Now, if you retire at 55, you could potentially spend more years in retirement than you did at work - no wonder the money may not last!

True. Also in days well past many left the workforce early and went on some form of disability or sickness benefit. I knew from memory a number that opted out of the work force early on such benefits, or indeed a neighbour who due to age, being mid fifties at the time, not considered to be likely to get another job when retrenched  at that age, being quietly shunted onto a benefit until retirement age kicked in.    

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4 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

True. Also in days well past many left the workforce early and went on some form of disability or sickness benefit. I knew from memory a number that opted out of the work force early on such benefits, or indeed a neighbour who due to age, being mid fifties at the time, not considered to be likely to get another job when retrenched  at that age, being quietly shunted onto a benefit until retirement age kicked in.    

There was a time when you could get those benefits without being means tested. Nowadays if you're eligible for disability or sickness benefit, you probably really do need it.

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Returns said:

There was a time when you could get those benefits without being means tested. Nowadays if you're eligible for disability or sickness benefit, you probably really do need it.

There was indeed. Probably rather hard to survive these days on such benefits as well. Not sure what the cut off allowance is, but probably not a lot. Those must have seemed like 'Golden Days' for those old enough to have benefited. 

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