Maintaining PR without living here in Aus

[blue121]

Hi, I am currently applying for a 801 permanent partner visa with my Aus citizen wife. After it grants, we want to move back to my home country (UK) for the foreseeable future and then potentially move back to Aus one day. In order to make this feasible, I need to maintain my Aus PR as we will be moving back to the UK before I am eligible for citizenship.

I was just wondering if anyone knows of any potential issues with the following plan:

Although I would meet the criteria outlined in red in the image below, the blue criteria also applies to me (I'll have had PR less than 10 years) and so I imagine this supercedes the red? I really think this could be a lot better explained on the website as it really isn't clear.

Anyway, I simply plan on returning to Aus at least once every 5 years, initially on my 801, and then on multiple RRVs (each one for 12 months from my understandign) in the future once my initial 5 year travel facility on the 801 has expired. From my reading of the criteria below, everytime I re-visit Aus on an RRV, I am entering as a PR and so must also be leaving as a PR. Therefore, these visits will surely "reset"' the date that I "left Australia as a permanent resident"? Or does this date actually refer to the very first time that I left Australia as a PR? Surely, if the date does reset/update each time then there is no difference between the red and blue criteria as 'not absent for periods that equate to 5 years' (blue critieria) would be identical to 'not absent for 5 continuous years' (red criteria)?

I should have no trouble demonstrating substantial ties as my wife is a citizen and has family here.

If/when the time comes to fully move back to Aus, I would just get another RRV and then remain here until I'm eligible for citizenship. If I needed to travel abroad during that time, I could apply for an RRV on the criteria outlined in green.

Many thanks in advance for any help/guidance!

 

 

 

 

[Marisawright]

Your problem will be that dropping in for a short visit does not reset the date

[blue121]

6 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Your problem will be that dropping in for a short visit does not reset the date

How long would I have to stay for in order to reset the date? or does it never reset?

[Marisawright]

34 minutes ago, blue121 said:

How long would I have to stay for in order to reset the date? or does it never reset?

You always have to meet the "2 years out of the previous 5" residency requirement to get a RRV automatically.

If you don't qualify automatically, a RRV is entirely at the discretion of Immigration.  To get one, you need to demonstrate "strong ties" which you can - BUT you will only get a 1 year RRV, which is intended to be just long enough for you to return and get settled again. If you keep applying for repeat RRV's, the department will eventually think "this guy has no genuine commitment to Australia and no intent to settle, he's just using Australia as a convenience" and refuse you.

If you need to leave Australia before you get citizenship and it's going to be a long time before you can return, your best bet is just to apply for a new partner visa when you're finally ready to move back.

[blue121]

12 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

If you need to leave Australia before you get citizenship and it's going to be a long time before you can return, your best bet is just to apply for a new partner visa when you're finally ready to move back.

Thanks for your help, do you have any knowledge of how straight forward this process is likely to be? Would it be just the same as if I were applying for my first ever partner visa or am I likely to run into additional hurdles?

[paulhand]

41 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

If you need to leave Australia before you get citizenship and it's going to be a long time before you can return, your best bet is just to apply for a new partner visa when you're finally ready to move back.

I would not recommend this course of action, unless an RRV application had actually been refused, which would be unlikely if you still fulfilled the criteria for a partner visa.

[Wanderer Returns]

 

1 hour ago, blue121 said:

Hi, I am currently applying for a 801 permanent partner visa with my Aus citizen wife. After it grants, we want to move back to my home country (UK) for the foreseeable future and then potentially move back to Aus one day. In order to make this feasible, I need to maintain my Aus PR as we will be moving back to the UK before I am eligible for citizenship.

I'm guessing you've been resident a couple of years already, so it's my understanding that you'd only have to stay another couple of years before applying for citizenship. In 2006 I returned to the UK for a three-week holiday, which ended up being three months (it was a fabulous summer that year!) - and I nearly didn't return to Australia. In the end I did, and felt very ambivalent about it at first, but I stuck it out for another 18 months to get my Aussie citizenship. We went back to the UK for a few years, but have finally returned to Australia. So glad I hung on for that Aussie passport when I did as it's made life so much easier moving forward, including obtaining PR for my wife.

[Marisawright]

46 minutes ago, paulhand said:

I would not recommend this course of action, unless an RRV application had actually been refused, which would be unlikely if you still fulfilled the criteria for a partner visa.

The OP is talking about leaving Australia now and not coming back for say, 10 or 15 years.   His proposal is to just keep on applying for one-year RRV's during that time with the occasional brief holiday in Oz.   

Would they really keep issuing him with RRV's for all that time?  Or are you saying he should just leave now, not worry about it, and then they'll happily give him an RRV when he's finally ready to come back?

Edited June 28, 2021 by Marisawright

[blue121]

54 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

 

I'm guessing you've been resident a couple of years already, so it's my understanding that you'd only have to stay another couple of years before applying for citizenship. In 2006 I returned to the UK for a three-week holiday, which ended up being three months (it was a fabulous summer that year!) - and I nearly didn't return to Australia. In the end I did, and felt very ambivalent about it at first, but I stuck it out for another 18 months to get my Aussie citizenship. We went back to the UK for a few years, but have finally returned to Australia. So glad I hung on for that Aussie passport when I did as it's made life so much easier moving forward, including obtaining PR for my wife.

I really do miss the long UK summer nights! I've been in Aus almost 3 years now but only as a temporary resident - applied for a partner visa about a year ago as it was the only way for me to stay in the country whilst my wife completed her studies here (moving to the UK was out of the question until she graduated). I've got 1 year left before I can apply for the permanent partner visa (820 > 801) and then another 6-12 months for that to process. I would then need to wait until I've been on that PR 801 for 1 year before applying for my citizenship and then a further ~18 months from application to citizen ceremony. All together that means the earliest I could move back to the UK would be mid-2025 to early 2026 - seems a lifetime away!

With the plan layed out in my original post, I would actually be able to leave after only 1 year as soon as I apply for the permanent partner visa (820 > 801) as that can actually be granted whilst I'm out the country (as long as my wife is still living with me wherever we may be of course), so it's quite a lot extra to wait for citizenship!

Alternatively, I could try my luck at applying for Aus citizenship whilst I'm back in the UK by virtue of ministerial discretion relating to my Aus spouse as an exemption to the general residence requirement but it seems a bit of a long shot. Or as Marisawright mentions, I could just reapply for another partner visa if ever needed (if that's even possible) although I wouldn't be super keen go through the effort and steep financial outlay of that for a second time.

[blue121]

47 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

The OP is talking about leaving Australia now and not coming back for say, 10 or 15 years.   His proposal is to just keep on applying for one-year RRV's during that time with the occasional brief holiday in Oz.   

Would they really keep issuing him with RRV's for all that time?  Or are you saying he should just leave now, not worry about it, and then they'll happily give him an RRV when he's finally ready to come back?

I guess like a lot of visa queries, it's a bit of a grey area and is purely at the discretion of the Australian government / your CO.

As you say, the RRV is "intended to be just long enough for you to return and get settled again" and so they may have grounds to refuse repeat RRVs based on this. However, I would argue that my reason for continuously applying for them is so that I can one day settle in Australia with my Australian wife - I'm not exactly trying to game the system (at least not for the wrong reasons ).

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by blue121

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, blue121 said:

I guess like a lot of visa queries, it's a bit of a grey area and is purely at the discretion of the Australian government / your CO.

As you say, the RRV is "intended to be just long enough for you to return and get settled again" and so they may have grounds to refuse repeat RRVs based on this. However, I would argue that my reason for continuously applying for them is so that I can one day settle in Australia with my Australian wife - I'm not exactly trying to game the system (at least not for the wrong reasons ).

 

Yes you are gaming the system. You are wasting their time applying for RRVs which you have absolutely no intention of using.

You May be missing the fact that you don’t need to maintain your PR/RRV continuously. You can simply go home, let your PR lapse, then years down the track, try for a RRV citing your strong ties. You’d quite likely get a 3 month RRV to allow you to make the move and if not, you do the partner visa again (but then you’ve saved the cost of multiple RRVs in the meantime)

Edited June 28, 2021 by Marisawright

[Wanderer Returns]

21 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Yes you are gaming the system. You are wasting their time applying for RRVs which you have absolutely no intention of using.

You May be missing the fact that you don’t need to maintain your PR/RRV continuously. You can simply go home, let your PR lapse, then years down the track, try for a RRV citing your strong ties. You’d quite likely get a 3 month RRV to allow you to make the move and if not, you do the partner visa again (but then you’ve saved the cost of multiple RRVs in the meantime)

That definitely sounds like the best option given the OP's keenness to return to the UK. You never lose your PR, and an RRV is likely to be granted in future - just as long as you still have your Aussie partner, and are returning with them.

[paulhand]

8 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

You never lose your PR,

Yes you do, if you let your permanent visa expire when you are overseas.

33 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

You’d quite likely get a 3 month RRV

The 3 month RRV is a different animal and actually, in the scenario you mention, it is not appropriate nor indeed, legislatively possible if the applicant has not maintained their permanent resident status and returned to Australia at least once every five years.

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Would they really keep issuing him with RRV's for all that time?  Or are you saying he should just leave now, not worry about it, and then they'll happily give him an RRV when he's finally ready to come back?

As long as they don't move the goalposts, he has "substantial personal ties to Australia, which are of benefit to Australia". If he intends to return periodically, it is better to do so as a permanent resident rather than a tourist. It's a nuanced subject and I can happily do a full hours consult on the issue if required  

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, paulhand said:

As long as they don't move the goalposts, he has "substantial personal ties to Australia, which are of benefit to Australia". If he intends to return periodically, it is better to do so as a permanent resident rather than a tourist. It's a nuanced subject and I can happily do a full hours consult on the issue if required  

I think that would be VERY wise.

[Wanderer Returns]

4 hours ago, paulhand said:

Yes you do, if you let your permanent visa expire when you are overseas.

The 3 month RRV is a different animal and actually, in the scenario you mention, it is not appropriate nor indeed, legislatively possible if the applicant has not maintained their permanent resident status and returned to Australia at least once every five years.

As long as they don't move the goalposts, he has "substantial personal ties to Australia, which are of benefit to Australia". If he intends to return periodically, it is better to do so as a permanent resident rather than a tourist. It's a nuanced subject and I can happily do a full hours consult on the issue if required  

I'm certainly not going to argue with a RMA, but if you can return to Australia on an RRV many years after the initial 5-year travel period has expired, then doesn't that imply that you're still retain the rights of a permanent resident?

[Marisawright]

20 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

I'm certainly not going to argue with a RMA, but if you can return to Australia on an RRV many years after the initial 5-year travel period has expired, then doesn't that imply that you're still retain the rights of a permanent resident?

Let's put it this way.  The rules say that to get a RRV automatically, you must fulfil the residency requirements.  If you don't fulfil the residency requirements, you must show "strong ties of value to Australia", and even then it's at the discretion of the department. 

The longer you've been out of the country, the less likely that they'll give you an RRV - but time and again, when people have come to these forums and said, "I had PR but I haven't lived in Australia for x years, so I think I have to apply for PR all over again",  the RMA's all say, "No, try for a RRV first".  And I've been surprised how many are successful.

 

[Wanderer Returns]

3 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Let's put it this way.  The rules say that to get a RRV automatically, you must fulfil the residency requirements.  If you don't fulfil the residency requirements, you must show "strong ties of value to Australia", and even then it's at the discretion of the department. 

The longer you've been out of the country, the less likely that they'll give you an RRV - but time and again, when people have come to these forums and said, "I had PR but I haven't lived in Australia for x years, so I think I have to apply for PR all over again",  the RMA's all say, "No, try for a RRV first".  And I've been surprised how many are successful.

What happens if you had PR, are refused and an RRv, and then enter Australia on a tourist visa. Technically, if you've been granted PR don't you have the right to remain once your feet are on Australian soil??

[paulhand]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Returns said:

What happens if you had PR, are refused and an RRv, and then enter Australia on a tourist visa. Technically, if you've been granted PR don't you have the right to remain once your feet are on Australian soil??

No … because your permanent resident status has expired. In this scenario you can try again to apply for an RRV but otherwise you are just another tourist, albeit one who used to be a permanent resident. 

[paulhand]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

I'm certainly not going to argue with a RMA, but if you can return to Australia on an RRV many years after the initial 5-year travel period has expired, then doesn't that imply that you're still retain the rights of a permanent resident?

No, it implies you retain the rights of a former permanent resident, who is able to apply to reinstate your permanent resident status if you meet the necessary criteria. 

[rtritudr]

16 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

I'm certainly not going to argue with a RMA, but if you can return to Australia on an RRV many years after the initial 5-year travel period has expired, then doesn't that imply that you're still retain the rights of a permanent resident?

It's conditional though on maintaining strong ties with Australia.  In the OP's case that would be through his marital relationship.

[Tulip1]

3 hours ago, rtritudr said:

It's conditional though on maintaining strong ties with Australia.  In the OP's case that would be through his marital relationship.

The OP probably realises if their marriage fails so does their plan.  

[blue121]

On 28/06/2021 at 14:40, paulhand said:

Yes you do, if you let your permanent visa expire when you are overseas.

The 3 month RRV is a different animal and actually, in the scenario you mention, it is not appropriate nor indeed, legislatively possible if the applicant has not maintained their permanent resident status and returned to Australia at least once every five years.

As long as they don't move the goalposts, he has "substantial personal ties to Australia, which are of benefit to Australia". If he intends to return periodically, it is better to do so as a permanent resident rather than a tourist. It's a nuanced subject and I can happily do a full hours consult on the issue if required  

Thanks very much for your help Paul, if all of this does ever come to fruition then my first step will be getting a consultation from you!

[blue121]

On 29/06/2021 at 14:26, Tulip1 said:

The OP probably realises if their marriage fails so does their plan.  

That reminds me, I'd best go do the washing up