Border opening now mid 2022

[Wanderer Returns]

44 minutes ago, rtritudr said:

I'm detecting more of a fundamental lack of understanding of the situation in Australia, whether it's the left wing media or the right wing media in the UK.  Even Australian journalists posted in the UK have a completely different mindset when it comes to Covid compared to local journalists back home.

The BBC's entire commentary on the way covid has been handled has been along the lines of 'NZ good, Australia bad', ignoring the fact that both countries have virtually had the same policy.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Wanderer Returns

[Marisawright]

22 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

The BBC's entire commentary on the way covid has been handled has been along the lines of 'NZ good, Australia bad', ignoring the fact that both countries have virtually had the same policy.

I haven't seen the coverage but I did come across that attitude.  I think NZ was smarter in the way they did it, because it's the government who issues vouchers for hotel quarantine, then you can't book a flight till you've got a voucher.  So in that way, the government is controlling the numbers and I'm assuming that means flights are more predictable.

Whereas Australia relies on the airlines to manage the quotas and they do that by chopping and changing to maximise their profit.

[Parley]

NZ went with only 1 vaccine. They ordered 10M doses of Pfizer to cover the whole country.

It has worked out for them, but was a risk compared to ordering multiple types.

[ramot]

3 hours ago, Marisawright said:

My thoughts exactly.  But there does seem to be a new class of migrants who think nothing of flying back to the UK every year.   Maybe it's part of an overall change in how overseas holidays are viewed nowadays, almost as essentials rather than luxuries.  I was surprised by how many ordinary wage-earners in the UK have two overseas holidays a year, which (even if they're doing it cheaply), means they're spending a few thousand pounds on holidays every year.  So if they migrate to Australia, they use that same money to fly home and then they get cheap accommodation with the folks, and it's no different.

A far cry from when I was growing up and holidays was a fortnight in a caravan at Arisaig!  

I was working for an airline in the early 1960’s and trust me 2 week Continental holidays were very big business even then. Summer months were manic, and the  holidays were affordable. it went quiet then until the slower snow season started. 

[Marisawright]

35 minutes ago, ramot said:

I was working for an airline in the early 1960’s and trust me 2 week Continental holidays were very big business even then. Summer months were manic, and the  holidays were affordable. it went quiet then until the slower snow season started. 

Not affordable for the likes of my family (4 children and one breadwinner) which I think was not so unusual then. Also these days people do two holidays not just one.

I went on my first package holiday in the 1970s but that was just me and my boyfriend. Even in the 70s most of my married-with-kids friends couldn’t afford an annual overseas holiday. They were mostly teachers or office workers 

[Parley]

We never went on holiday anywhere when i was a kid.

[ramot]

56 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Not affordable for the likes of my family (4 children and one breadwinner) which I think was not so unusual then. Also these days people do two holidays not just one.

I went on my first package holiday in the 1970s but that was just me and my boyfriend. Even in the 70s most of my married-with-kids friends couldn’t afford an annual overseas holiday. They were mostly teachers or office workers 

I can assure you they weren’t up market, 

[Marisawright]

16 minutes ago, ramot said:

I can assure you they weren’t up market, 

I'm sure they weren't - maybe on a teacher's pay, we were just dirt poor.  

Though, where did you fly from?  I can imagine people in the South of England holidaying abroad because there would be a lot more cheap flights from London than from Scottish or North of England airports in those days.  Just the cost and time to get down to London was enough to put us off in those days.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Marisawright

[Tulip1]

I remember the odd friend going abroad for holidays as a child but they were rare.  Most did as we did, a caravan/chalet at a holiday park on the coast for a fortnight.  We always went somewhere different but mainly Devon/Somerset/Norfolk. My family didn’t fly away on holiday until my late teens but we were very lucky to live in Germany for nearly three years in the 70’s.  My parents bought an estate car and a tent and we visited much of Europe.  Military personnel overseas get generous holiday entitlement so my dad had plenty of time off. They were fantastic holidays, little money but tons of freedom. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Tulip1

[ramot]

37 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

I'm sure they weren't - maybe on a teacher's pay, we were just dirt poor.  

Though, where did you fly from?  I can imagine people in the South of England holidaying abroad because there would be a lot more cheap flights from London than from Scottish or North of England airports in those days.  Just the cost and time to get down to London was enough to put us off in those days.

British Eagle flew from London, Liverpool and Glasgow, so a fair demographic mix. 

Lets get away from how poor we all were,  lots of us have some pretty bad memories. I won’t comment further as we are going off topic for which I am equally at fault.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by ramot

[Marisawright]

56 minutes ago, ramot said:

British Eagle flew from London, Liverpool and Glasgow, so a fair demographic mix. 

Lets get away from how poor we all were,  lots of us have some pretty bad memories. I won’t comment further as we are going off topic for which I am equally at fault.

 

No one said they were bad memories, the point was simply that overseas holidays used to be seen as a treat or even extravagance by many, whereas now they’re seen as an entitlement 

[Karl D]

This is turning into a Monty Python sketch..we were so poor we didn’t have ought. 

I don’t think the UK have a negative opinion of how NZ/Aus have handled the pandemic. Just look at the respective death rates, and compare to 130k+  in the UK, it would be foolish to do so. The thing that I think is not being handled right, with respect, is thinking that closing this borders and quarantine hotels will rid the country of the virus. It won’t. Ever. It will find a way in.

Vaccination take up is the only way out of this for the world.

I have accepted my fate that I won’t be able to get down there this year, am still booked late December, but I believe you have to start promoting vaccine take up and get a plan together. Isolation does not work long term.

[Parley]

13 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

No one said they were bad memories, the point was simply that overseas holidays used to be seen as a treat or even extravagance by many, whereas now they’re seen as an entitlement 

I don't know about Europe prices but airfares in Australia were very expensive until about 20 years ago. Before there were budget carriers around.

Now people are used to bargain airfares and flying on holiday is a lot easier to do.

[newjez]

6 hours ago, Parley said:

I don't know about Europe prices but airfares in Australia were very expensive until about 20 years ago. Before there were budget carriers around.

Now people are used to bargain airfares and flying on holiday is a lot easier to do.

It used to be ridiculous. Wasn't worth flying.

[newjez]

6 hours ago, Karl D said:

This is turning into a Monty Python sketch..we were so poor we didn’t have ought. 

I don’t think the UK have a negative opinion of how NZ/Aus have handled the pandemic. Just look at the respective death rates, and compare to 130k+  in the UK, it would be foolish to do so. The thing that I think is not being handled right, with respect, is thinking that closing this borders and quarantine hotels will rid the country of the virus. It won’t. Ever. It will find a way in.

Vaccination take up is the only way out of this for the world.

I have accepted my fate that I won’t be able to get down there this year, am still booked late December, but I believe you have to start promoting vaccine take up and get a plan together. Isolation does not work long term.

With virus numbers sky high in the UK, and restrictions looking likely, what do they do? They take out the health minister. They have been sitting on that footage for months. Timing is no coincidence.

I don't think anyone is looking down on the Australian response. It's a total joke in the UK.

[nomadiccarpenter]

Before Covid, I don't think it's wrong for migrants to expect to see their family every year, despite being as far as 10K away as long as they can afford to do so. I understand this argument during the pandemic, but most migrants didn't know that borders would be closed indefinitely/"forever". To cast judgement that they should've known what they were getting into I find to be pretty ignorant and not a realistic expectation of them. If by this point they don't understand, sure that could be on them. Regardless, there needs to be a plan in place like many other countries are carrying out. We could say migrants shouldn't expect to see family for three to five years due to Covid, but not before or after the pandemic. That's not anyone's business but their own.

Before Covid, the world felt like it was getting smaller. You book a flight early enough, use travel card points, and the rest out of pocket or split with family, it can be manageable. In the next two decades the speed of travel will increase significantly and Australia will never feel far away. Humans have migrated for a hundred thousand or more years and migration will continue to evolve with industry and technology. I think there is obvious resistance to this in pockets of society and government and Covid injected enough fear to instill a more conservative policy, but at the end of the day travel is mostly a right - not a privilege or entitlement. It's in our genes to desire to move where we will live better. I congratulate those who are happy with where they were born. Sometimes I wish for that feeling but we can't stop those from following their heart to where it leads them. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by nomadiccarpenter
grammar

[Marisawright]

12 hours ago, Karl D said:

. The thing that I think is not being handled right, with respect, is thinking that closing this borders and quarantine hotels will rid the country of the virus. It won’t. Ever. It will find a way in.

There are some uneducated people in Australia who think closing the borders was intended to rid the country of the virus.  However, the government never thought that.  The official policy has always been suppression of the virus, not eradication.   Eradication happened by sheer good luck.

The original purpose was to keep the virus out to give the health system time to ramp up, order extra ventilators etc.  Then, when it was so successful, borders were kept closed to give time to develop and distribute vaccines.  Unfortunately, Australia then bet on the wrong horse in the vaccine race, and was slow off the mark in obtaining supplies

What has happened since is that eradication is very, very popular with the electorate and we've reached a point where no deaths are acceptable.  There were 800-odd deaths in the Victorian outbreak and that is still seen as a massive national tragedy.  The Federal Government knows that they will never get 100% of the population vaccinated, so when they open the borders, deaths will happen and they'll get the blame - and there's a federal election next year.  Some are predicting that they will keep the borders closed until they are safely back in power for another term. 

[rtritudr]

20 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

The BBC's entire commentary on the way covid has been handled has been along the lines of 'NZ good, Australia bad', ignoring the fact that both countries have virtually had the same policy.

I actually think that's a fair comment.  Because NZ is dealing with this in a more compassionate, sensible manner when it comes to border controls:

1) Free hotel quarantine for long-term returnees.

2) No out-bound travel ban.

3) Quarantine voucher system instead of completely opaque flight capacity allocations.

It's almost as if they have a left-wing government in control 

Edited June 28, 2021 by rtritudr

[Wanderer Returns]

1 hour ago, rtritudr said:

I actually think that's a fair comment.  Because NZ is dealing with this in a more compassionate, sensible manner when it comes to border controls:

1) Free hotel quarantine for long-term returnees.

2) No out-bound travel ban.

3) Quarantine voucher system instead of completely opaque flight capacity allocations.

It's almost as if they have a left-wing government in control 

The quarantine voucher system is a great idea - I honestly don't know why they haven't implemented it here.

Your other two points are subjective, and most Australians believe the government has got it right.

[NicF]

2 hours ago, rtritudr said:

I actually think that's a fair comment.  Because NZ is dealing with this in a more compassionate, sensible manner when it comes to border controls:

1) Free hotel quarantine for long-term returnees.

This isn't entirely true.  According to the flow chart here https://www.miq.govt.nz/being-in-managed-isolation/charges-for-managed-isolation/who-needs-to-pay-for-managed-isolation/ only New Zealand citizens and PRs who left New Zealand before 11 Aug 2020 might not be liable for charges.  Anyone who left after this time has to pay for hotel quarantine. 

[rtritudr]

23 hours ago, NicF said:

This isn't entirely true.  According to the flow chart here https://www.miq.govt.nz/being-in-managed-isolation/charges-for-managed-isolation/who-needs-to-pay-for-managed-isolation/ only New Zealand citizens and PRs who left New Zealand before 11 Aug 2020 might not be liable for charges.  Anyone who left after this time has to pay for hotel quarantine. 

That's why I said long-term returnees.  If you come back, stay for a few months and then leave again you're not a long-term returnee and should pay up.  The rule is not perfect, but I think it matches up pretty well with the intention of providing free quarantine for those who are returning to seek shelter from the pandemic versus those who're just here for a holiday.  As Gladys said, you have to draw the line somewhere 

[Paul1Perth]

On 27/06/2021 at 12:41, Marisawright said:

I haven't seen the coverage but I did come across that attitude.  I think NZ was smarter in the way they did it, because it's the government who issues vouchers for hotel quarantine, then you can't book a flight till you've got a voucher.  So in that way, the government is controlling the numbers and I'm assuming that means flights are more predictable.

Whereas Australia relies on the airlines to manage the quotas and they do that by chopping and changing to maximise their profit.

They're much smaller and centrally managed. The smaller the place and more remote with controlled borders the easier it should be to manage.

[Paul1Perth]

On 27/06/2021 at 13:59, ramot said:

I was working for an airline in the early 1960’s and trust me 2 week Continental holidays were very big business even then. Summer months were manic, and the  holidays were affordable. it went quiet then until the slower snow season started. 

It was mostly young singles though, who had the spare cash to be able to afford it. My parents didn't go abroad till years after me. They didn't even have passports till they were in their 50's. I used to go to Spain about 3 times a year from about 16, as soon as I started work. I was living with my parents, apprenticeship with the NCB, spare cash. I remember going to Spain, staying in what I thought was a top notch hotel, guaranteed good weather, cheap booze, places open all night for about the same price as a tacky hotel in Blackpool.

Holidays when I was a kid was usually 2 weeks in Rhyll or Skeggy miners camps. A bit like Butlins where my Mum and Dad got rid of me and my sister for a week. Kids were put in dorms with other kids and looked after by what we called an aunty and uncle when we were in the dorm at night. Sounds strange and risky now doesn't it. They could have been the biggest child abusers, I don't know if anyone ever checked. 

Funnily enough I can only remember having good times there too. Would hardly see the parents for the whole week, plenty of kids to hang around with.

All the pits in one area would shut together, bus pick everyone up from the welfare in the village, load of with a couple of crates of beer for the grownups, off we went, playing the game who could see the sea first. If you were old enough, cool enough to be on the back seat it was also spot the hot chick and see if they would wave.

Easily entertained in those days.

[NicF]

20 hours ago, rtritudr said:

That's why I said long-term returnees.  If you come back, stay for a few months and then leave again you're not a long-term returnee and should pay up.  The rule is not perfect, but I think it matches up pretty well with the intention of providing free quarantine for those who are returning to seek shelter from the pandemic versus those who're just here for a holiday.  As Gladys said, you have to draw the line somewhere 

Even long term returnees in New Zealand have to pay if they left New Zealand after 11 Aug 2020.

[Parley]

Australia provided free quarantine for a long time too, giving people who wanted to return the ability to. And they were urged to return at that time.