Dusty Plains Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said: The enthusiasm with which you all welcome more and more restrictions on your liberty is a little chilling. 17 people died within 28 days of a positive covid test yesterday. Death rates are below the normal fr this time of year. We have the vulnerable vaccinated. This is ridiculous. You may be right Jon. However a rather abrupt poster here on PIO quoted the following, several days ago: "The UK (unlike Australia) has enshrined international human rights law into domestic legislation and there is nothing stopping you leaving the UK to live in another country." "Australia is currently breaching its international human rights obligations by not allowing citizens and permanent residents to freely cross borders." I was happy to report on subsequent matters that have clearly countered those statements, and as general information for the less-abrupt among us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Plains Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said: It is a form you can fill in and print at home. As long as you actually have a reason you are not reliant on Government pre-approval. Very unlikely this is as strict as the Australian model. I am just wondering whether or not Tony Abbot is still over there in the background assisting as an advisor to the UK government. It seems that more than a few copy-cat policy decisions have been made in the UK which are already familiar to Australians. These include, for instance, the UK government indicating a points system, openly recognised as "the Australian model". Then only last week a politician named Priti Patel, publicly announced that the UK will adopt an offshore Asylum seeker detention network, similar to the model here. And now the UK is implementing Covid-based policy relating to the control of persons leaving the country. Its no big deal really as governments world-wide often adopt policies that they perceive as working well in other jurisdictions. The only difference here is, that the if the UK has in fact adopted policies such as those mentioned, then it seems to have elected to take a watered down version on board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 21 minutes ago, Dusty Plains said: You may be right Jon. However a rather abrupt poster here on PIO quoted the following, several days ago: "The UK (unlike Australia) has enshrined international human rights law into domestic legislation and there is nothing stopping you leaving the UK to live in another country." "Australia is currently breaching its international human rights obligations by not allowing citizens and permanent residents to freely cross borders." I was happy to report on subsequent matters that have clearly countered those statements, and as general information for the less-abrupt among us. The difference at law is that, because the UK has enshrined its international human rights obligations into domestic legislation, UK citizens can challenge a travel ban in the UK courts. Australians have no such recourse and have to go to the International Human Rights Court to complain. The UK currently allows international travel for a much broader range of essential reasons and the process to get out is much easier. My legal view is that the UK is not in breach of its IHR obligations because the measures it has put in place are proportionate to the risk. New Zealand which has also adopted the IHR conventions into domestic law has not banned anyone from leaving NZ but quite rightly imposes quarantine on those entering. It does not have caps on arrivals. The wider world considers NZ to be the gold standard for Covid management. My assertion all along has been that Australia had gone too far with the imposed measures, particularly in relation to the right to leave Australia. I sometimes wonder whether the outward travel restriction is for economic reasons as a mass exodus of foreign healthcare professionals who seem to make up the majority of those employed in public health would leave Medicare on its knees. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Plains Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Loopylu said: The difference at law is that, because the UK has enshrined its international human rights obligations into domestic legislation, UK citizens can challenge a travel ban in the UK courts. Australians have no such recourse and have to go to the International Human Rights Court to complain. The UK currently allows international travel for a much broader range of essential reasons and the process to get out is much easier. My legal view is that the UK is not in breach of its IHR obligations because the measures it has put in place are proportionate to the risk. New Zealand which has also adopted the IHR conventions into domestic law has not banned anyone from leaving NZ but quite rightly imposes quarantine on those entering. It does not have caps on arrivals. The wider world considers NZ to be the gold standard for Covid management. My assertion all along has been that Australia had gone too far with the imposed measures, particularly in relation to the right to leave Australia. I sometimes wonder whether the outward travel restriction is for economic reasons as a mass exodus of foreign healthcare professionals who seem to make up the majority of those employed in public health would leave Medicare on its knees. I don't think that Australia went too far at all, and there are a number of reasons for that. Unlike the UK, Aust was not just another whistle stop for the hoards of mobile Europeans (at that time the epicentre of Covid transmissions) and so Aust could throw up the barriers, because it was in a position to do so. Equally, going too far, as you have suggested, ultimately contributed to what became a Covid safe haven. The UK was still allowing plane loads of Europeans and others into the UK only a month or so ago. Lets not go into comparable mortality rates for goodness sake. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 39 minutes ago, Loopylu said: I sometimes wonder whether the outward travel restriction is for economic reasons as a mass exodus of foreign healthcare professionals who seem to make up the majority of those employed in public health would leave Medicare on its knees. An odd statement. Foreigners do not need permission to leave. Also, doctors are well paid in Australia by comparison to the UK, for instance, so what would lead them to depart? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Marisawright said: An odd statement. Foreigners do not need permission to leave. Also, doctors are well paid in Australia by comparison to the UK, for instance, so what would lead them to depart? Yes they do if they are dual citizens or are permanent residents which the majority would be. Only temporary visa holders are allowed to leave freely. Everyone else has to apply for a special exemption. I referred to medical professionals which is not just doctors. There are a number of doctors and other healthcare professionals who have left Australia for overseas because strangely not everyone is motivated by money and they are returning to help with the pandemic and also progress their training. My Sister in Law who works for Qantas has assisted a number of doctors with their escape plans... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Plains Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 38 minutes ago, Loopylu said: Yes they do if they are dual citizens or are permanent residents which the majority would be. Only temporary visa holders are allowed to leave freely. Everyone else has to apply for a special exemption. I referred to medical professionals which is not just doctors. There are a number of doctors and other healthcare professionals who have left Australia for overseas because strangely not everyone is motivated by money and they are returning to help with the pandemic and also progress their training. My Sister in Law who works for Qantas has assisted a number of doctors with their escape plans... Doctors nurses and other health service people did leave Australia to work in Europe and the UK during the height of the Covid crisis. Many did so for the reasons you have stated and that was to be in the thick of things and to learn more about the impacts posed by Covid-19 on the population and the health systems that support the population. They did not necessarily have to have an escape plan. Last year many nurses from Tasmania and Western Australia volunteered to come to assist the health systems the Eastern states, to learn and to be in the thick of it. Surely you have heard of the NGO Medicins Sans Frontieres? In the recent bushfires in Australia there were many hundreds of international firefighters both professional and volunteer that made their way to Australia for the same reason, namely to be in the thick of it. Some lost their lives here. Equally hundreds of local firefighters regularly volunteer to North America to assist the US Forestry firefighting teams during the recent disastrous fires in California. Perhaps you may have heard of the NGO Pompiers Sans Frontieres? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: It is a form you can fill in and print at home. As long as you actually have a reason you are not reliant on Government pre-approval. Very unlikely this is as strict as the Australian model. Exactly right - the UK's approach is proportionate to the risk and does not treat everyone like potential criminals. I think the threat of a 5000 pound fine would be enough to stop anyone making a false declaration. I am currently undertaking 10 days isolation in my parents' home in Wales. I have not left the house/garden since arriving and have not been tempted really to do so. Why the majority have to suffer for the misdeeds of a few in Australia is beyond me. Friends of ours returned from Italy to Australia with Covid in March 2020 and managed to successfully self-isolate without infecting anyone else. Their son moved out before they arrived and they did not see anyone until they both produced two negative Covid tests each. The Australian government should at least consider using tracking devices to keep the cost and stress of quarantine down. I have taken my Day 2 Covid test (negative - surprise, surprise) and will do Day 8 tomorrow. Interestingly, the Covid test goes by priority post to Milton Keynes and I got my results by email in less than 12 hours. The results of the Australian pre-travel equivalent that cost me $150 and where the distance from test centre to lab was approximately 30km was supposed to arrive by email within 24 hours but took 36 hours. Surprising, seeing as how few of these tests are actually required to be processed due to travel restrictions. The broadband here in rural Wales is amazing too. I did Zoom church here on Sunday and the picture and sound quality was 10x better than what I get doing Zoom church in SEQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: The enthusiasm with which you all welcome more and more restrictions on your liberty is a little chilling. 17 people died within 28 days of a positive covid test yesterday. Death rates are below the normal fr this time of year. We have the vulnerable vaccinated. This is ridiculous. No deaths at all in Wales yesterday and, as you say, the death rate is well below what it would normally be for the time of year at the moment. There is light at the end of the tunnel! Edited March 23, 2021 by Loopylu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacGyver Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, Loopylu said: Exactly right - the UK's approach is proportionate to the risk and does not treat everyone like potential criminals. I think the threat of a 5000 pound fine would be enough to stop anyone making a false declaration. I am currently undertaking 10 days isolation in my parents' home in Wales. I have not left the house/garden since arriving and have not been tempted really to do so. Why the majority have to suffer for the misdeeds of a few in Australia is beyond me. Friends of ours returned from Italy to Australia with Covid in March 2020 and managed to successfully self-isolate without infecting anyone else. Their son moved out before they arrived and they did not see anyone until they both produced two negative Covid tests each. The Australian government should at least consider using tracking devices to keep the cost and stress of quarantine down. I have taken my Day 2 Covid test (negative - surprise, surprise) and will do Day 8 tomorrow. Interestingly, the Covid test goes by priority post to Milton Keynes and I got my results by email in less than 12 hours. The results of the Australian pre-travel equivalent that cost me $150 and where the distance from test centre to lab was approximately 30km was supposed to arrive by email within 24 hours but took 36 hours. Surprising, seeing as how few of these tests are actually required to be processed due to travel restrictions. The broadband here in rural Wales is amazing too. I did Zoom church here on Sunday and the picture and sound quality was 10x better than what I get doing Zoom church in SEQ. To summarise, everything Uk is fantastic, everything Australian is awful. You make some interesting points worth debating, but they are lost and obscured by emotive language and negativity. It is possible to love the UK without the need to insult Australia to justify your position. The last Covid test I had in WA (due to having a cold) was undertaken at a drive through facility around midday and the results sent by sms around 7.30pm that same day (7.5 hours turnaround). Electronic tagging is certainly a good option, although it can only tell you that the person is at home, it cannot tell you if anyone is visiting the home that could go on to spread the virus. I currently receive download speeds of 253Mbps with iinet (at last speed test). I used to stream comfortably at 50Mbps with no issue so this current trial is more than I could ever need. I do not feel like a criminal, I am able to work, play, eat, drink, meet friends, attend sporting events and concerts with tens of thousands of people and travel across a continent unrestricted and free from danger of ill health. If international travel is still restricted next year (when the population is vaccinated) then I will start to agree with your assessment on that aspect and agitate for change. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 I did not say everything in the UK is fantastic and everything in Australia is bad. You don't like my world view so you read that into my statements. I simply stated how I have found things recently and yes, the broadband is amazing here in a very rural location and fast compared to the NBN we have at home in Australia's third largest city. I have just phoned the local health board and been put on the reserve list for my first Covid vaccine. They will call me when a slot becomes available at the Carmarthen Showgrounds drive-through vaccination centre. I enquired about how to get vaccinated if possible before leaving Australia shortly before I left and was told by my GP that they had absolutely no clue what the government roll out would be but that they were rather annoyed that they were not seen as a priority to get a vaccine when they are frontline health workers and deal with all comers. I see that only 1000 GP practices have the vaccine and none of the ones that our family usually frequent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 The UK has done very very well in vaccine procurement and roll out. No doubt about that. World leading. This is going to be a huge benefit to the UK in the coming year and years. However you cannot argue with the Australian approach, as it has lost a tiny number of people to Covid. The UK frankly has been slow to react all the way through, and has wasted billions on measures which probably had little effect. They had a very different problem to deal with of course, but it is hard to condemn the Australia approach, and the voters seem to agree in the main. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) Seems to be another Australia bashing uk is better thread. No issues if it’s not place for all but some of us are happy here and more than happy of the approach Australia’s taken with covid, I will happily take travel restrictions if it prevents 1000’s of deaths. Looyplo one thing you are not taking on board or choosing to ignore is the fact that all major Air lines have parked their aircraft up until things get back to normal thus mean far fewer flights available and far less passengers able to board flights to meet covid restrictions. your sil is very lucky to still be working at Quants as most have been laid off. I know of pilots working at Center link , Driving trains etc , talking to them they are realistic with what’s happened not moan moan moan. It’s not going to change as pilots and crew not getting flight hours to keep up aviation requirements. Theses are unprecedented times which you are failing or choosing not to accept, you still haven’t answered who should get the vaccine first ? Edited March 23, 2021 by Rallyman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Looyplo Quick search https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/getting-vaccinated-for-covid-19/when-will-i-get-a-covid-19-vaccine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 hours ago, Loopylu said: Why the majority have to suffer for the misdeeds of a few in Australia is beyond me. Because it became very obvious from the beginning that "misdeeds" were too common. The very first positive cases in our local area were told to isolate after testing but were found to have ignored this and mixed in high density areas such as supermarkets and nightclubs. The loved ones of the 126,000 + who have died in the UK - and the very many now suffering the debilitating effects of "long Covid" - would be justified in wondering why they have had to suffer for the misdeeds of others in the UK. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Rallyman said: Seems to be another Australia bashing uk is better thread. No issues if it’s not place for all but some of us are happy here and more than happy of the approach Australia’s taken with covid, I will happily take travel restrictions if it prevents 1000’s of deaths. Looyplo one thing you are not taking on board or choosing to ignore is the fact that all major Air lines have parked their aircraft up until things get back to normal thus mean far fewer flights available and far less passengers to meet covid restrictions. your sil is very lucky to still be working at Quants as most have been laid off. I know of pilots working at Center link , Driving trains etc , talking to them they are realistic with what’s happened not moan moan moan. you still haven’t answered who should get the vaccine first ? My SIL has worked 2 weeks in every 6 for Qantas in ticketing Her job disappears at the end of March as Qantas is closing the domestic ticket office permanently (not just for Covid). As she ordinarily works at the International Airport Qantas will not make her redundant. She has applied for many jobs, studied and got new qualifications but no alternative work for her. Probably because she is a 60 year old woman. Older women are now the highest group on welfare benefits.... age discrimination is rife. If you read my posts properly you would see that I believe the vaccine should go to the most vulnerable and those most at risk of coming into contact with Covid first. ScoMo and the other pollies do not fall into these categories. The doctor at the PA in Brisbane who contracted Covid from people she was treating should have been inoculated well before those reprobates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Plains Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Rallyman said: Seems to be another Australia bashing uk is better thread. No issues if it’s not place for all but some of us are happy here and more than happy of the approach Australia’s taken with covid, I will happily take travel restrictions if it prevents 1000’s of deaths. Looyplo one thing you are not taking on board or choosing to ignore is the fact that all major Air lines have parked their aircraft up until things get back to normal thus mean far fewer flights available and far less passengers to meet covid restrictions. your sil is very lucky to still be working at Quants as most have been laid off. I know of pilots working at Center link , Driving trains etc , talking to them they are realistic with what’s happened not moan moan moan. you still haven’t answered who should get the vaccine first ? Anyone is entitled to have a gripe about their adopted country. Good for them, I say, as its not the greatest place to live but where is the greatest place to live? Its a good deal better than most though and that factor alone will do me. Edited March 23, 2021 by Dusty Plains Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Loopylu said: My SIL has worked 2 weeks in every 6 for Qantas in ticketing Her job disappears at the end of March as Qantas is closing the domestic ticket office permanently (not just for Covid). As she ordinarily works at the International Airport Qantas will not make her redundant. She has applied for many jobs, studied and got new qualifications but no alternative work for her. Probably because she is a 60 year old woman. Older women are now the highest group on welfare benefits.... age discrimination is rife. If you read my posts properly you would see that I believe the vaccine should go to the most vulnerable and those most at risk of coming into contact with Covid first. ScoMo and the other pollies do not fall into these categories. The doctor at the PA in Brisbane who contracted Covid from people she was treating should have been inoculated well before those reprobates. So you think everything should just carry on as normal , no travel restrictions let’s just roll the dice and take our chance ? It was very clear that Scomo was having vacation to promote it saying it was safe as far too many out there with conspiracy theories about it. you are the only person I know who has complained about him having vaccine. The link spells it out exactly as your wish but you still complain most vulnerable first and front line workers. You can choose to make it political but that’s simply not the case , your anger and frustration are coming out with your current situation. Edited March 23, 2021 by Rallyman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 @Loopylou, you mentioned that New Zealand is the gold standard. I just checked their rules. They don't have caps. BUT you will not be allowed on a plane to New Zealand unless you have obtained a voucher for hotel quarantine. The NZ govt website says quarantine places are "extremely limited". So it's exactly the same as Australia, just administered differently (because the Australian caps are determined by the number of available quarantine places). Flights are still subject to cancellation and change, because they can't predict how many people will get vouchers. You are right, they don't prevent anyone leaving. But when you think about it, if there were no controls on people leaving Australia now, you'd be in an even worse position than you are now - you'd be competing for a return flight with far more people. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Dusty Plains said: Anyone is entitled to have a gripe about their adopted country. Good for them, I say, as its not the greatest place to live but where is the greatest place to live? Its a good deal better than most though and that factor alone will do me. I have no issues with a gripe but to carry on about the approach Australia has taken and continues to take about covid are not warranted imho. As said I will take the travel restrictions if it means 1000’s of lives are saved , I am desperate to get back to see family in uk but am realistic in the situation the world currently finds its self . Thank the lord for face time . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 So, if NZ is essentially the same, the question remains - whose approach should Australia have followed instead? I look around the world and it seems that every other country has suffered thousands of deaths. So it seems what you are saying, LoopyLou, is that Australia should have let thousands of people die without their loved ones, just so a smaller number of people like you could be with their loved ones. Can you explain how that is not selfish? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Marisawright said: So, if NZ is essentially the same, the question remains - whose approach should Australia have followed instead? I look around the world and it seems that every other country has suffered thousands of deaths. So it seems what you are saying, LoopyLou, is that Australia should have let thousands of people die without their loved ones, just so a smaller number of people like you could be with their loved ones. Can you explain how that is not selfish? Boy - you really love to put the boot in don’t you Marina? I think it is selfish that 30% of the population born overseas are deprived of their fundamental human right to a family life. We are never going to agree so I will be removing myself from any other notifications about this thread because I have found much of what has been said about me here both vindictive and unkind. Have a lovely blinkered life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Loopylu said: Boy - you really love to put the boot in don’t you Marina? I think it is selfish that 30% of the population born overseas are deprived of their fundamental human right to a family life. We are never going to agree so I will be removing myself from any other notifications about this thread because I have found much of what has been said about me here both vindictive and unkind. Have a lovely blinkered life. You haven't answered my point because you can't deny the logic. I know you are in pain and I have been there, but that is no justification for blaming the Australian government. Blame Covid. Australia and NZ have saved the lives of thousands of their residents by the measures they have taken. Which people would you like to volunteer for death so all those born overseas can travel freely? As a Christian, you should understand the value of making personal sacrifices for the sake of the greater good. Edited March 23, 2021 by Marisawright 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Loopylu said: Boy - you really love to put the boot in don’t you Marina? I think it is selfish that 30% of the population born overseas are deprived of their fundamental human right to a family life. We are never going to agree so I will be removing myself from any other notifications about this thread because I have found much of what has been said about me here both vindictive and unkind. Have a lovely blinkered life. I have to question who is blinkered. I wrote on another post in response to your post ‘I realise from previous posts you are extremely unlikely to be swayed from your opinions’ Nothing has changed, my way or no way. Edited March 23, 2021 by ramot 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Plains Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, ramot said: I have to question who is blinkered. The answer goes something like this: Pot, Kettle, Black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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