MacGyver Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Loopylu said: You are exactly right. Also, when Covid started the UK was still part of the EU and it would have been illegal to close the borders to people from Europe. Unlike Australia, the UK abides by its international and domestic legal commitments. The UNHCR regularly cites Australia as being in violation of human rights treaties it has signed around treatment of refugees, freedom to cross borders and charging foreign residents for accessing public education. Australia is a law unto itself, which as a lawyer who has a duty to uphold the law, I find deeply disturbing. A number of European countries closed their borders while part of the EU. The UKs reputation is not unblemished when it comes to honouring international treaties: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/world/europe/northern-island-great-britain.html Similarly, although you mentioned refugees specifically, the UKs reputation with regards to principles enshrined in other UN conventions is far from perfect: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/un-poverty-austerity-uk-universal-credit-report-philip-alston-a8924576.html https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2019/may/uk-violating-its-human-rights-obligations-finds-un-poverty-expert 4 hours ago, Loopylu said: I don't agree with you that ScoMo was setting an example. The Queen (who as far as I am aware is still Australia's head of state) had her vaccine (and owing to her age (over 90) it was right that she was an early uptaker). There was no need for ScoMo to do it. They could have asked John Howard to step in. ScoMo and his ilk look after number one first and they know how to "spin" a situation to their advantage.... I think very few people are motivated by the queens actions outside England. Scott Morrison did the same as numerous elected leaders around the world to try and demonstrate confidence in the vaccines. It may not have been particularly effective but it seems harsh to judge him on it when others have done the same. 4 hours ago, Loopylu said: Australia is also cutting Jobkeeper at the end of this month when there are still numerous people whose jobs will not return for months, maybe, years. My Sister in Law works for Qantas international and she will lose all income on 31 March. She would love Qantas to make her redundant so that she has some money to live on while (at age 60 and with a mortgage) she tries to find other work but Qantas won't because she may be still needed, who knows when. Australia’s unemployment rate has dropped below the pre Covid unemployment rate. Ending jobseeker will have an impact, but it is difficult to justify maintaining it given these figures. Would this be of benefit to your sister, ongoing government funding to maintain jobs for those employed by Qantas: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-19/international-qantas-workers-500-week-coronavirus-payment/13261910 Australia and the UK are wealthy and safe countries. Neither is perfect and one isn’t better than the other. If you are deeply unhappy living in one of them, it may be an idea to live in the other. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 1 hour ago, MacGyver said: A number of European countries closed their borders while part of the EU. The UKs reputation is not unblemished when it comes to honouring international treaties: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/world/europe/northern-island-great-britain.html Similarly, although you mentioned refugees specifically, the UKs reputation with regards to principles enshrined in other UN conventions is far from perfect: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/un-poverty-austerity-uk-universal-credit-report-philip-alston-a8924576.html https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2019/may/uk-violating-its-human-rights-obligations-finds-un-poverty-expert I think very few people are motivated by the queens actions outside England. Scott Morrison did the same as numerous elected leaders around the world to try and demonstrate confidence in the vaccines. It may not have been particularly effective but it seems harsh to judge him on it when others have done the same. Australia’s unemployment rate has dropped below the pre Covid unemployment rate. Ending jobseeker will have an impact, but it is difficult to justify maintaining it given these figures. Would this be of benefit to your sister, ongoing government funding to maintain jobs for those employed by Qantas: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-19/international-qantas-workers-500-week-coronavirus-payment/13261910 Australia and the UK are wealthy and safe countries. Neither is perfect and one isn’t better than the other. If you are deeply unhappy living in one of them, it may be an idea to live in the other. I don’t see any UNHCR citations of fundamental human rights law breaches for the UK in your post. The UK does not lock up genuine refugees indefinitely. The UK is not perfect but the fact you could pull up those reports shows that issues are not swept under the carpet as they are by the Australian media. People in Australia (including British immigrants) have no conscience and so long as they are OK, they wash their hands of their responsibilities towards the rest of the world and those less fortunate than themselves. As for me relocating to the UK, I would love nothing more but my children are at uni/late high school and my Australian husband is about to start dialysis. Hardly the time to up sticks or are you suggesting I abandon them? It’s typical Aussie to just trot out the ‘if you don’t love it, leave’. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 14 hours ago, Quoll said: So sorry this is happening to you Loopylu - I've seen quite a few posts of people who have been allowed out on compassionate grounds so it's very sad that you arent getting the same leeway. I missed my dad's funeral - c'est la vie, only 15 would have been allowed to have been there and the thought of a couple of weeks quarantine at each end wasnt going to make it worth it. Easy for me as I didnt know he was going to die, he just popped off quietly like he always said he would. I hope you get back to see your dad and maybe get to his funeral - pancreatic cancer is not a good way to go and so hard for everyone around him. She has stated she is back in uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoll Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 9 minutes ago, Rallyman said: She has stated she is back in uk So I see! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 9 hours ago, Loopylu said: You are exactly right. Also, when Covid started the UK was still part of the EU and it would have been illegal to close the borders to people from Europe. Unlike Australia, the UK abides by its international and domestic legal commitments. The UNHCR regularly cites Australia as being in violation of human rights treaties it has signed around treatment of refugees, freedom to cross borders and charging foreign residents for accessing public education. Australia is a law unto itself, which as a lawyer who has a duty to uphold the law, I find deeply disturbing. Uk had left the eu , first case confirmed in uk 29 jan , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Loopylu said: I don’t see any UNHCR citations of fundamental human rights law breaches for the UK in your post. The UK does not lock up genuine refugees indefinitely. The UK is not perfect but the fact you could pull up those reports shows that issues are not swept under the carpet as they are by the Australian media. People in Australia (including British immigrants) have no conscience and so long as they are OK, they wash their hands of their responsibilities towards the rest of the world and those less fortunate than themselves. As for me relocating to the UK, I would love nothing more but my children are at uni/late high school and my Australian husband is about to start dialysis. Hardly the time to up sticks or are you suggesting I abandon them? It’s typical Aussie to just trot out the ‘if you don’t love it, leave’. How did you feel when Macron closed the French border to returning French citizens from uk I think for 4 days last year , people tried to pin that on Brexit but was totally a covid decision. The world is totally upside down with covid we are not living in normal times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 11 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: That is simply not true. If the UK did what Australia did people would literally starve to death and die from lack of medications. We are fully integrated with the European supply chain. Thousands of trucks with drivers have to come in on a daily basis. We literally don't have enough trucks, drivers or other means to import essential goods without this. Imports to Australia are basically all containerised in one way or another and the domestic supply chain manages all the Australian logistics. That is not to say we could not have limited flights from say Brazil earlier, but to imply this would have enabled an AU or NZ style zero covid strategy is simply a lie. Australia never stopped importation of goods , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Loopylu said: I don't agree with you that ScoMo was setting an example. I said his intention was to set an example. I didn't say I agreed with that idea, in fact I do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 46 minutes ago, Rallyman said: Uk had left the eu , first case confirmed in uk 29 jan , And there was a transition period until 31 December 2020 when the free trade and movement of persons continued as agreed as part of the leaving deal.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 31 minutes ago, Rallyman said: How did you feel when Macron closed the French border to returning French citizens from uk I think for 4 days last year , people tried to pin that on Brexit but was totally a covid decision. The world is totally upside down with covid we are not living in normal times. 4 days versus 12 months and still continuing. Hardly comparable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freemantle Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 10 hours ago, Loopylu said: Thanks for sharing your experience. I am sorry for your loss and what you went through. I would be more comfortable with Australia's approach if it treated all people trapped here the same. However, it has left temporary visa holders and international students who lost their jobs with no financial support and simply telling people who have lived here 5+ years or are semester away from getting their qualification to leave when there are no flights and their lives are here is inhuman. Canada and the UK gave temporary visa holders the same furlough pay as citizens. Australia is also cutting Jobkeeper at the end of this month when there are still numerous people whose jobs will not return for months, maybe, years. My Sister in Law works for Qantas international and she will lose all income on 31 March. She would love Qantas to make her redundant so that she has some money to live on while (at age 60 and with a mortgage) she tries to find other work but Qantas won't because she may be still needed, who knows when. https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-crew-to-get-500-per-week-in-jobkeeper-replacement-20210318-p57byb.html QF and JQ International are getting $500 per week for another 7 months! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 10 minutes ago, Loopylu said: And there was a transition period until 31 December 2020 when the free trade and movement of persons continued as agreed as part of the leaving deal.... Closing border was down to covid nothing to do with free trade etc , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Loopylu said: 4 days versus 12 months and still continuing. Hardly comparable! Macron still closed the border you have been able to get to uk is your gripe that you can’t get back to Australia? Edited March 19, 2021 by Rallyman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 That’s less than current rate of Jobseeker. Won’t even cover the mortgage.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Rallyman said: Macron still closed the border you have been able to get to uk is your gripe that you can’t get back to Australia? I regularly posted on here way before my father became terminally ill about the illegality under IHR law of arrivals caps. So, no my gripe is not about my personal situation per se. I just happen now to potentially be in a position where my return date to Australia could be uncertain due to the travel restrictions. It will be hard if my husband starts dialysis before I am able to return. It’s just another reason why I rue the day that I agreed to move to my husband’s homeland.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 6 minutes ago, Loopylu said: I regularly posted on here way before my father became terminally ill about the illegality under IHR law of arrivals caps. So, no my gripe is not about my personal situation per se. I just happen now to potentially be in a position where my return date to Australia could be uncertain due to the travel restrictions. It will be hard if my husband starts dialysis before I am able to return. It’s just another reason why I rue the day that I agreed to move to my husband’s homeland.... Sorry you are not coming across like that in all previous posts in this thread . Have you tried to book a flight as by your post you have not done it ? sorry but I am happy we have restricted flights into country to prevent the mess that uk and eu find itself in with death tolls and overall cases. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rallyman said: Sorry you are not coming across like that in all previous posts in this thread . Have you tried to book a flight as by your post you have not done it ? sorry but I am happy we have restricted flights into country to prevent the mess that uk and eu find itself in with death tolls and overall cases. I have a return flight booked already. However, there is no guarantee that I will be on that flight due to the caps on arrivals. My Irish friend was bumped 4 times from her booked flights last year. She ended up staying another 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacGyver Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Loopylu said: I don’t see any UNHCR citations of fundamental human rights law breaches for the UK in your post. The UK does not lock up genuine refugees indefinitely. The UK is not perfect but the fact you could pull up those reports shows that issues are not swept under the carpet as they are by the Australian media. People in Australia (including British immigrants) have no conscience and so long as they are OK, they wash their hands of their responsibilities towards the rest of the world and those less fortunate than themselves. As for me relocating to the UK, I would love nothing more but my children are at uni/late high school and my Australian husband is about to start dialysis. Hardly the time to up sticks or are you suggesting I abandon them? It’s typical Aussie to just trot out the ‘if you don’t love it, leave’. Australia’s record on treatment of refugees is appalling, I agree. What I’m saying is the UK also has failings and those reports into the Uk resulted from a UN investigation, not a voluntary admission from the UK government. To say all Australians and all British migrants living in Australia have no conscience is of course nonsense. As I have said before, I empathise with your current situation, but you appear to be misdirecting your grief into a rage at Australia and anyone who has the audacity to live there. Grief is hard and overwhelming, but it is not a valid reason to insult others. Like alcohol, social media is often best avoided when angry. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: If the UK did what Australia did people would literally starve to death and die from lack of medications. ....Thousands of trucks with drivers have to come in on a daily basis. We literally don't have enough trucks, drivers or other means to import essential goods without this. You're right, fair point about the trucks, that does mean they couldn't have replicated the full shutdown declared by Australia and New Zealand. However, if stopping all non-essential travel is such a useless measure, why are they doing it now? Edited March 20, 2021 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 20 minutes ago, Marisawright said: You're right, fair point about the trucks, that does mean they couldn't have replicated the full shutdown declared by Australia and New Zealand. However, if stopping all non-essential travel is such a useless measure, why are they doing it now? The uk never stopped trucks coming into the country, Australia has never stopped importation of supplies , you can’t drive a truck supplied with food into Australia like you can from mainland Europe to uk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rallyman said: The uk never stopped trucks coming into the country, Australia has never stopped importation of supplies , you can’t drive a truck supplied with food into Australia like you can from mainland Europe to uk Yes, that’s what I said. But nw there are restrictions in the uk on who can leave etc, to restrict non-essential travel. If there was no point doing that earlier why are they doing it now? Edited March 20, 2021 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 4 hours ago, MacGyver said: Australia’s record on treatment of refugees is appalling, I agree. What I’m saying is the UK also has failings and those reports into the Uk resulted from a UN investigation, not a voluntary admission from the UK government. To say all Australians and all British migrants living in Australia have no conscience is of course nonsense. As I have said before, I empathise with your current situation, but you appear to be misdirecting your grief into a rage at Australia and anyone who has the audacity to live there. Grief is hard and overwhelming, but it is not a valid reason to insult others. Like alcohol, social media is often best avoided when angry. You are right that I should avoid social media when feeling down. I am not really saying all Australians although it could read that way but a lot of people I encounter in that country often don't have any idea or care what is happening elsewhere in the world or the atrocities that are committed by their government. Just so long as they are OK.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip1 Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 3 hours ago, Marisawright said: Yes, that’s what I said. But nw there are restrictions in the uk on who can leave etc, to restrict non-essential travel. If there was no point doing that earlier why are they doing it now? I think there was a point in doing that earlier but they didn’t and it’s obvious now that was a big mistake. It came late but late is better than never. A harsh lesson was learnt and acted on. I think the borders remaining open was a big mistake that cost the country dearly. Why that happened for so long will be a mystery to many I think. We had the big advantage of being an island but didn’t utilise that advantage. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 5 hours ago, Marisawright said: Yes, that’s what I said. But nw there are restrictions in the uk on who can leave etc, to restrict non-essential travel. If there was no point doing that earlier why are they doing it now? Trucks bringing in supplies would be classified as essential work ,what was said about stopping trucks is simply not true in either country. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Rallyman said: Trucks bringing in supplies would be classified as essential work ,what was said about stopping trucks is simply not true in either country. No one ever said it was, I think you misunderstood someone's post. To recap: I said that the UK could have closed its borders back in March, like Australia, because it's an island. Jon pointed out that there is a difference - goods arrive on the ships to Australia via container, whereas goods arrive on the ships to the UK in trucks. It wouldn't be practical to change that, so the thousands of truckers would have to be allowed exemptions. However, the UK could still have stopped all non-essential travel (as they pretty much have now) and introduced proper quarantine procedures, and that would have reduced the load considerably compared to allowing many thousands to arrive and also to transit through UK airports. LoopyLou claims that would be against EU laws but other EU countries have closed their borders too without any consequences, so that doesn't convince me. Edited March 20, 2021 by Marisawright 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.