Tulip1 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 5 hours ago, Loopylu said: Ask the family of the young man who killed himself while quarantining in Melbourne.... He could also ask the many thousands of people happily walking about who would say it was ok, a bit boring perhaps but ok. That way would give a better statistic on how bad it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 14 hours ago, MacGyver said: I agree with almost everything you have said here. I’ve been a very strong supporter of the zero Covid strategy up to this point (and for the rest of this year) as I felt the benefits of closed borders and the risks of opening up were too great. By year end, all Australians who want a vaccine will have had one (or two), and at that point I feel the benefit of closed borders and the risk to society from open borders, will be greatly diminished. If the vaccines perform as intended, Covid will become a mild infection that is not life threatening to the majority of the population (much like seasonal flu). It is difficult to justify keeping borders closed in that scenario. With ongoing seasonal boosters for emerging strains, and possibly vaccination passports (a whole other debate), the risk to the population would surely be low? Yes there will still be deaths, but as you say, at some point difficult discussions will be required as to how many deaths are acceptable. When Australia does open their doors I imagine there will there will be a huge rush of anti vaxers heading for the vaccine centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 47 minutes ago, Tulip1 said: He could also ask the many thousands of people happily walking about who would say it was ok, a bit boring perhaps but ok. That way would give a better statistic on how bad it is. An Irish friend had to do 14 days quarantine last year when she returned from her father’s funeral. She found it very hard as she was still grieving but could not reunite with her family. Nothing to do except dwell on what she had just been through. Fortunately one of the quarantine nurses was also Irish and got her moved to a room with fresh air. Otherwise she might have self-harmed too. Try to put yourself in other people’s shoes. We are not all built the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Loopylu said: An Irish friend had to do 14 days quarantine last year when she returned from her father’s funeral. She found it very hard as she was still grieving but could not reunite with her family. I'm sure it is hard for many people. Unfortunately, they tried letting people self-quarantine at home, and found that a number of selfish, entitled people didn't bother. That's why hotel quarantine became necessary - a minority of idiots spoiling it for the rest of us. I'm really not clear what you think the Australian government should have done. If you look at Canada, they had slightly softer closed borders and self-quarantine and they've had over 20,000 deaths. In proportion to population, Australia would've had around 15,000 deaths. If they hadn't closed the borders at all, it would be at least double that. So I feel like what you're saying is, "Australia should not have closed its borders to citizens. I want to spend time with my dying relative, so I'm quite happy to let 20,000+ Australians die of Covid, (which of course means that none of their loved ones will be with them when they die). I know it's heartbreaking and horrible being one of the people who misses out on such precious time, but sometimes the greater good has to prevail. Mental health has suffered greatly in other countries and suicides have occurred in other countries due to the stress of living with widespread Covid. We can't tell, at this point, whether the impact of quarantine on the mental health of the few has been more damaging than the impact of Covid would have been on the mental health of the many. I have a gut feeling which it will be, though. We also have to consider the likely long-term health consequences for the millions of people who survived Covid. More and more evidence suggests even a mild case can have long-term health consequences including on mental health. Edited March 19, 2021 by Marisawright 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marisawright said: I'm sure it is hard for many people. Unfortunately, they tried letting people self-quarantine at home, and found that a number of selfish, entitled people didn't bother. That's why hotel quarantine became necessary - a minority of idiots spoiling it for the rest of us. I'm really not clear what you think the Australian government should have done. If you look at Canada, they had slightly softer closed borders and self-quarantine and they've had over 20,000 deaths. In proportion to population, Australia would've had around 15,000 deaths. If they hadn't closed the borders at all, it would be at least double that. So I feel like what you're saying is, "Australia should not have closed its borders to citizens. I want to spend time with my dying relative, so I'm quite happy to let 20,000+ Australians die of Covid, (which of course means that none of their loved ones will be with them when they die). I know it's heartbreaking and horrible being one of the people who misses out on such precious time, but sometimes the greater good has to prevail. Mental health has suffered greatly in other countries and suicides have occurred in other countries due to the stress of living with widespread Covid. We can't tell, at this point, whether the impact of quarantine on the mental health of the few has been more damaging than the impact of Covid would have been on the mental health of the many. I have a gut feeling which it will be, though. We also have to consider the likely long-term health consequences for the millions of people who survived Covid. More and more evidence suggests even a mild case can have long-term health consequences including on mental health. The Australian government should not prevent anyone from leaving. The Australian government should not impose caps on arrivals. Both of these measures are breaches of IHR law. I have no issue with quarantine but the federal government has shirked its responsibilities to citizens by not providing sufficient quarantine facilities or options (eg ankle tags) and allowing the rich and famous to come and go freely and not quarantine in hotels with ordinary Australians. They have also ignored medical advice in respect of terminally ill immunocompromised people returning to Australia against quarantining in facilities where Covid is likely to be present. The rules are bent or ignored for the elite. https://theconversation.com/should-aussies-stranded-overseas-go-to-the-united-nations-for-help-to-get-home-154372?utm_medium=ampemail&utm_source=email Edited March 19, 2021 by Loopylu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 11 minutes ago, Loopylu said: The Australian government should not prevent anyone from leaving I am not an apologist for the government. I am not a fan of ScoMo and his cronies. They could certainly be doing better. But the fact is, if you let people leave then they have to return, potentially bringing Covid with them. Hasn't it occurred to you that having left the country for a short visit, you will now occupy a seat on your return flight, and a place in quarantine, that could have been taken up by a stranded Australian? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 11 minutes ago, Marisawright said: I am not an apologist for the government. I am not a fan of ScoMo and his cronies. They could certainly be doing better. But the fact is, if you let people leave then they have to return, potentially bringing Covid with them. Hasn't it occurred to you that having left the country for a short visit, you will now occupy a seat on your return flight, and a place in quarantine, that could have been taken up by a stranded Australian? Two months is not a short visit and I may stay longer depending on my father’s health. Are you implying that I should not be allowed to see my dying father? Unbelievable!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Loopylu said: Two months is not a short visit and I may stay longer depending on my father’s health. Are you implying that I should not be allowed to see my dying father? Unbelievable!!!! I don’t think Mw implied that at all. These are unprecedented times normal has been thrown out the window , there are many people suffering around the world doing it far tougher than yourself. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Loopylu said: The Australian government should not prevent anyone from leaving. The Australian government should not impose caps on arrivals. Both of these measures are breaches of IHR law. I have no issue with quarantine but the federal government has shirked its responsibilities to citizens by not providing sufficient quarantine facilities or options (eg ankle tags) and allowing the rich and famous to come and go freely and not quarantine in hotels with ordinary Australians. They have also ignored medical advice in respect of terminally ill immunocompromised people returning to Australia against quarantining in facilities where Covid is likely to be present. The rules are bent or ignored for the elite. https://theconversation.com/should-aussies-stranded-overseas-go-to-the-united-nations-for-help-to-get-home-154372?utm_medium=ampemail&utm_source=email I would point out that a) there is a huge reduction in the number of airplanes flying so that obviously reduces the number of seats available b) reduced number of passengers allowed on the few aircraft still in the air due to covid spacing regulations thus limiting even further how many people can leave or arrive in Australia. I realise from previous posts that you are extremely unlikely to be swayed from your opinions, but please note that some of us who have perhaps been also affected by the current state of affairs have been more accepting due to the reality of the world wide situation. At the moment there are many things we can’t change, so much sadness and hardship everywhere. Edited March 20, 2021 by ramot 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Loopylu said: Two months is not a short visit and I may stay longer depending on my father’s health. Are you implying that I should not be allowed to see my dying father? Unbelievable!!!! Millions of people have not been able to see their dying fathers, mothers, sons and daughters during this pandemic. If by travelling to see him, you potentially caused hardship to or endangered the health of others, then yes, I think you should have thought twice about it. But that is a matter of personal conscience 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marisawright said: Millions of people have not been able to see their dying fathers, mothers, sons and daughters during this pandemic. If by travelling to see him, you potentially caused hardship to or endangered the health of others, then yes, I think you should have thought twice about it. But that is a matter of personal conscience I will not travel until I have been inoculated for obvious reasons, it’s not worth the risk to me or others at this time, and yes a very close relative has just died in Cyprus. Her children sadly live in other countries and had no opportunity to be with her. We have been lucky here, and because of the travel restrictions and quarantine, our hospitals have mostly been able to still offer much needed medical services, for which we should be thankful. Other countries including the UK, have had very high covid cases and their hospitals have been overwhelmed, with many people unable to access much needed medical help, and face a long wait for even urgent treatment. when anyone makes the decision to emigrate or live in another country, leaving family and friends behind, then it is a sad reality that many of us due to individual circumstances will have been unable to be with loved ones when they are about to die. Covid has made this seem worse, but like many I didn’t see my mother before she died. I doubt I will ever really get over it, but have learnt to accept it. Edited March 20, 2021 by ramot 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, ramot said: I will not travel until I have been inoculated for obvious reasons, it’s not worth the risk to me or others at this time, and yes a very close relative has just died in Cyprus. Her children sadly live in other countries and had no opportunity to be with her. We have been lucky here, and because of the travel restrictions and quarantine, our hospitals have mostly been able to still offer much needed medical services, for which we should be thankful. Other countries including the UK, have had very high covid cases and their hospitals have been overwhelmed, with many people unable to access much needed medical help, and face a long wait for even urgent treatment. when anyone makes the decision to emigrate or live in another country, leaving family and friends behind, then it is a sad reality that many of us due to individual circumstances will have been unable to be with loved ones when they are about to die. Covid has made this seem worse, but like many I didn’t see my mother before she died. I doubt I will ever really get over it, but have learnt to accept it. I am very sorry for both your losses. I empathise having being absent from the UK and unable to attend both of my grandmothers' funerals. I was very close to them. I would like to point out that I have taken every step to avoid infecting anyone. I had a negative Covid test less than 72 hours before leaving Australia. I am currently in mandatory 10 day isolation and have not and will not leave my parents' house until that period is over even though the general population is a far greater risk to me than vice versa. I have already received a negative Covid test from Day 2 of isolation and will have to take another test on Day 8 as a UK government requirement for ALL arrivals. My parents have enquired and their local GP practice will register me temporarily (I still have an NHS number) and I can then access the AZ vaccine. I don't like your implication that I should not be here supporting my mother and father. My father looked very ill when I got here but i can see that my being here has raised his spirits and he seems to have more energy again. Edited March 20, 2021 by Loopylu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Loopylu said: I am very sorry for both your losses. I empathise having being absent from the UK and unable to attend both of my grandmothers' funerals. I was very close to them. I would like to point out that I have taken every step to avoid infecting anyone. I had a negative Covid test less than 72 hours before leaving Australia. I am currently in mandatory 10 day isolation and have not and will not leave my parents' house until that period is over even though the general population is a far greater risk to me than vice versa. I have already received a negative Covid test from Day 2 of isolation and will have to take another test on Day 8 as a UK government requirement for ALL arrivals. My parents have enquired and their local GP practice will register me temporarily (I still have an NHS number) and I can then access the AZ vaccine. I don't like your implication that I should not be here supporting my mother and father. My father looked very ill when I got here but i can see that my being here has raised his spirits and he seems to have more energy again. Every post is open to interpretation. I would like to point out that non UK residents are not entitled to be registered for the NHS, irrespective of still having an NHS number. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 41 minutes ago, ramot said: Every post is open to interpretation. I would like to point out that non UK residents are not entitled to be registered for the NHS, irrespective of still having an NHS number. One of the great things about the NHS (particularly in rural Wales) is they are not sticklers for rules and it is not all about making a quick buck. The welfare and needs of patients (including "foreigners") is paramount. If they say I can register, I will register.... I see GPs in Australia are already rorting the Covid vaccine system, making people pay for a pre-vaccination appointment.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Loopylu said: One of the great things about the NHS (particularly in rural Wales) is they are not sticklers for rules and it is not all about making a quick buck. The welfare and needs of patients (including "foreigners") is paramount. If they say I can register, I will register.... I see GPs in Australia are already rorting the Covid vaccine system, making people pay for a pre-vaccination appointment.... Our GP has already told us she will text or ring to arrange for the Covid jab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Loopylu said: I am very sorry for both your losses. I empathise having being absent from the UK and unable to attend both of my grandmothers' funerals. I was very close to them. I would like to point out that I have taken every step to avoid infecting anyone. I had a negative Covid test less than 72 hours before leaving Australia. I am currently in mandatory 10 day isolation and have not and will not leave my parents' house until that period is over even though the general population is a far greater risk to me than vice versa. I have already received a negative Covid test from Day 2 of isolation and will have to take another test on Day 8 as a UK government requirement for ALL arrivals. My parents have enquired and their local GP practice will register me temporarily (I still have an NHS number) and I can then access the AZ vaccine. I don't like your implication that I should not be here supporting my mother and father. My father looked very ill when I got here but i can see that my being here has raised his spirits and he seems to have more energy again. That's good to hear that your Dad has perked up a little just knowing you are there.. Do you have siblings in the UK? How is your Mum coping? A very stressful time for you all especially as you also have the worry about your husband's health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Loopylu said: I am very sorry for both your losses. I empathise having being absent from the UK and unable to attend both of my grandmothers' funerals. I was very close to them. I would like to point out that I have taken every step to avoid infecting anyone. I had a negative Covid test less than 72 hours before leaving Australia. I am currently in mandatory 10 day isolation and have not and will not leave my parents' house until that period is over even though the general population is a far greater risk to me than vice versa. I have already received a negative Covid test from Day 2 of isolation and will have to take another test on Day 8 as a UK government requirement for ALL arrivals. My parents have enquired and their local GP practice will register me temporarily (I still have an NHS number) and I can then access the AZ vaccine. I don't like your implication that I should not be here supporting my mother and father. My father looked very ill when I got here but i can see that my being here has raised his spirits and he seems to have more energy again. I should have added that your visit must mean a lot to your father and it’s good he has perked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 25 minutes ago, Toots said: That's good to hear that your Dad has perked up a little just knowing you are there.. Do you have siblings in the UK? How is your Mum coping? A very stressful time for you all especially as you also have the worry about your husband's health. Hi Toots - thanks for your concern. I have one sister who lives a mile as the crow flies from my parents. I saw her briefly on the evening I arrived as she came around with one of my step-nieces pretending to be the quarantine police. I was so tired that when I heard the doorbell go and heard all of the kerfuffle I thought it was for real! Mum is doing as well as can be expected. Both of my parents are talking as though Dad won't be here much longer but I keep trying to remind them that in 5% of cases a person with Stage 4 pancreatic cancer can still be around 2 years after diagnosis if the chemo works at holding the cancer at bay. My Dad looked really tired and painfully thin when I arrived but yesterday he was out mowing the lawn for 30 minutes and doesn't seem to have any noticeable ill effects today. I am trying to stop him doing too much and plan to take on the gardening heavy lifting. I think a positive outlook and trying to do things you enjoy can only help. You have to live with the diagnosis and not give in to it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, ramot said: I should have added that your visit must mean a lot to your father and it’s good he has perked up. Thanks Ramot. He certainly seems a lot better since I arrived and, as I just told Toots, his energy levels were up yesterday and he mowed the lawn. I was pretty angry with him for doing that but he has always been a very active person and incapable of sitting still.... As Lockdown is lifting here in Wales we may be able to drive further afield at the end of March and enjoy the beauty of a Welsh spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 On 20/03/2021 at 18:16, ramot said: Every post is open to interpretation. I would like to point out that non UK residents are not entitled to be registered for the NHS, irrespective of still having an NHS number. I just wanted to let people who may have to travel to the UK know that vaccinations are available free from the NHS to any foreigner who finds themselves in the UK. No need to register with a GP. I am on a waiting list and will get a call when a slot at the vaccination drive through becomes available. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Loopylu said: I just wanted to let people who may have to travel to the UK know that vaccinations are available free from the NHS to any foreigner who finds themselves in the UK. No need to register with a GP. I am on a waiting list and will get a call when a slot at the vaccination drive through becomes available. Wales is doing it slightly differently I think, but it makes complete sense to vaccinate everyone in the UK regardless of nationality. The UK has mutual healthcare agreements with Australia, so you have the right to free NHS treatment for 6 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said: Wales is doing it slightly differently I think, but it makes complete sense to vaccinate everyone in the UK regardless of nationality. The UK has mutual healthcare agreements with Australia, so you have the right to free NHS treatment for 6 months. I actually found the NHS England information first when I was researching how to get the vaccine and that was very clear that the Covid vaccine is free to all foreigners in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallyman Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 On 20/03/2021 at 19:59, Loopylu said: I see GPs in Australia are already rorting the Covid vaccine system, making people pay for a pre-vaccination appointment Any evidence to back up this claim ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loopylu Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 39 minutes ago, Rallyman said: Any evidence to back up this claim ? An ABC news article 5 days ago: The COVID vaccine is free, but some Australians have been asked to pay beforehand A free and accessible coronavirus vaccination program has been key to Australia's chart out of the pandemic, but some patients say they have been asked to attend paid appointments before accessing the vaccine. Read the full story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calNgary Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Loopylu said: An ABC news article 5 days ago: The COVID vaccine is free, but some Australians have been asked to pay beforehand A free and accessible coronavirus vaccination program has been key to Australia's chart out of the pandemic, but some patients say they have been asked to attend paid appointments before accessing the vaccine. Read the full story They were asked to pay for a consultation PRIOR to getting the vaccine which is free . However that was quickly squashed ,hence a bit further into the article you linked to it states - Let me be 100 per cent clear — there are no out-of-pocket costs for patients receiving the COVID-19 vaccine," she said. "The suitability assessment, the cost of the vaccine and the vaccine delivery in general practice are fully covered for patients through Medicare." Cal x 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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