Australian and UK Covid Responses

[Rallyman 4,104]

54 minutes ago, s713 said:

Exactly.

It's entirely reasonable to compare how Governments have dealt with this pandemic.

The reason the UK is STILL in such strict lockdown now and facing continued restrictions for at least half of 2021 is that our Government's response to the pandemic in 2020 was uttlerly appalling. Even now they are half-heartedly enacting measures that other countries strictly enforced almost 12 months ago. They are absolutely complicit in both the number of fatalities the UK has seen and the economic legacy that will be left to be dealt with. Let's hope that an independent judiciary follows when the dust settles.

 

 

Are you talking England or all countries, wales , Scotland and N Ireland as all had different approaches? 

[Rallyman 4,104]

On 12/02/2021 at 19:02, Toots said:

Hopefully all those overseas returnees will soon be vaccinated prior to arriving in Australia.  That will help in stopping the virus coming here.  Fingers crossed!

 

Lots of vacations canceled yesterday in sydney as logistics company couldn’t deliver them. 
let’s hope it get sorted ASAP 

[Marisawright 10,921]

11 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

The vaccine programme in the UK is a roaring success.  Kate Bingham did a superb job and Patrick Vallance deserves far more credit for selecting her and setting up the task force than he is being given.

Indeed, it looks very impressive.   I wonder who deserves the most credit.  

I see people getting very defensive when the UK government is criticised for its handling of the pandemic. The thing is, it's the government we're criticising, not the country.   The government is  (by the looks of it) a handful of privileged twits who don't deserve to be there.  By contrast, the ordinary men and women of the NHS have done a heroic job, and now the vaccine programme is being rolled out well, which just shows there are some sterling people in the UK - just a pity they're not in charge of the country.  

I agree that the UK is an island and therefore could have done what Australia did.  As we've seen, being in the EU does not prevent a country closing its borders, and if anything, the UK is more self-sufficient than Australia so it could have been done.   However to be fair, at the time, most experts were saying there was no point trying for elimination.  In fact, Australian state governments still say they're only trying for "suppression" while in practice, everything they do shows their goal is elimination!  

Edited February 25, 2021 by Marisawright

[Graham Fletcher 64]

49 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Indeed, it looks very impressive.   I wonder who deserves the most credit.  

I see people getting very defensive when the UK government is criticised for its handling of the pandemic. The thing is, it's the government we're criticising, not the country.   The government is  (by the looks of it) a handful of privileged twits who don't deserve to be there.  By contrast, the ordinary men and women of the NHS have done a heroic job, and now the vaccine programme is being rolled out well, which just shows there are some sterling people in the UK - just a pity they're not in charge of the country.  

I agree that the UK is an island and therefore could have done what Australia did.  As we've seen, being in the EU does not prevent a country closing its borders, and if anything, the UK is more self-sufficient than Australia so it could have been done.   However to be fair, at the time, most experts were saying there was no point trying for elimination.  In fact, Australian state governments still say they're only trying for "suppression" while in practice, everything they do shows their goal is elimination!  

As soon as the Aussie government realised that the problem here was comparatively minimal they clearly went for elimination, at least the State Premiers did, whilst ScoMo waffled on about suppression. It's understandable, they all look like heroes now when, in reality, they have done significant and unnecessary damage to the economy. But what's new?

[Tulip1 4,906]

Even the Queen is on zoom calls trying to encourage people to get vaccinated.

Queen says Covid vaccine 'didn't hurt at all' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56203768

 

 

[llessur 316]

1 minute ago, Graham Fletcher said:

As soon as the Aussie government realised that the problem here was comparatively minimal they clearly went for elimination, at least the State Premiers did, whilst ScoMo waffled on about suppression. It's understandable, they all look like heroes now when, in reality, they have done significant and unnecessary damage to the economy. But what's new?

And grappling with an ongoing health crisis like most other countries would have had a lesser impact on the economy? Repeated and extended lockdowns? People living in fear of stepping out of their front door? Potentially massive long term mental health issues across the population?

Our economy is open now, has been for months and is tipped to grow strongly if not boom from now on. Ninety-odd percent of the jobs lost to Covid have now been recovered and, Victoria aside, most retail and hospitality businesses have been functioning since the end of the initial lockdown almost a year ago now. In the UK they've all been closed completely for long periods of time.

How can you look at the state that other countries find themselves in now and say that the Australian strategy hasn't been a success with minimal economic impact?

[Marisawright 10,921]

1 hour ago, Graham Fletcher said:

As soon as the Aussie government realised that the problem here was comparatively minimal they clearly went for elimination, at least the State Premiers did, whilst ScoMo waffled on about suppression. It's understandable, they all look like heroes now when, in reality, they have done significant and unnecessary damage to the economy. 

...so which country's example should we have followed?

[MacGyver 1,743]

2 hours ago, llessur said:

And grappling with an ongoing health crisis like most other countries would have had a lesser impact on the economy? Repeated and extended lockdowns? People living in fear of stepping out of their front door? Potentially massive long term mental health issues across the population?

Our economy is open now, has been for months and is tipped to grow strongly if not boom from now on. Ninety-odd percent of the jobs lost to Covid have now been recovered and, Victoria aside, most retail and hospitality businesses have been functioning since the end of the initial lockdown almost a year ago now. In the UK they've all been closed completely for long periods of time.

How can you look at the state that other countries find themselves in now and say that the Australian strategy hasn't been a success with minimal economic impact?

I agree - I struggle to understand how anyone can look at the data (deaths, ecomonic performance etc) and not conclude Australia made the right choices (With a few mistakes along the way). It's almost as if the actions taken to prevent deaths, successfully led to very few deaths, and the lack of deaths is held up as a reason those actions shouldn't have been taken in the first place. Crazy

[Graham Fletcher 64]

2 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I agree - I struggle to understand how anyone can look at the data (deaths, ecomonic performance etc) and not conclude Australia made the right choices (With a few mistakes along the way). It's almost as if the actions taken to prevent deaths, successfully led to very few deaths, and the lack of deaths is held up as a reason those actions shouldn't have been taken in the first place. Crazy

You misunderstand my point - with virtually no deaths in the last 4 months, almost complete elimination with the odd outbreak from arrival hotels - the continuation of panic lockdowns, border closures etc.. have caused the unnecessary damage. There is no reason whatsoever to close down huge chunks of cities every time someone tests positive. The tracking and tracing process quickly eliminates the risks, individuals quarantine and the rest of us get on with our lives.

We have been incredibly lucky but we need to stop being so scared and get back to fixing the economy and getting everyone back to work, not hiding inside when someone 10km away has the sniffles

[Graham Fletcher 64]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

...so which country's example should we have followed?

I am not suggesting following anyone, simply not shutting entire cities down for the odd outbreak that can be contained and dealt with. There is almost zero chance of anyone not at a quarantine hotel getting Covid so why shut down a whole city?

[newjez 10,751]

1 minute ago, Graham Fletcher said:

I am not suggesting following anyone, simply not shutting entire cities down for the odd outbreak that can be contained and dealt with. There is almost zero chance of anyone not at a quarantine hotel getting Covid so why shut down a whole city?

I really think you are underestimating the rate at which these new variants spread. Doing vaccination in a clean country will be three times as fast as doing them in a dirty country. You are so close. Don't drop the ball.

[Graham Fletcher 64]

2 hours ago, llessur said:

And grappling with an ongoing health crisis like most other countries would have had a lesser impact on the economy? Repeated and extended lockdowns? People living in fear of stepping out of their front door? Potentially massive long term mental health issues across the population?

Our economy is open now, has been for months and is tipped to grow strongly if not boom from now on. Ninety-odd percent of the jobs lost to Covid have now been recovered and, Victoria aside, most retail and hospitality businesses have been functioning since the end of the initial lockdown almost a year ago now. In the UK they've all been closed completely for long periods of time.

How can you look at the state that other countries find themselves in now and say that the Australian strategy hasn't been a success with minimal economic impact?

Initial strategy, yes, current strategy, ridiculous. Look at WA - one case and the Premier closes down the lives of 2 million people in the city and all of those traveling to and from. Massive overreaction with no justification. The months of open economy are the very reason panicking Premiers need to sit down and shut up

[Drumbeat 739]

1 hour ago, Graham Fletcher said:

Initial strategy, yes, current strategy, ridiculous. Look at WA - one case and the Premier closes down the lives of 2 million people in the city and all of those traveling to and from. Massive overreaction with no justification. The months of open economy are the very reason panicking Premiers need to sit down and shut up

Lockdown was only for 5 days and the majority of people here in WA supported it (even me who had to cancel an interstate trip again).

[llessur 316]

1 hour ago, Graham Fletcher said:

Initial strategy, yes, current strategy, ridiculous. Look at WA - one case and the Premier closes down the lives of 2 million people in the city and all of those traveling to and from. Massive overreaction with no justification. The months of open economy are the very reason panicking Premiers need to sit down and shut up

In many cases you're probably right in that a leak from hotel quarantine could be relatively easily mopped up by contact tracing teams without closing the economy. However, my understanding is that the snap lockdowns are to prevent a rare but worst-case scenario which would overwhelm or outrun contact tracing teams and cause case numbers to run away and result in a widespread, long-term lockdown.

At the moment we seem to have been lucky - in most cases the COVID-positive workers have not moved too widely through the community and spread the disease to a large number of people outside of their close contacts. However, it's not at all unfeasible to consider a situation where a worker infected with a highly transmissible COVID strain and shedding lots of virus travels repeatedly on crowded public transport services, attends a couple of 50+ extended family gatherings and a busy religious service and then goes on a shopping spree before they test positive and are ordered to quarantine. You could even throw in further complications such as many of the people impacted not speaking English as their first language leading to a shortage of suitable interpreters. This could easily cause a situation where contact tracing teams are scrambling to trace and contact a few hundred close contacts and a few thousand contacts of contacts. It would only take a small number of those contacts to be shedding large amounts of the virus whilst attending other multiple large gatherings before contact tracers would have no chance of preventing widespread community transmission. From what I have heard the capacity of contact tracing teams to outrun the virus tapers off rapidly once close contact numbers reach triple figures.

The multiple family gathering super-spreading scenario was one of the causes of the Victorian second wave so I would say that the cost of exercising extreme caution through short circuit breaker lockdowns is an acceptable insurance policy against the very real threat of having to close down large chunks of the country for extended periods of time.

I'm sure there is also a political benefit to taking the risk adverse approach - after all public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of the strategy that has been adopted. The results of the WA election in a couple of weeks will most likely reflect just how much this is the case.

[MacGyver 1,743]

2 hours ago, Graham Fletcher said:

You misunderstand my point - with virtually no deaths in the last 4 months, almost complete elimination with the odd outbreak from arrival hotels - the continuation of panic lockdowns, border closures etc.. have caused the unnecessary damage. There is no reason whatsoever to close down huge chunks of cities every time someone tests positive. The tracking and tracing process quickly eliminates the risks, individuals quarantine and the rest of us get on with our lives.

We have been incredibly lucky but we need to stop being so scared and get back to fixing the economy and getting everyone back to work, not hiding inside when someone 10km away has the sniffles

My apologies Graham I thought you were arguing a different point. The debate you raise is valid, I suspect we sit on opposite sides of the fence when considering the value of short lockdowns at the moment, but both arguments/sides have merit (as NSW vs WA handling has shown - both successful with different approaches).

[Marisawright 10,921]

2 hours ago, Graham Fletcher said:

I am not suggesting following anyone, simply not shutting entire cities down for the odd outbreak that can be contained and dealt with. There is almost zero chance of anyone not at a quarantine hotel getting Covid so why shut down a whole city?

I think you have too much confidence in the tracking and tracing system.  

I agree that the recent border shutdowns were unnecessary, but I think shutting down the city for a few days makes a lot of sense, it's designed to give the contact tracers time and if that's what they say they need for these new, fast-moving variants, I think we should trust them.  

Edited February 26, 2021 by Marisawright

[welljock 332]

52 minutes ago, llessur said:

 

I'm sure there is also a political benefit to taking the risk adverse approach - after all public opinion is overwhelmingly in favour of the strategy that has been adopted. The results of the WA election in a couple of weeks will most likely reflect just how much this is the case.

You don't even need to wait two weeks - the opposition has already conceded that they've lost and it's damage limitation

[simmo 21,941]

It must be said, the UK vaccination program has been world class.

 

[s713 2,065]

Absolutely baffling that people are criticising the actions of the Govenment(s) in Australia.

The UK has had 125,000 deaths. The US has had HALF A MILLION. Both through severe mismanagement and incompetence.

Australia has had 900. Think yourselves lucky. And for God's sake don't ever elect vanity projects as leaders.

[newjez 10,751]

4 hours ago, simmo said:

It must be said, the UK vaccination program has been world class.

 

Focus on the glitter simmo. Stay focused on the glitter.

[simmo 21,941]

20 hours ago, newjez said:

Focus on the glitter simmo. Stay focused on the glitter.

Glitter.

I know it pains a lot of people but credit where it's due.

[newjez 10,751]

18 hours ago, simmo said:

Glitter.

I know it pains a lot of people but credit where it's due.

It is glitter simmo.

Sadly you can't vaccinate dead people. The mistakes the UK government has made are not fixed by doing one thing right.

[newjez 10,751]

On 27/02/2021 at 07:42, simmo said:

Glitter.

I know it pains a lot of people but credit where it's due.

The UK will have a Tory government for the next ten years, possibly even the next twenty. Labour can't be taken seriously after the Blair and Corbyn years, and the lib Dems are fine at a council level, but I really do think they should retire from national politics.

Saying that, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the best Tory party that we can have. And I don't think you will get that by ignoring their mistakes.

Sure, they got vaccines right. Or rather, Boris got lucky in picking a star like Kate Bingham. Her approach to go completely overboard on the vaccine purchase was brilliant, and probably not in line with normal conservative practice. The NHS have distributed it well.

But it's not healthy to ignore the disasters, and there have been many.

The Tory party has a weak leader and a cabinet selected on loyalty rather than competence. Which is a shame as they are a strong party with a lot of depth. This needs to be addressed. The labour party aren't the worry. But we do need to keep up with the rest of the world, and even show leadership. On things in addition to vaccines.

There have been some fantastic Tory statesman over the years. There are probably many potential in the party now. But Boris and the cabinet need to go.

Piers Morgan has the right idea. If the Tories don't accept their mistakes and improve on them, then they won't get better. And we deserve the best government we can have. 

Tory supporters need to be looking inward to improve. It's pointless looking outward, as the only thing that can bring down the Tory party is the Tory party.

 

[s713 2,065]

Credit where it's due in 2021.

Criticism and condemnation where it's due for 2020. Which has put us in this position in 2021.

[s713 2,065]

Yeah, I guess its hilarious.