Australian and UK Covid Responses

[Tulip1 4,668]

6 hours ago, Marisawright said:

If a pregnant woman gets Covid, she has a high risk of premature birth

Define high.  What percentage of pregnant women who get covid have premature births.  

[Tulip1 4,668]

6 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Reading this one and the other one that was posted, you'd have to think that is a fake account and not the real Matt Hancock.  He can't even spell.

He has openly talked about his struggles with dyslexia.  Whether it’s a fake account or not I don’t know but the spelling errors are possible given his condition. 

[Lavers 1,342]

2 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

He has openly talked about his struggles with dyslexia.  Whether it’s a fake account or not I don’t know but the spelling errors are possible given his condition. 

We all know how easy it is to mis-spell in txts.

These txts are everywhere at the minute and I can’t see papers running with this if they weren’t 100% it was legit.

The papers would be sued for big cash otherwise.

[rtritudr 292]

20 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

Define high.  What percentage of pregnant women who get covid have premature births.  

According to the following meta-study from the British Medical Journal, the relative risk (RR) of being born pre-term is 1.71.  That means 71% more babies were born prematurely to an infected mother versus control.

https://gh.bmj.com/content/8/1/e009495

Neonates born to women with SARS-CoV-2 infection were more likely to be admitted to a neonatal care unit after birth (7 studies; n=7637; RR 1.86, 95% CI 1.12 to 3.08); be born preterm (7 studies; n=6233; RR 1.71, 95% CI 1.28 to 2.29) or moderately preterm (7 studies; n=6071; RR 2.92, 95% CI 1.88 to 4.54); and to be born low birth weight (12 studies; n=11 930; RR 1.19, 95% CI 1.02 to 1.40). Infection was not linked to stillbirth. Studies were generally at low or moderate risk of bias.

[FirstWorldProblems 1,677]

On 05/03/2023 at 06:16, Lavers said:

So the messages are legit, Hancock had handed over all messages under a non disclosure to write a book.

Whoever he gave the messages to went straight to the telegraph.

 

I can't believe I am about to defend Matt Hancock......I mean.....he was crap!  He was out of his depth, he didn't follow his own rules and the way PPE was awarded smells a little like borderline corruption.

But......

• this was a totally unprecedented situation - one without a rule book and so if it looks like they were making it up as they went along, it's because they were and if they were changing their minds when new info came in, well that's to be expected.    I'm sure someone more competent could have done it better, but no one would have been infallible in that situation
• leaders do need to discuss options.  To strategise on the implications of what decision over another.  To consider what the latest piece of intel/evidence is suggesting.  To brainstorm options and scenarios that now, three years later seem nuts (apparently they were considering a mass cull of cats!).   However to do so over WhatsApp is pretty uncomfortable.   Isn't government supposed to be transparent?  It's ironic of course that the encryption wasn't defeated, but that the muppet gave them away to a journalist who had form for betraying her source.   As chaotic as their conversations seem to be - I'm pleased they were at least having them and debating them rather than one or two people jumping to a judgement and taking action without thought.....in China disagreement meant disloyalty and those people were exiled and punished.
• The way the Telegraph is dripping these messages out is to maximise their readership.  If it was all about public interest then the whole lot would get dropped at once.  They are a business.  It's in their interests to keep the readers on the hook with cliff hangers and by painting the very most chaotic view of things and selecting the bits that most appeal to their audience and ignoring the bits that don't

All I'm saying is that we should reserve a little bit of judgement until the whole lot are released and we can see the context of everything.  I suspect it will show a chaotic approach to crisis management with plenty of questionable decisions and lots of hand-wringing about how on earth to change course on things without admitting to getting something wrong.   I for one would like to think I could have done a better job than these clowns, but I'm unlikely ever to be tested on that to find out.

[simmo 21,581]

There Was Never a Scientific Consensus On Lockdowns, Masks, or the Vaccine.  Why didn't we hear the voices of the other side of the argument?

 

 

[Rallyman 3,945]

5 hours ago, simmo said:

There Was Never a Scientific Consensus On Lockdowns, Masks, or the Vaccine.  Why didn't we hear the voices of the other side of the argument?

 

 

They were silenced on social media networks, you had unqualified people making decisions to take down opinions from medically qualified people who had different views to the narrative. 
 

[Marisawright 10,232]

9 hours ago, Rallyman said:

They were silenced on social media networks, you had unqualified people making decisions to take down opinions from medically qualified people who had different views to the narrative. 
 

There were a lot of "medically qualified" people who weren't qualified to speak about Covid, making a lot of noise.   If you had a heart problem, whose advice would you take, a cardiologist's or a kidney specialist?    The people qualified to talk about Covid were epidemiologists.  Anyone else shouldn't have been given air time, quite rightly.

[simmo 21,581]

On 06/03/2023 at 17:24, FirstWorldProblems said:

I can't believe I am about to defend Matt Hancock......I mean.....he was crap!  He was out of his depth, he didn't follow his own rules and the way PPE was awarded smells a little like borderline corruption.

But......

• this was a totally unprecedented situation - one without a rule book and so if it looks like they were making it up as they went along, it's because they were and if they were changing their minds when new info came in, well that's to be expected.    I'm sure someone more competent could have done it better, but no one would have been infallible in that situation
• leaders do need to discuss options.  To strategise on the implications of what decision over another.  To consider what the latest piece of intel/evidence is suggesting.  To brainstorm options and scenarios that now, three years later seem nuts (apparently they were considering a mass cull of cats!).   However to do so over WhatsApp is pretty uncomfortable.   Isn't government supposed to be transparent?  It's ironic of course that the encryption wasn't defeated, but that the muppet gave them away to a journalist who had form for betraying her source.   As chaotic as their conversations seem to be - I'm pleased they were at least having them and debating them rather than one or two people jumping to a judgement and taking action without thought.....in China disagreement meant disloyalty and those people were exiled and punished.
• The way the Telegraph is dripping these messages out is to maximise their readership.  If it was all about public interest then the whole lot would get dropped at once.  They are a business.  It's in their interests to keep the readers on the hook with cliff hangers and by painting the very most chaotic view of things and selecting the bits that most appeal to their audience and ignoring the bits that don't

All I'm saying is that we should reserve a little bit of judgement until the whole lot are released and we can see the context of everything.  I suspect it will show a chaotic approach to crisis management with plenty of questionable decisions and lots of hand-wringing about how on earth to change course on things without admitting to getting something wrong.   I for one would like to think I could have done a better job than these clowns, but I'm unlikely ever to be tested on that to find out.

Unless if course you are Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist.

[Ken 1,567]

12 hours ago, Marisawright said:

There were a lot of "medically qualified" people who weren't qualified to speak about Covid, making a lot of noise.   If you had a heart problem, whose advice would you take, a cardiologist's or a kidney specialist?    The people qualified to talk about Covid were epidemiologists.  Anyone else shouldn't have been given air time, quite rightly.

Unfortunately, part of the problem was that if you had a heart problem you couldn't see a cardiologist without the permission of an epidemiologist who had absolutely no idea how serious the heart problem was. And that is why Australia now has excess deaths. 

[FirstWorldProblems 1,677]

32 minutes ago, Ken said:

Unfortunately, part of the problem was that if you had a heart problem you couldn't see a cardiologist without the permission of an epidemiologist who had absolutely no idea how serious the heart problem was. And that is why Australia now has excess deaths. 

I don’t know who is telling you this but they are talking absolute rubbish. The restrictions were all about stopping the healthcare providers from being overwhelmed.  Without the restrictions there would have been no cardiologist appointments because the hospitals would have been full of people with Covid and excess deaths would be much higher. 

[Lavers 1,342]

13 hours ago, Marisawright said:

There were a lot of "medically qualified" people who weren't qualified to speak about Covid, making a lot of noise.   If you had a heart problem, whose advice would you take, a cardiologist's or a kidney specialist?    The people qualified to talk about Covid were epidemiologists.  Anyone else shouldn't have been given air time, quite rightly.

And which man has been given the most airtime throughout Covid??????

Mr Bill Gates 

[Skani 5,331]

40 minutes ago, Lavers said:

And which man has been given the most airtime throughout Covid??????

Mr Bill Gates 

We sure must get our news from different sources.  I don't remember any pronouncements of Bill Gates.  I'm not denying he made them but he wouldn't figure in any list of Covid talking heads I can remember.

[Marisawright 10,232]

45 minutes ago, Lavers said:

And which man has been given the most airtime throughout Covid??????

Mr Bill Gates 

I'm with Skani.  I think I've seen Gates on the news once or twice in the last three or four years.  I have no idea what he's up to or what he thinks about Covid.  Have you actually seen him a lot, or have you just read articles from people complaining that they've seen him a lot? 

Edited March 8 by Marisawright

[Marisawright 10,232]

1 hour ago, Ken said:

Unfortunately, part of the problem was that if you had a heart problem you couldn't see a cardiologist without the permission of an epidemiologist who had absolutely no idea how serious the heart problem was. And that is why Australia now has excess deaths. 

This is a strange statement.  No one had to apply to an epidemiologist to see a specialist.  My husband had a recurrence of his melanoma during covid and didn't have to jump through any special hoops to have it treated.  Where in Australia did that rule apply?

It's certainly true that many people decided to delay having procedures or seeing their doctor because they didn't fancy going near clinics or hospitals during Covid.  

Edited March 8 by Marisawright

[Toots 11,706]

8 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

This is a strange statement.  No one had to apply to an epidemiologist to see a specialist.  My husband had a recurrence of his melanoma during covid and didn't have to jump through any special hoops to have it treated.  Where in Australia did that rule apply?

It's certainly true that many people decided to delay having procedures or seeing their doctor because they didn't fancy going near clinics or hospitals during Covid.  

I had two appointments with my cardiologist during Covid and I don't remember anything about having to apply to an epidemiologist.  Cancer treatments here carrried on through Covid too.

[simmo 21,581]

 

7 minutes ago, Toots said:

I had two appointments with my cardiologist during Covid and I don't remember anything about having to apply to an epidemiologist.  Cancer treatments here carrried on through Covid too.

I think the point being made is that someone having chest pain was discouraged from visiting a GP because an epidemiologist had advised the government t o impose strick lockdowns.

[ramot 6,870]

13 minutes ago, Toots said:

I had two appointments with my cardiologist during Covid and I don't remember anything about having to apply to an epidemiologist.  Cancer treatments here carrried on through Covid too.

I had no problem either

[Lavers 1,342]

43 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

I'm with Skani.  I think I've seen Gates on the news once or twice in the last three or four years.  I have no idea what he's up to or what he thinks about Covid.  Have you actually seen him a lot, or have you just read articles from people complaining that they've seen him a lot? 

You have honestly only seen Gates once or twice?

He is interviewed everywhere regarding Covid.

[Lavers 1,342]

46 minutes ago, Skani said:

We sure must get our news from different sources.  I don't remember any pronouncements of Bill Gates.  I'm not denying he made them but he wouldn't figure in any list of Covid talking heads I can remember.

Gates had been everywhere during Covid. Maybe you only watch ABC/BBC

[simmo 21,581]

41 minutes ago, Lavers said:

Gates had been everywhere during Covid. Maybe you only watch ABC/BBC

I think that maybe the problem.  The majority of people only use a small pool of news media.  Possibly due to alternitive media being constantly attacked by so called fact checkers.  

[ramot 6,870]

1 hour ago, simmo said:

 

I think the point being made is that someone having chest pain was discouraged from visiting a GP because an epidemiologist had advised the government t o impose strick lockdowns.

Perhaps in UK? We were never blocked from seeing a Dr at our surgery, we masked up, used  hand sanitiser, and as the weather is usually pretty good here, we could  sit distanced either inside or outside, and then called in when the Dr was free. On one occasion I had to stay in the car, and my Dr came out to me. The Drs were all in full protection cover,  I can’t fault the care that was still available. Our surgery still has spaced seating, and the receptionists are  behind clear screens. 

 

Edited March 8 by ramot

[Toots 11,706]

12 minutes ago, ramot said:

Perhaps in UK? We were never blocked from seeing a Dr at our surgery, we masked up, used  hand sanitiser, and as the weather is usually pretty good here, we could  sit distanced either inside or outside, and then called in when the Dr was free. On one occasion I had to stay in the car, and my Dr came out to me. The Drs were all in full protection cover,  I can’t fault the care that was still available. Our surgery still has spaced seating, and the receptionists are  behind clear screens. 

 

It was much the same here.  Seems so long ago now.  I recall that a maximum number of patients at the GP was half a dozen in the waiting room and the chairs were spaced much wider apart.  Masks and hand sanitiser.  Yes, I remember we had our flu shot in mid 2020 sitting in the car and the Dr administering the flu vaccine through the open car window.  Apart from not being able to see our sons for ages due to border closures I didn't find life that restricted at all.  I think we were in a bit of a bubble in Tasmania.  The first few months of 2020 were a bit tougher due to strict lockdown but when the border closed  to everybody except for essential workers we seemed to have quite a bit of freedom within Tassie.  Some folk didn't cope very well but they were in the minority.  

[simmo 21,581]

24 minutes ago, ramot said:

Perhaps in UK? We were never blocked from seeing a Dr at our surgery, we masked up, used  hand sanitiser, and as the weather is usually pretty good here, we could  sit distanced either inside or outside, and then called in when the Dr was free. On one occasion I had to stay in the car, and my Dr came out to me. The Drs were all in full protection cover,  I can’t fault the care that was still available. Our surgery still has spaced seating, and the receptionists are  behind clear screens. 

 

Thats all great but many people skipped check ups because of the message was to stay home.

https://ahpa.com.au/advocacy/australians-are-delaying-healthcare-appointments-and-tests-during-covid-19/

[s713 2,019]

9 hours ago, Skani said:

We sure must get our news from different sources.  I don't remember any pronouncements of Bill Gates.  I'm not denying he made them but he wouldn't figure in any list of Covid talking heads I can remember.

It's a perfect example of seeing what you want to see out of social media/News and getting drawn in. Like you, I only saw Gates a couple of times, Lavers sees him wherever he turns.

You can apply this logic to the other thread on conspiracies too.