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Australian and UK Covid Responses

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3 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

But why find that illogical?   Until now, me and my children have had every vax known to man.   But we all reject this MRNA jab as it is not a vaccine at all, but is a genetic altering drug.  What I find illogical and incredible is that people have swallowed the government line and havent done any homework on what is being put onto their bodies. 

I have been following this thread since it started, and I have been investigating this whole situation since then, and I have come to the conclusion that covid is all about governments wanting to control us all.... and that this is leading towards what is becoming a New World Order. 

Yes laugh at my comments, as so many of you will, but please, if  you have any intelligence at all, do some research and you will find that I am not the bat shit crazy old chook that you all think I am.

 

I totally expect to be blanked from PIO now as I have expressed views that seem not to be allowed on this forum as it goes against the government speak.  Been nice knowing you guys over the years...... and I will be yet again another member of the Freedom Rally in Perth next week.... Freedom of choice to what we put in our bodies.... 

If you share your sources of information it might help either:

a) educate us on what you say we’re missing/you’ve discovered that we need to know; or

b) Give the opportunity to respectfully debate and/or refute the information.

The science community has put its research on the table to be considered, the opposing argument would be helpful in order to have an informed discussion.

I think your last paragraph is a bit dramatic - I’ve read many people critique various vaccines for various reasons and the posts haven’t been removed nor the posters banned.

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3 hours ago, Quoll said:

I'm with you - went to our Canberra march on Saturday too - it was bigger than I expected for Canberra which is "toe the line central". I wont be having anything mRNA either and it seems that that is all that is on offer at the moment.  I think the cognitive dissonance is too strong for people to actually research alternatives unfortunately.

AstraZeneca is not mRNA and is available for those that discuss it with their gp. All my family and friends in Scotland received AstraZeneca and Australia has it in spades. A work colleague elected to have this option for reasons that I did not ask as it is a private matter for her. Novavax is also on the way and isn’t an mRNA vaccine. 

I respect your right to choose, but I also expect pro vaxxers right to choose to be respected. I’m not suggesting you personally don’t show that respect, but there have been some protesters using violence, threats and intimidation to try and prevent people choosing to be vaccinated. Respect must work both ways. 

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I'd like to address your two points if I may.

5 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

But we all reject this MRNA jab as it is not a vaccine at all, but is a genetic altering drug. 

Gene Altering Therapy (commonly referred to as Gene Therapy) involves making deliberate changes to a person DNA as a form of treatment or cure.  Typically this takes the form of introducing a normal gene into someones genome to repair a mutation that causes a genetic disease.  Gene therapies permanently change the cell's DNA with those changes being inherited by any daughter cells if that cell divides

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is not the same as DNA and the two cannot combine.  mRNA vaccines cannot enter a cells nucleus (which is where your DNA genome resides). 

Ergo there is zero risk of mRNA vaccines altering a persons genetic makeup.  As an aside they are also very fragile and degrade within a few days, they do not persist - that are not permanent.  Once an mRNA is used the body breaks it down.

Does that make sense?  Does that help at all?

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the mRNA vaccines use genetic code from SARV-CoV-2 to elicit an immune response in people.   Some folks may have read "uses genetic code" and conflated that with "gene therapy", concluded that these vaccines change our genes.   They two things are distinctly different and no mRNA vaccine is a "genetic altering drug".  As I hopefully made clear above, such a thing is impossible.

 

5 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

it is not a vaccine at all

Definition of vaccine

1: a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease

As mentioned above, the mRNA vaccines are indeed vaccines.  They use genetic code from SARV-CoV-2 to elicit an immune response.  You will have heard on the news a lot recently about the 'spike protein' thanks to the 30 mutations that Omicron has in the spike protein.  mRNA vaccines present this 'spike protein' to the body so that the body can develop antibodies against the protein, so that if the person contracts Covid proper in the future, then the immune system can react much more quickly to it.

 

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British  | Lived in Australia 2001-02 on 457   | Married Aussie wife & moved back to UK | Plan to return to Sydney 2026 when all kids have finished school

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6 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

But why find that illogical?  

--

I have come to the conclusion that covid is all about governments wanting to control us all.... and that this is leading towards what is becoming a New World Order. 

--

Yes laugh at my comments, as so many of you will, but please, if  you have any intelligence at all, do some research and you will find that I am not the bat shit crazy old chook that you all think I am.

--

I totally expect to be blanked from PIO now as I have expressed views that seem not to be allowed on this forum as it goes against the government speak.  

--

Straight out of the playbook we were only discussing on Monday, and no sources for anything  ! Very sinister.

 

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6 hours ago, Quoll said:

I'm with you - went to our Canberra march on Saturday too - it was bigger than I expected for Canberra which is "toe the line central". I wont be having anything mRNA either and it seems that that is all that is on offer at the moment.  I think the cognitive dissonance is too strong for people to actually research alternatives unfortunately.

and another !

 

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On 29/11/2021 at 09:43, Marisawright said:

Of course people will have differing view on many topics and those may well be "well thought out and logical".   But these days, a weird thing is happening.  I can have a debate with an anti-vaxxer and they have clearly thought through their opinions.  They sound as though they've done their research and have a sound basis for their arguments.  But go away and look for the source of all their seemingly cogent arguments and you find it's not as solid as it sounded. For instance, for years anti-vaxxers relied on research which suggested vaccines caused autism.  Those findings were very quickly debunked within the scientific community but the research was still being quoted very confidently as fact, years later, on lots of websites. And it's still there.

This is the big problem now. You try to do your research and find the same "facts" repeated over and over again on many sites.  It's easy to think it wouldn't be so widespread if it wasn't right, but that's not the case at all.

Quite !

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6 hours ago, MacGyver said:

AstraZeneca is not mRNA and is available for those that discuss it with their gp. All my family and friends in Scotland received AstraZeneca and Australia has it in spades. A work colleague elected to have this option for reasons that I did not ask as it is a private matter for her. Novavax is also on the way and isn’t an mRNA vaccine. 

I respect your right to choose, but I also expect pro vaxxers right to choose to be respected. I’m not suggesting you personally don’t show that respect, but there have been some protesters using violence, threats and intimidation to try and prevent people choosing to be vaccinated. Respect must work both ways. 

I am aware of that and, being overweight and over age and with family I may need to fly to at the drop of a hat, I did opt for the adenovirus vector option. It felt much like coercion at the time however.  Novovax has been stymied from all accounts despite a significant Go Fund Me pot - it would certainly be my choice if it became available. It appears, however that boosters, when required, are not adenovirus vector options but mRNA. Certainly there appears to be less risk from mRNA injury amongst my age group, with the bulk of reported deaths and injuries being among the younger fitter group but I still won’t take it, though I believe there may be evidence that injuries may potentially  be reduced by adjusting the injection procedure with a pull back to ensure that it’s intramuscular not accidentally intravenous. 

May I respectfully suggest that you may never have been amongst a group of pro-vaxxers if you dare to suggest your reluctance to be injected by an experiential inoculant! People you may once have thought of as friends can really pile on you with “facts” that they should know are false. Respect certainly does work both ways! It certainly seems that there is almost a cult like adoration of the vaccines amongst those who have gone into them all gung ho - amongst one group of my friends in particular, they did not seem to care that one of us died within weeks of their vaccine (52 with a blood clot) - oh no! Could not possibly have been the vaccine! (And post mortems have failed to investigate that very fact because blood clots happen to everyone all the time) Another, the day after her booster shot, could not get out of bed because of extreme vertigo (I hope that’s all it was - she passed out with vertigo after her first shot - will see if she’s still around on Friday).  Most people who think like me aren’t out threatening those with a different opinion, we tend to stay schtum to stay safe! 

I think another issue is that there is a general conflation of the pejorative anti-vaxxer label.  I am most certainly not anti vaccine at all, especially against childhood illnesses which is where a good deal of the crackpottery has originated and I have had the flu vaccine and raced to the GP on turning 70 to get my shingles vaccine. There is a big difference between objecting to vaccines which have been tested with good safety records and experimental inoculants whose safety records are somewhat dubious to say the least, especially with the degree of coercion being exerted to accept those experimental inoculants.  
 

It is, indeed, an emotive issue and I daresay most people can’t be bothered to scratch beneath the surface but the more I check out the more I worry. 

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4 hours ago, Robert Dyson said:

and another !

 

Start with VAERS and go from there perhaps

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Due to a number of reports about these last few pages ,can i remind you all this thread is about the Covid responses and what is happening where you are (UK and Aus).

Thanks

 Cal x


If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place...

If you get a chance,take it, If it changes your life,let it. Nobody said it would be easy they just said it would be worth it...

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5 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I'd like to address your two points if I may.

Gene Altering Therapy (commonly referred to as Gene Therapy) involves making deliberate changes to a person DNA as a form of treatment or cure.  Typically this takes the form of introducing a normal gene into someones genome to repair a mutation that causes a genetic disease.  Gene therapies permanently change the cell's DNA with those changes being inherited by any daughter cells if that cell divides

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is not the same as DNA and the two cannot combine.  mRNA vaccines cannot enter a cells nucleus (which is where your DNA genome resides). 

Ergo there is zero risk of mRNA vaccines altering a persons genetic makeup.  As an aside they are also very fragile and degrade within a few days, they do not persist - that are not permanent.  Once an mRNA is used the body breaks it down.

Does that make sense?  Does that help at all?

I think the confusion comes from the fact that the mRNA vaccines use genetic code from SARV-CoV-2 to elicit an immune response in people.   Some folks may have read "uses genetic code" and conflated that with "gene therapy", concluded that these vaccines change our genes.   They two things are distinctly different and no mRNA vaccine is a "genetic altering drug".  As I hopefully made clear above, such a thing is impossible.

 

Definition of vaccine

1: a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease

As mentioned above, the mRNA vaccines are indeed vaccines.  They use genetic code from SARV-CoV-2 to elicit an immune response.  You will have heard on the news a lot recently about the 'spike protein' thanks to the 30 mutations that Omicron has in the spike protein.  mRNA vaccines present this 'spike protein' to the body so that the body can develop antibodies against the protein, so that if the person contracts Covid proper in the future, then the immune system can react much more quickly to it.

 

I thought this was common knowledge. This is frustrating. To say the least. Why do people buy into this?

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1 hour ago, Quoll said:

I am aware of that and, being overweight and over age and with family I may need to fly to at the drop of a hat, I did opt for the adenovirus vector option. It felt much like coercion at the time however.  Novovax has been stymied from all accounts despite a significant Go Fund Me pot - it would certainly be my choice if it became available. It appears, however that boosters, when required, are not adenovirus vector options but mRNA. Certainly there appears to be less risk from mRNA injury amongst my age group, with the bulk of reported deaths and injuries being among the younger fitter group but I still won’t take it, though I believe there may be evidence that injuries may potentially  be reduced by adjusting the injection procedure with a pull back to ensure that it’s intramuscular not accidentally intravenous. 

May I respectfully suggest that you may never have been amongst a group of pro-vaxxers if you dare to suggest your reluctance to be injected by an experiential inoculant! People you may once have thought of as friends can really pile on you with “facts” that they should know are false. Respect certainly does work both ways! It certainly seems that there is almost a cult like adoration of the vaccines amongst those who have gone into them all gung ho - amongst one group of my friends in particular, they did not seem to care that one of us died within weeks of their vaccine (52 with a blood clot) - oh no! Could not possibly have been the vaccine! (And post mortems have failed to investigate that very fact because blood clots happen to everyone all the time) Another, the day after her booster shot, could not get out of bed because of extreme vertigo (I hope that’s all it was - she passed out with vertigo after her first shot - will see if she’s still around on Friday).  Most people who think like me aren’t out threatening those with a different opinion, we tend to stay schtum to stay safe! 

I think another issue is that there is a general conflation of the pejorative anti-vaxxer label.  I am most certainly not anti vaccine at all, especially against childhood illnesses which is where a good deal of the crackpottery has originated and I have had the flu vaccine and raced to the GP on turning 70 to get my shingles vaccine. There is a big difference between objecting to vaccines which have been tested with good safety records and experimental inoculants whose safety records are somewhat dubious to say the least, especially with the degree of coercion being exerted to accept those experimental inoculants.  
 

It is, indeed, an emotive issue and I daresay most people can’t be bothered to scratch beneath the surface but the more I check out the more I worry. 

Accidentally intravenous? You lost me there Quoll. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information but suggest some critical analysis. 

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12 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

But why find that illogical?   Until now, me and my children have had every vax known to man.   But we all reject this MRNA jab as it is not a vaccine at all, but is a genetic altering drug.  What I find illogical and incredible is that people have swallowed the government line and havent done any homework on what is being put onto their bodies. 

I have been following this thread since it started, and I have been investigating this whole situation since then, and I have come to the conclusion that covid is all about governments wanting to control us all.... and that this is leading towards what is becoming a New World Order. 

Yes laugh at my comments, as so many of you will, but please, if  you have any intelligence at all, do some research and you will find that I am not the bat shit crazy old chook that you all think I am.

 

I totally expect to be blanked from PIO now as I have expressed views that seem not to be allowed on this forum as it goes against the government speak.  Been nice knowing you guys over the years...... and I will be yet again another member of the Freedom Rally in Perth next week.... Freedom of choice to what we put in our bodies.... 

What does the ‘New World Order’ look like and why are ‘they’ trying to engineer one? Can you explain further? Also who are ‘they’ Who’s in charge of this? How do governments want to control is by mass vaccination and what will that achieve for them? I’m truly interested to hear your thoughts. 

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14 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

But why find that illogical?   Until now, me and my children have had every vax known to man.   But we all reject this MRNA jab as it is not a vaccine at all, but is a genetic altering drug.  What I find illogical and incredible is that people have swallowed the government line and havent done any homework on what is being put onto their bodies. 

I have been following this thread since it started, and I have been investigating this whole situation since then, and I have come to the conclusion that covid is all about governments wanting to control us all.... and that this is leading towards what is becoming a New World Order. 

Yes laugh at my comments, as so many of you will, but please, if  you have any intelligence at all, do some research and you will find that I am not the bat shit crazy old chook that you all think I am.

 

I totally expect to be blanked from PIO now as I have expressed views that seem not to be allowed on this forum as it goes against the government speak.  Been nice knowing you guys over the years...... and I will be yet again another member of the Freedom Rally in Perth next week.... Freedom of choice to what we put in our bodies.... 

Don't think you'll be banned from PIO, you are allowed your choice. 

It's a shame the way it's gone, setting friends against each other. We avoid talking about it.

One things for certain though without the jab there won't be much travel and socialising happening for the non jabbed. 

Personally I didn't overthink it, just the way it is, that's life.

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11 hours ago, simmo said:

 

AZ is not mRNA but I admire both of you for your stance.  I'm not antivax I've had 2x az jabs and booked in for the booster.  I am totally freedom of choice and think it's disgusting how people like you two are being demonised for choosing what goes into your bodies.

✊

 

They're not being demonised. They made the choice they will just have to live with the consequences. If anything Quoll, going out protesting is demonising vaxxed people.

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3 hours ago, Quoll said:

People you may once have thought of as friends can really pile on you with “facts” that they should know are false.

The trouble is that when we hear from people who are refusing the vaccine, we only hear from the people who make the most noise.  I have heard and read plenty of information from those who won't get vaccinated and I have yet to find one reasoned, sensible article that isn't full of unsubstantiated claims.  Maybe there are some out there, but they are completely drowned out by deranged people jabbering about Q-Anon type conspiracies or comparing Dr Fauci to Mengele. 

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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24 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

The trouble is that when we hear from people who are refusing the vaccine, we only hear from the people who make the most noise.  I have heard and read plenty of information from those who won't get vaccinated and I have yet to find one reasoned, sensible article that isn't full of unsubstantiated claims.  Maybe there are some out there, but they are completely drowned out by deranged people jabbering about Q-Anon type conspiracies or comparing Dr Fauci to Mengele. 

Isn’t that right. If claims could be substantiated then you’d have to take them seriously. It’s all conjecture and baseless assertions. It’s also a lot of ‘individualism’ and if we have learned anything in all of this it’s that society and community matters. 

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I think the whole vaccine debate is a reflection of how society operates now unfortunately. If you disagree with someone you are accused of demonising them, or similar such language you can see a few posts above. The ability to debate, discuss and disagree has been lost.

People with opposing views become the enemy and must be hated, everything they say on every topic is therefore dismissed or ridiculed. People who weigh up the risks and make a personal choice not to be vaccinated are dismissed as lunatics and on the opposite side experienced and knowledgeable scientists who share their research/promote vaccines are dismissed as being part of an evil conspiracy.

I often wonder why we worry so much about climate change and pandemics when humanity will probably do a good job of wiping itself out through hatred and conflict anyway.

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3 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I think the whole vaccine debate is a reflection of how society operates now unfortunately. If you disagree with someone you are accused of demonising them, or similar such language you can see a few posts above. The ability to debate, discuss and disagree has been lost.

People with opposing views become the enemy and must be hated, everything they say on every topic is therefore dismissed or ridiculed. People who weigh up the risks and make a personal choice not to be vaccinated are dismissed as lunatics and on the opposite side experienced and knowledgeable scientists who share their research/promote vaccines are dismissed as being part of an evil conspiracy.

I often wonder why we worry so much about climate change and pandemics when humanity will probably do a good job of wiping itself out through hatred and conflict anyway.

It is very sad though when I read about anti vaccers saying how much they wish they got vaccinated, just before they die in the ICU.

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Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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This brilliant essay is well worth a read.  Without demonising pro or anti vaxers, it calmly looks at what effect COVID and the way authorities have managed it has effected society.  The human behavioural traits are common worldwide and can be compared to how ....

Anyway please read it.

https://unherd.com/2021/11/how-fear-fuels-the-vaccine-wars/ 

 

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11 minutes ago, Parley said:

It is very sad though when I read about anti vaccers saying how much they wish they got vaccinated, just before they die in the ICU.

Equally sad are the obituaries and stories from people whose lives have been irrevocably changed by vaccine injuries. 

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3 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

They're not being demonised. They made the choice they will just have to live with the consequences. If anything Quoll, going out protesting is demonising vaxxed people.

Not in the least.  The demonstration was against vaccine mandates - my body my choice, remember. There were vaccinated and unvaccinated marching together - nobody was demonised at all.

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17 minutes ago, Parley said:

It is very sad though when I read about anti vaccers saying how much they wish they got vaccinated, just before they die in the ICU.

I read one yesterday, so frustrating for his poor family.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/30/life-tragic-death-john-eyers-fitness-fanatic-who-refused-covid-vaccine

Quote

he can’t remember how the argument about the Covid vaccine started. “John started saying really crazy things that didn’t make sense,” she says. “About how people were only getting the vaccine for free McDonald’s, and there was formaldehyde in it.” The rest of the family remonstrated with him, pulling out their phones to factcheck what he was saying. But John was unmoving. “He kept saying: ‘I won’t be a guinea pig.’”

Quote

 

They went for dinner at a Turkish restaurant and played darts in the garden. John scored a bullseye with his eyes closed and bragged about it all weekend. There was only one other difficult moment, when the family went to a local health club. John refused to wear a mask. The twins had a fight in reception.

“I said: ‘John, put your face mask on,’” Jenny remembers. “‘He said: ‘You aren’t my mother – don’t tell me what to do.’” John eventually acquiesced, then made another easy joke. They went swimming and played tennis and forgot about it.

 

Quote

Many of the people in his life tried to argue with him. “I would tell him: ‘Why won’t you get the jab? You’ll need it if you want to go away on holiday,’” says Jonathan. “He kept saying that he wanted to wait. It wasn’t that he would never get it. But it was more the misinformation, really. For whatever reason, he would not listen to whatever message was coming out of the government. I’d say to him: ‘John, why are you listening to that rubbish?’”

Quote

The falsehoods that John repeated to his family and friends in the months leading up to his death are common tropes in online anti-vaccine spaces and easy to find: the vaccine has dangerous levels of formaldehyde in it; the vaccine is experimental; people are only getting the vaccine for free McDonald’s.

“The best thing that people can do is realise that social media platforms are fundamentally unsafe environments to gain facts about a pandemic that might kill you,” says Imran Ahmed, the CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate. “Social media contains vast amounts of misinformation that mingles seamlessly with good information. The misinformation might kill you.”

Quote

 

John tested positive for Covid on 29 June. By 3 July, he was seriously unwell. Amy, the woman who had recently become his girlfriend, had to force him to call 111 for help. Later that day, he was taken to Southport & Ormskirk hospital by ambulance.

Quote

On the morning of 27 July, John’s family got the call they had been dreading. He was dying; they should come in right away. They raced to the hospital, but John had stabilised by the time they arrived. Staff told them to go home and said they would call back if there was any change.

About an hour later, the hospital called back. The family piled into the car and started driving to the hospital at top speed. Nurses kept calling, telling them to hurry. They raced to the ICU, where staff were waiting with PPE. Jenny could hear the alarms going off in her brother’s room. “I couldn’t stop shaking,” she says. “It felt like a monster was about to come out of my mouth and I couldn’t control it.”

When they had finally tugged on the PPE, they ran into his room. It was full of ICU staff, all in tears. John had just died.

 

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10 minutes ago, Quoll said:

Equally sad are the obituaries and stories from people whose lives have been irrevocably changed by vaccine injuries. 

not as sad as those whose lives have changed so much that they no longer have one, or those of their families who have to live on without them.

 

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3 minutes ago, Robert Dyson said:

not as sad as those whose lives have changed so much that they no longer have one, or those of their families who have to live on without them.

 

Precisely, thinking especially of the 30 something mum in USA who only wanted to be part of her kids' education and had to be jabbed in order to do so - 4 kids now motherless.  So very sad.

 

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