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Australian and UK Covid Responses

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2 hours ago, Blue Flu said:

I think depending on own capacity to do so. For example to enter the ocean to rescue a child, as mentioned, must be weighed by capacity to be able to render assistance. If a poor or non swimmer it would not be advisable to place self t risk and indeed others more capable of performing the task and perhaps needing to rescue a further person. 

So, if this is an analogy, let's examine it in the context of vaccination.

X sees a child in the surf.  The child is out of its depth but well within the depth for X.    It's obvious the child is in danger but they are not actually drowning yet.   There's a good chance she might even manage to get to shore herself.

X thinks to himself, "I could take pre-emptive action to protect that child, because there is no actual evidence that I'd be putting myself in any danger by doing so. But wait, there is an unknown possible risk - maybe there's a hidden side-effect of my action, which I can't predict at this point.  A shark maybe."  So he decides his safety is paramount, and does nothing. 

Unfortunately this child is one of those unfortunate children who drowns.

How would society judge his actions?

Edited by Marisawright
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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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43 minutes ago, rtritudr said:

The divergence between the UK and the rest of Europe is quite intriguing.  Apparently it's mostly down to mask wearing and the use of AZ:

https://www.ft.com/content/34582534-4510-4d45-bcba-2f9e04005309

I've been reading Europeans are scared at the relaxed manner they encourage when visiting Britain. (The FT is behind a wall ) 

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We are becoming very selfish in our attitudes.

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Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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3 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

So, if this is an analogy, let's examine it in the context of vaccination.

X sees a child in the surf.  The child is out of its depth but well within the depth for X.    It's obvious the child is in danger but they are not actually drowning yet.   There's a good chance she might even manage to get to shore herself.

X thinks to himself, "I could take pre-emptive action to protect that child, because there is no actual evidence that I'd be putting myself in any danger by doing so. But wait, there is an unknown possible risk - maybe there's a hidden side-effect of my action, which I can't predict at this point.  A shark maybe."  So he decides his safety is paramount, and does nothing. 

Unfortunately this child is one of those unfortunate children who drowns.

How would society judge his actions?

But if X is not in danger as within depth the danger posed is zero to minimal and little need for caution. (as you rightly stated) To imagine other imaginary reasons like a shark (surely a shark would be visible so close to beach) would  be criminal in not rendering assistance under those given circumstances. 

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2 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

Having an abortion is basically destroying a viable life. Having a jab could be potentially saving many and, at the least, stopping yourself from getting really sick.

Not that I'm against abortion at all, it's something that should always be considered when an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy comes along.

My point is that we are told it's all about "choice" - "my body - my choice" and all that.

In which case why are those who choose not to have the vaccine demonised so much?

I have had both jabs BTW. I just don't feel comfortable with the pressure put on others to have it.

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1 minute ago, Parley said:

We are becoming very selfish in our attitudes.

In a sense it has been implemented on us by a system that favours the individual and competition , over community and co operation. When you see your fellow traveller as a competitor , in most things, it is hardly likely bonding will occur. 

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3 hours ago, simmo said:

Anyone who is forced to chose between their job or not being jabbed.

I think if you feel 'that' strongly about not getting the jab, perhaps you should reevaluate your career choices and not work closely 'with' people. COVID is new. Businesses and industry have to adapt to the risk. The public health response is appropriate and perfectly just. Anything less would be negligent. 

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3 hours ago, simmo said:

Anyone who is forced to chose between their job or not being jabbed.

What about people being 'forced' to mix with unvaccinated people? In my workplace there are more of us concerned about that scenario than the opposite. 

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33 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

So, if this is an analogy, let's examine it in the context of vaccination.

X sees a child in the surf.  The child is out of its depth but well within the depth for X.    It's obvious the child is in danger but they are not actually drowning yet.   There's a good chance she might even manage to get to shore herself.

X thinks to himself, "I could take pre-emptive action to protect that child, because there is no actual evidence that I'd be putting myself in any danger by doing so. But wait, there is an unknown possible risk - maybe there's a hidden side-effect of my action, which I can't predict at this point.  A shark maybe."  So he decides his safety is paramount, and does nothing. 

Unfortunately this child is one of those unfortunate children who drowns.

How would society judge his actions?

And the child could grow up to be a mass murderer...

At the end of the day, anti vaxers are scabs, and I don't support scabs.


Nearly there! Don't drop the ball now guys! Vaccines are weeks away. Stay safe!

 

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22 minutes ago, Blue Flu said:

But if X is not in danger as within depth the danger posed is zero to minimal and little need for caution. (as you rightly stated) To imagine other imaginary reasons like a shark (surely a shark would be visible so close to beach) would  be criminal in not rendering assistance under those given circumstances. 

...which is exactly what the person choosing not to vaccinate is doing.  If they're an adult, there are no known risks to getting the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, even though millions have already been vaccinated.   When I point this out to anti-vaxxers, they usually say, "but we don't know what side effects may emerge in the future".  So, they are refusing to take action based on the nebulous possibility that some downside may be discovered in the future, same as the rescuer.

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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8 minutes ago, HappyHeart said:

What about people being 'forced' to mix with unvaccinated people? In my workplace there are more of us concerned about that scenario than the opposite. 

...or what about doctors and nurses being forced to nurse them if they get Covid?

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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I don’t think it’s as black and white as why wouldn’t you get the jab to save others.   Almost everyone says the right thing and that they would take a risk to save another yet is that what everyone really thinks.  The first thing that came to my mind was organ donation.  So many people die waiting for a donation because a high percentage of families won’t help them by agreeing to give away something from their dying/dead loved one (or indeed the healthy living person has never done a thing about letting people know their wishes to be a good person and help others) the risk to a dead person giving someone the chance to live is zero yet still it often doesn’t happen.  That makes it very hard to criticise someone who says they are reluctant to risk their own health/life for strangers when some of those saying it wouldn’t help someone in desperate need when there is zero risk.  It is clear from many things that people don’t always do the good thing and think of others.   

Edited by Tulip1
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50 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

...or what about doctors and nurses being forced to nurse them if they get Covid?

Indeed.

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1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

there are no known risks to getting the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines

Anaphylaxis is one. There's no such thing as a 100% safe vaccine. 

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1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

So, if this is an analogy, let's examine it in the context of vaccination.

X sees a child in the surf.  The child is out of its depth but well within the depth for X.    It's obvious the child is in danger but they are not actually drowning yet.   There's a good chance she might even manage to get to shore herself.

X thinks to himself, "I could take pre-emptive action to protect that child, because there is no actual evidence that I'd be putting myself in any danger by doing so. But wait, there is an unknown possible risk - maybe there's a hidden side-effect of my action, which I can't predict at this point.  A shark maybe."  So he decides his safety is paramount, and does nothing. 

Unfortunately this child is one of those unfortunate children who drowns.

How would society judge his actions?

I may well judge X's (in)actions very harshly depending on the circumstances, too. I just don't think it should be a matter for the law.

Edited by DIG85

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5 hours ago, simmo said:

Anyone who is forced to chose between their job or not being jabbed.

As I understand it they are simply being required to live up the expectations of their job contract and fulfill the altruistic expectations of their professions and their commitment is being seen for what it is, low, and judged accordingly.

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5 hours ago, simmo said:

Anyone who is forced to chose between their job or not being jabbed.

Should they be so selfish as to expect gainful empoyment when they're willing to put their colleagues in danger? Surely they would make themselves unsuitable for many jobs, but not all, so it's just a career adjustment due to personal beliefs?  

They could find a job where they're at minimal risk to a society, or perhaps retrain for a priority position such as truck driver,  outdoors worker, or online salesperson where they are less of a risk of catching and perpetuating a disease by spreading it? 

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2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

...or what about doctors and nurses being forced to nurse them if they get Covid?

Good point...many have died to to prolonged exposure. 

I hear there will be new health policy coming out and the need to split ICU's as well.  One to split and protect the staff into separate ICU workforces to cover risk of absence, secondly to protect other non-covid ICU patients from catching covid from an infectee who would have expected admittance.   This will all require additional funding.

They should charge anti-vaxxers a covid levy if they choose not to protect themselves but then expect emergency treatment.

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45 minutes ago, Robert Dyson said:

Should they be so selfish as to expect gainful empoyment when they're willing to put their colleagues in danger? Surely they would make themselves unsuitable for many jobs, but not all, so it's just a career adjustment due to personal beliefs?  

They could find a job where they're at minimal risk to a society, or perhaps retrain for a priority position such as truck driver,  outdoors worker, or online salesperson where they are less of a risk of catching and perpetuating a disease by spreading it? 

Why would someone who is unvaccinated put a vaccinated person in danger?  As both are able to catch and transmit the disease there seems to be no coercive justification for requiring someone to have a jab.  Unvaccinated people are at the same risk to society as vaccinated people.  It's the infected one needs to worry about not the unvaccinated.

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2 hours ago, DIG85 said:

Anaphylaxis is one. There's no such thing as a 100% safe vaccine. 

Also swollen heart disease. (Can't remember the medical term)

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18 minutes ago, Quoll said:

Why would someone who is unvaccinated put a vaccinated person in danger?  As both are able to catch and transmit the disease there seems to be no coercive justification for requiring someone to have a jab.  Unvaccinated people are at the same risk to society as vaccinated people.  It's the infected one needs to worry about not the unvaccinated.

For which there are many effective (but less profitable) thereputics

Edited by simmo
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1 hour ago, Robert Dyson said:

Good point...many have died to to prolonged exposure. 

I hear there will be new health policy coming out and the need to split ICU's as well.  One to split and protect the staff into separate ICU workforces to cover risk of absence, secondly to protect other non-covid ICU patients from catching covid from an infectee who would have expected admittance.   This will all require additional funding.

They should charge anti-vaxxers a covid levy if they choose not to protect themselves but then expect emergency treatment.

And smokers, drinkers, those that participate in dangerous sports..?

 

Edited by simmo
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Although UK « Covid » deaths published daily appear very high compared to other European countries, it’s not clear that all countries count Covid deaths in the same way.  It is always stated in the UK figures that the deaths have occurred within 28 days of a Covid diagnosis.  However, this may include people killed in a car accident, a cancer patient, someone in their nineties with organ failure …..they tested positive for Covid but did not necessarily die from it.

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37 minutes ago, Cup Final 1973 said:

Although UK « Covid » deaths published daily appear very high compared to other European countries, it’s not clear that all countries count Covid deaths in the same way.  It is always stated in the UK figures that the deaths have occurred within 28 days of a Covid diagnosis.  However, this may include people killed in a car accident, a cancer patient, someone in their nineties with organ failure …..they tested positive for Covid but did not necessarily die from it.

This is a very good thread that attempts to explain the UK figures.  There are some very complicated datasets being explained, but it seems to come back to this "normalisation" and not doing the right thing, partially by not wearing masks, but moreso not behaving appropriately indoors. Also UK vaccine wane is a growing problem.  It cannot really be blamed on counting differences.

 

 

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10 hours ago, HappyHeart said:

What about people being 'forced' to mix with unvaccinated people? In my workplace there are more of us concerned about that scenario than the opposite. 

I think you work in health care ? 
anybody not vaccinated (nsw) no job , no problem with colleges, what will you do if a patient is not vaccinated? Don’t treat them ? 

why don’t government just make it mandatory? 

 

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