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Australian and UK Covid Responses

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15 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

Shows what can be done when a city's residents are politicians, civil servants and their families. Looking after number one, eh. Shame they couldn't be so efficient for the rest of us.

Or to look at it another way, we know that vaccine hesitancy is most widespread in lower socio-economic groups.  There's not much work for them in Canberra compared to other cities so the population is heavily skewed towards the well-educated.

The vaccine rollout in Melbourne has been highly efficient, now that Commonwealth supply issues have been ironed out.  I believe Sydney has been very good, too, after a rocky start.  It's not the efficiency of the rollouts that's the problem now, it's people dragging their feet to get vaccinated, or refusing outright.


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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4 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Or to look at it another way, we know that vaccine hesitancy is most widespread in lower socio-economic groups.  There's not much work for them in Canberra compared to other cities so the population is heavily skewed towards the well-educated.

Yep, it's all the plebs' fault that they're not vaccinated! All those working class povvos, thick as mince meat. Look at all those highly intelligent people in Canberra!

Edited by DIG85
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Looking at the latest daily cases coming out of Victoria (2,297), you have to say that there is no evidence whatsoever that lockdowns are a particularly reliable predictor of outcomes.

Victoria has been more conservative than NSW in its lockdown measures by a huge distance. And yet it has by far the worst COVID outcomes of the nation. It has double the number of deaths of NSW. It has spent double the time in lockdown that NSW has. 

People who think the UK locking down a week or so earlier in March 2020 would have made a huge difference are making a completely evidence-free assertion.

 

 

Edited by DIG85

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1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

Because AZ decided to work on a non-profit basis given Covid was a crisis for humanity.  

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd wonder if the other companies made sure the whole blood clot thing was blown up out of proportion, just to get rid of the cheap competition....

There is medical evidence that it causes blood clots , not everyone but some. 

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20 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

Looking at the latest daily cases coming out of Victoria (2,297), you have to say that there is no real evidence whatsoever that lockdowns are particularly effective.

Again, rubbish.  

Melbourne had a big outbreak in 2020.  Mistakes were made, not surprisingly because it was their first experience of an outbreak.  800 people died, (worth noting that most of them were in  Commonwealth-run aged care homes, where Victorian officials weren't even allowed to enter).  That outbreak was totally quashed by thelockdown.  We got back to zero Covid. Not effective, you reckon?  

Since then we've had a few minor outbreaks and quashed them all back to zero, including Delta outbreaks.  So the lockdowns did work, and more importantly, they didn't just work for Melbourne.  The lockdowns prevented our outbreaks spreading into regional Victoria and from there into the rest of Australia.

Just look at how NSW's "partial lockdowns" have led to widespread infections across NSW, which then spread into the ACT and I reckon it's only a matter of time before it escapes seriously in Queensland.  The current outbreak in Melbourne was caused by returnees from NSW too.

The Victorian government has acknowledged that lockdowns can't control this current Delta outbreak, it's gone too far, so we are now coming out of lockdown.

But we know that about one third of all recent cases originate from AFL grand final parties, and another chunk of them were caused by f*wits staging protests.  So on the evidence of Victoria:

  • Our early lockdowns worked so efficiently, we were able to get back to zero Covid, and that was because people followed the rules
  • This lockdown hasn't worked, partly because it's Delta, but mainly because a minority of f*wits have decided to stop following the rules. 
Edited by Marisawright
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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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1 minute ago, Rallyman said:

There is medical evidence that it causes blood clots , not everyone but some. 

Yes, there is. There is also medical evidence that Pfizer and other vaccines cause heart inflammation, but they didn't get crucified for that in the press, the way AZ did.  The blood clot risk is very small.  Millions and millions of people have had the AZ vaccine and only a few thousand have been affected.

Edited by Marisawright
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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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2 hours ago, Robert Dyson said:

AZ worked as a non-profit, a remarkable gesture for a pharmaceutical.  They would have charged more eventually.....but i doubt they will ever take this route again after the way they've been used as a political tool.   This means no more research and development into improving protections for variants and mutations.

Whether or not the efficacy is as good as Pfizer or Moderna,  AZ offers nearly 100% protection against serious covid and hospitalisation.  Compare that to an annual flu jab where sometimes we get 40% protection and see that as successful, it's a blow to the overall vaccine market.

 

 

I am sure they will continue with research but will charge accordingly next. 

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1 minute ago, Marisawright said:

Yes, there is. There is also medical evidence that Pfizer and other vaccines cause heart inflammation, but they didn't get crucified for that in the press, the way AZ did.  The blood clot risk is very small.  Millions and millions of people have had the AZ vaccine and only a few thousand have been affected.

I am not disagreeing with you.  My Doctor refused point blank to give me AZ   Why ? 

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48 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Or to look at it another way, we know that vaccine hesitancy is most widespread in lower socio-economic groups.  There's not much work for them in Canberra compared to other cities so the population is heavily skewed towards the well-educated.

The vaccine rollout in Melbourne has been highly efficient, now that Commonwealth supply issues have been ironed out.  I believe Sydney has been very good, too, after a rocky start.  It's not the efficiency of the rollouts that's the problem now, it's people dragging their feet to get vaccinated, or refusing outright.

AZ killed unnecessarily more than a dozen people in Australia. The smart people chose Pfizer which I don't believe killed anyone.


Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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5 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

I am not disagreeing with you.  My Doctor refused point blank to give me AZ   Why ? 

Two possible reasons. 

One is misinformation.   Doctors are just as susceptible to that as anyone else.  There were some newspaper articles about doctors refusing AZ because they had read all the bad publicity and just weren't sure what was true.  

The other is your risk factors.  If your doctor felt there was very little chance of you being exposed to Covid and you have some risk factors, he might have felt you might as well wait for Pfizer.  

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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4 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Again, rubbish.  

Melbourne had a big outbreak in 2020.  Mistakes were made, not surprisingly because it was their first experience of an outbreak.  800 people died, (worth noting that most of them were in  Commonwealth-run aged care homes, where Victorian officials weren't even allowed to enter).  That outbreak was totally quashed by thelockdown.  We got back to zero Covid. Not effective, you reckon?  

Since then we've had a few minor outbreaks and quashed them all back to zero, including Delta outbreaks.  So the lockdowns did work, and more importantly, they didn't just work for Melbourne.  The lockdowns prevented our outbreaks spreading into regional Victoria and from there into the rest of Australia.

Just look at how NSW's "partial lockdowns" have led to widespread infections across NSW, which then spread into the ACT and I reckon it's only a matter of time before it escapes seriously in Queensland.  The current outbreak in Melbourne was caused by returnees from NSW too.

The Victorian government has acknowledged that lockdowns can't control this current Delta outbreak, it's gone too far, so we are now coming out of lockdown. But we know that one third of all recent cases were caused by f*wits having AFL parties and another chunk of them were caused by f*wits staging protests.

Achieving zero COVID is far too narrow a definition of effectiveness of lockdowns. Particularly when zero COVID is not sustainable in the medium term, as demonstrated by the fact that Melbourne has been yo-yoing in an out (mostly in) of lockdown for the past 18 months.

You need to take into account the mental health and economic impact of the Victorian lockdowns. Victoria has destroyed its economy, in particular the Melbourne CBD is going to be a ghost down for a long time to come.

Aiming for zero COVID, which was Victoria's aim for so long, was a fool's errand. It was also dangerous, because it lulled the populace into a false sense of security, believing that it's safer to remain unvaccinated than to take the supposedly risky AZ vaccine. The result was that when the far more contagious Delta variant emerged in May/June, we were sitting ducks. Splendid isolation only works temporarily.

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1 minute ago, Parley said:

AZ killed unnecessarily more than a dozen people in Australia. The smart people chose Pfizer which I don't believe killed anyone.

Pfizer has killed a couple of young people in the US.  

What's more important is that waiting for Pfizer has probably killed people, but we may never know how many.  How many people are in ICU right now, who wanted to get vaccinated but decided to wait for Pfizer?  if they'd got their double jab of AZ, they would still get Covid but they wouldn't be in ICU.

I know one example personally.  My friend's niece.  Her mother was anxious about AZ so she advised the niece to wait for Pfizer.  She was booked in for an appointment.  She is now dead.

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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9 minutes ago, Parley said:

AZ killed unnecessarily more than a dozen people in Australia. The smart people chose Pfizer which I don't believe killed anyone.

Many people have died since July 2021 because they were unvaccinated, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney. Many of these people refused a perfectly safe and effective vaccine in the form of AZ when it was available to them back in the autumn, thinking that they could wait until the apparently much safer Pfizer arrived. I suspect the number of these people is substantially more than a dozen.

That is a serious side effect of zero COVID policy. People end up thinking they have the luxury of being able to choose which vaccine they should receive. They then pay the ultimate price.

 

Edited by DIG85
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5 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

Aiming for zero COVID, which was Victoria's aim for so long, was a fool's errand. It was also dangerous, because it lulled the populace into a false sense of security, believing that it's safer to remain unvaccinated than to take the supposedly risky AZ vaccine. The result was that when the far more contagious Delta variant emerged in May/June, we were sitting ducks. Splendid isolation only works temporarily.

The problem with NOT aiming for zero Covid is that you can't have "a little" Covid.  As Sydney's outbreak proved, once you let Covid in, it takes off exponentially.  

The problem was not the zero Covid policy.  It was the Federal government being complacent and thinking it could take its time over the vaccine rollout (as you say, that was wrong).  If the AZ scare hadn't happened, I think we would have got good response to the vaccine rollout in spite of the slowness.  

Also remember that the advisory body, whatever their name is, made things worse by basically saying, "there's no Covid in Australia so therefore everyone can afford to wait".  Stupid, stupid advice.  

Edited by Marisawright

Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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2 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

 

Many unvaccinated people have died since July 2021 because they were unvaccinated, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney. Many of these people refused a perfectly safe and effective vaccine in the form of AZ when it was available to them back in the autumn, thinking that they could wait until the apparently much safer Pfizer arrived. I suspect the number of these people is substantially more than a dozen.

 

No. The people dying and in hospital are anti vaccers totally.

Edited by Parley

Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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1 minute ago, Parley said:

No. The people dying and in hospital are anti vaccers totally.

How do you know? I just gave you one example of one who wasn't. 

Edited by Marisawright

Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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5 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Pfizer has killed a couple of young people in the US.  

What's more important is that waiting for Pfizer has probably killed people, but we may never know how many.  How many people are in ICU right now, who wanted to get vaccinated but decided to wait for Pfizer?  if they'd got their double jab of AZ, they would still get Covid but they wouldn't be in ICU.

I know one example personally.  My friend's niece.  Her mother was anxious about AZ so she advised the niece to wait for Pfizer.  She was booked in for an appointment.  She is now dead.

How old is this niece? Are you talking about a child or an adult ?


Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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18 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

If the AZ scare hadn't happened, I think we would have got good response to the vaccine rollout in spite of the slowness.  Also remember that the advisory body, whatever their name is, made things worse by basically saying, "there's no Covid in Australia so therefore everyone can afford to wait".  Stupid, stupid advice.  

That I completely agree with.

The AZ scaremongering was a disaster.

Edited by DIG85
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AZ was only recommended for over 60s due to the risk.


Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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2 minutes ago, Parley said:

AZ was only recommended for over 60s due to the risk.

But unfortunately that had the unintended effect of putting off a lot of over 60s too, who thought "why should we be guinea pigs? If it's not good enough for the under 60s, why should it be good enough for us?"

Some of these over 60s then held out for Pfizer, but by the time delta arrived, for some it was alas too late.

The AZ communication was terrible, and I think ATAGI must share most of the blame. It was clear that ATAGI not in pandemic settings mode: it assumed that Australia would continue to be COVID free. That assumption was a huge error.

Edited by DIG85
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2 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

But unfortunately that had the unintended effect of putting off a lot of over 60s too, who thought "why should we be guinea pigs? If it's not good enough for the under 60s, why should it be good enough for us?"

Some of these over 60s then held out for Pfizer, but by the time delta arrived, for some it was alas too late.

 

True. I would have done the same. I was an over 50 and waited for Pfizer. I felt vindicated when they banned AZ for people in their 50s anyway.

I am in the Eastern suburbs though and very little covid here. It is mostly in the Western suburbs and Northern suburbs.


Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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56 minutes ago, Parley said:

True. I would have done the same. I was an over 50 and waited for Pfizer. I felt vindicated when they banned AZ for people in their 50s anyway.

I am in the Eastern suburbs though and very little covid here. It is mostly in the Western suburbs and Northern suburbs.

There is no Covid here at all but most of the older people here had the AZ jab and are all absolutely fine.  The younger ones had the Pfizer jab and again all are fine.  

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31 minutes ago, Toots said:

There is no Covid here at all but most of the older people here had the AZ jab and are all absolutely fine.  The younger ones had the Pfizer jab and again all are fine.  

I think you've got one today.

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2 hours ago, Parley said:

How old is this niece? Are you talking about a child or an adult ?

Adult.


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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1 hour ago, Parley said:

True. I would have done the same. I was an over 50 and waited for Pfizer. I felt vindicated when they banned AZ for people in their 50s anyway.

I am in the Eastern suburbs though and very little covid here. It is mostly in the Western suburbs and Northern suburbs.

Yes, that's what I mean. You assessed the odds, and decided to take the gamble.  You won.  Some people dont.


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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