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Australian and UK Covid Responses

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5 hours ago, Marisawright said:

It wasn't a "small group" that misbehaved

The percentage of tradies that misbehaved was small.  If it had been a bigger percentage of them I’d still say punishing innocent people is wrong.  It wasn’t though.  In percentage terms it was a small group.  Hopefully the welfare benefit matched what the innocent  majority would have earned.  I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I was out of pocket and punished because some people that I’d never even met did something wrong.  If Dan had said ‘I’m sorry for the many that have done no wrong but we have to do this….be assured you’ll get every penny you would have had, these idiots have caused this not you.  Of course he didn’t say that.  It seems he can programme people to think things that aren’t right are.  It’s not ok to punish innocent people, it’s immoral and wrong.   I’m surprised to hear the hospital staff have only a choice of their car park or a park for their breaks.  I’d imagine many use public transport to get to work then it’s the park for them.  They must have many a wet lunch break.  I know hospitals here had lots of those portacabins put in the car parks and furnished so that they still had somewhere so sit and have a break (sitting was spaced out as much as possible, back to back style, that sort of thing)  Of course they understand the science behind it but not everyone thinks the same.  I’m not in any way standing up for law breakers and I think the actions of those tradies who caused damage and disruption was disgusting. It’s the law abiding people I’m standing up for.  

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30 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

The percentage of tradies that misbehaved was small. 

You're talkinga bout the percentage of tradies who marched on the Union headquarters.  I'm talking about the percentage of building sites that were breaking the rules.  That was huge and that's why the shutdown was necessary. 

AFAIK, hospitals are not using portacabins, because their air flow is just as bad as indoors. 

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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4 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

You're talkinga bout the percentage of tradies who marched on the Union headquarters.  I'm talking about the percentage of building sites that were breaking the rules.  That was huge and that's why the shutdown was necessary. 

AFAIK, hospitals are not using portacabins, because their air flow is just as bad as indoors. 

So to confirm, you’re saying Dan Andrews didn’t order the shutdown off the back of the protects and the behaviour around that, he ordered it because of other issues.  It was just coincidently at the same time when he said right you’re going home and as punishment no tradies are allowed to work for two weeks.  I’ve missed something there then as everything I’ve read, seen and heard makes it sound like it was in retaliation to what was happening at that moment.  To be clear, I have no alliance with tradies and I don’t know any there.  For me, it’s about punishing the whole flock and that’s wrong.  

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34 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

So to confirm, you’re saying Dan Andrews didn’t order the shutdown off the back of the protects and the behaviour around that, he ordered it because of other issues.  It was just coincidently at the same time 

It wasn't a coincidence.  There was a press conference where the major non-compliance on building sites was revealed, and the government said they were in discussion with the unions to get it fixed urgently, but that lunch rooms had to close immediately.  In retaliation, there was a major "sit-in" protest which stopped the traffic in the city, followed by the protest where they marched on the Union offices.  So one thing was a consequence of the next.  Faced with the lack of cooperation, the government felt it had no choice but to have a short shutdown, until agreement could be reached and the non-compliance fixed.   Small building sites were allowed to reopen before the two weeks was up, as the govt was satisfied they had done the right thing.

Edited by Marisawright
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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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1 hour ago, Tulip1 said:

So to confirm, you’re saying Dan Andrews didn’t order the shutdown off the back of the protects and the behaviour around that, he ordered it because of other issues.

Spot on👍

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7 hours ago, Robert Dyson said:

I think Australians were given until May 2020 to return, non-residents were excluded from March?  There was ample time for the UK to put measures into place and give people months to return, or better still, just stay put.   My parents locked down in the UK on March 1st 2020, weeks before the UK government did.   

 

So why didn't every country in Europe shut its border then? Yes, it was legally possible for the UK to close its borders - no one denies that. However, if it was politically, economically or socially possible to have done so, it would have happened.

And in any event, the closure of the UK border would likely have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. COVID was circulating widely in the UK by mid-February, and no significant person or organisation was actually calling for the UK to close its borders, even in March 2020. 

Edited by DIG85

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37 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

So why didn't every country in Europe shut its border then? Yes, it was legally possible for the UK to close its borders - no one denies that. However, if it was politically, economically or socially possible to have done so, it would have happened.

And in any event, the closure of the UK border would likely have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. COVID was circulating widely in the UK by mid-February, and no significant person or organisation was actually calling for the UK to close its borders, even in March 2020. 

That is exactly why the UK and other European countries didn’t close their borders. It was too late for it to be effective. 

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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2 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

That is exactly why the UK and other European countries didn’t close their borders. It was too late for it to be effective. 

Exactly. Europe was riddled with COVID before anyone had the time to act.

Comparing the European response to COVID to that of Australia is impossible, ridiculous and pointless.

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10 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

is impossible, ridiculous and pointless.

There's quite a bit of that on here, you get used to it - slowly😉

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6 hours ago, DIG85 said:

Exactly. Europe was riddled with COVID before anyone had the time to act.

Comparing the European response to COVID to that of Australia is impossible, ridiculous and pointless.

I do remember with sars there were restrictions on coming back to work after you had been overseas etc in Australia.

It might have slowed it down a bit.


Nearly there! Don't drop the ball now guys! Vaccines are weeks away. Stay safe!

 

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On 06/10/2021 at 21:24, Robert Dyson said:

I give it a few more days and people will just forget it. Over the border in ACT they've hit a first dose of 95%+ and they're including 12 years old and above..so will they even wait until next Friday? 

Lockdown ends at midnight today 10 Oct. Until then nothing changes. We're freer than a couple of weeks ago of course but all restrictions remain in place.

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2 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

Lockdown ends at midnight today 10 Oct. Until then nothing changes. We're freer than a couple of weeks ago of course but all restrictions remain in place.

ACT is meant to be midnight on 14th, NSW is tonight.  It's a nightmare going back and to over the border trying to understand the subtle differences in restrictions where you have a lot of NSW residents reliant on services in the ACT, though the police patrols on either side have been pretty reasonable....there are so many scenarios to consider, split families, essential workers, elderly care, hospital access,  service provisioning requiring shorter travel but over the border.

Main interest is in where are the barbers are opening first 🙂

 

 

Edited by Robert Dyson

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14 hours ago, DIG85 said:

So why didn't every country in Europe shut its border then? Yes, it was legally possible for the UK to close its borders - no one denies that. However, if it was politically, economically or socially possible to have done so, it would have happened.

And in any event, the closure of the UK border would likely have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. COVID was circulating widely in the UK by mid-February, and no significant person or organisation was actually calling for the UK to close its borders, even in March 2020. 

Rory Stewart was calling for it at the end of February, and shutting down just a week earlier than the late March shutdown could have saved between 20,000 and 30,000 lives.  You will remember they initially started out promoting herd immunity, but rapidly backtracked when it dawned on them what that entailed.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/uk-coronavirus-death-toll-halved-boris-johnson-locked-down-earlier-2020-6?r=US&IR=T

To say that it would have made no difference is completely crazy.  The whole point of the response of every capable country on the planet has been to contain spread by reducing transmission.  South Korea did it, China did it, SIngapore did it, Malaysia did it.  And how might you best do that?  By not only stopping people coming in, but also by stopping them going out to spread it around the world.  The UK variant quickly became dominant in America.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/03/12/rory-stewart-coronavirus-boris-johnson.cnn

 

 

Edited by Robert Dyson
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On 09/10/2021 at 13:03, Nemesis said:

These are the forgotten victims of the closed borders - families who own homes or are paying rent in Queensland but are not allowed in.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/karrina-kemp-pays-585-rent-for-her-home-but-she-s-living-in-a-tent-at-the-qld-border-20210930-p58w3m.html

Karrina Kemp never expected to be living in a tent with three children, but that’s all she can afford while waiting to be allowed to cross the Queensland border.

Ms Kemp is one of more than 11,000 Queenslanders stranded in NSW or Victoria while waiting for border passes or exemptions to be allowed across the border. She is also one of several people who told The Sun-Herald they were sleeping in a tent or car as a result, mostly in NSW border towns and some in Victoria.

Ms Kemp, 43, is still paying $585 a week rent for her home in Bundaberg, and it costs an additional $360 a week to stay in the tent park in Ballina in northern NSW, where she has spent the past three weeks.

She said her daughter, 12, and son, 13, were “beyond frustrated and getting upset” about living in the tent and not being able to go home. Her youngest child, 18 months, is enjoying the outdoor exploration but having meltdowns when it rains, or it is time to come inside.

 

I really struggle feeling sorry for these people, when you actually read about this family, Mum CHOOSE to leave QLD to go and spend ski season with her friends and ONLY decided to try and come back when the house she was staying in was sold.

She has been told she CAN enter QLD if she goes into quarantine like the rules state. Quarantine would cost her approx the same as around 10 or 11 weeks stay where she is now and can be paid off so she wouldnt need the full amount upfront...

.IMO she is not a victim, she made her own choices to leave the State during a pandemic,knowing full well if there was an outbreak she would need to quarantine on her return and the border would be closed.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/karrina-kemp-pays-585-rent-for-her-home-but-she-s-living-in-a-tent-at-the-qld-border-20210930-p58w3m.html

Cal x

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4 hours ago, Robert Dyson said:

Rory Stewart was calling for it at the end of February, and shutting down just a week earlier than the late March shutdown could have saved between 20,000 and 30,000 lives.  You will remember they initially started out promoting herd immunity, but rapidly backtracked when it dawned on them what that entailed.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/uk-coronavirus-death-toll-halved-boris-johnson-locked-down-earlier-2020-6?r=US&IR=T

To say that it would have made no difference is completely crazy.  The whole point of the response of every capable country on the planet has been to contain spread by reducing transmission.  South Korea did it, China did it, SIngapore did it, Malaysia did it.  And how might you best do that?  By not only stopping people coming in, but also by stopping them going out to spread it around the world.  The UK variant quickly became dominant in America.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/03/12/rory-stewart-coronavirus-boris-johnson.cnn

 

 

That is false - Stewart did not call for the UK to close its border at the end of February 2020. Stewart did call for lockdown at that time, but doing so was against the public health advice at that time. Herd immunity was actually being promoted - initially and only briefly - by Valance and Whitty, not by the UK government. 

The assertion that 20k-30k lives would have been saved had the UK locked down a week earlier comes from Neil Ferguson, so it is best taken with a pinch of salt. Ferguson is of course the bloke who said that on opening up in July 2021 that it was "almost inevitable" that the UK would have 100,000 daily cases and "could be as many as 200,000" daily cases. In fact the UK has never recorded more than 50,000 daily cases since re-opening, and now appears to be fairly stable at 30-40k daily cases. Ferguson also claimed that up to 200m people would die from bird flu and, back in the 1990s, he claimed that up to 50,000 could die from BSE/CJD. He is the worst kind of scaremonger. He also had to resign because he broke lockdown rules. His moral and scientific record is appalling and it's a huge mistake listening to him.

Comparing the UK - or any other European country -  to South Korea (permanently on civil emergency settings due to its volatile neighbour); China (a communist state which welded the doors of apartment buildings shut); and Singapore (an authoritarian city state that tracks its citizens' movements) is just absurd.

Edited by DIG85
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1 hour ago, DIG85 said:

South Korea (permanently on civil emergency settings due to its volatile neighbour)

I've just seen an item on ABC News channel about S Korea. They put every single person who tests positive for COVID - even those with no or mild symptoms - into government-run quarantine facilities. That's every one who tests positive in the country - not just international arrivals. They then had Prof Mike Toole of the Burnet Institute calling for Australia to adopt the same regime. This is an absolutely shocking call at a time when we have 70% of over 16s double dosed in NSW are heading for well over 90%. 

Here is the online article:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-10/south-korea-mandatory-quarantine-for-the-covid-positive/100514744

Edited by DIG85
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21 hours ago, DIG85 said:

Yes, it was legally possible for the UK to close its borders - no one denies that. However, if it was politically, economically or socially possible to have done so, it would have happened

I disagree with this.  It did eventually happen which means it was possible.  The UK was very slow at closing borders.  Even when things were really bad hundreds of thousands of people (I’m not talking about citizens) were landing here every week from all over the world.  No quarantine, no checks.  It was very poor.  People were meant to quarantine at home but of course many didn’t.  Not every one does as they are asked, many people are very selfish and don’t care about the safety of others. Eventually the government acted but far too late.  Even when India had huge Covid numbers, the UK government announced on the Monday it was closing its borders to India on the Friday.  In those 5 days there were hundreds of flights between India and the UK.   Thousands and thousands of people arrived in that period, no hotel quarantine at that time, just off your go and spread it about.  The UK made some very bad mistakes and the human cost was high.  It did some good things too but the open border situation was very poor. 

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21 hours ago, DIG85 said:

Exactly. Europe was riddled with COVID before anyone had the time to act.

Comparing the European response to COVID to that of Australia is impossible, ridiculous and pointless.

Surely it’s never too late to act.  Europe may have been riddled with it but we allowed free movement for far too long and the world kept on coming in.  You’re right, it cannot be compared to Australia as it wasn’t as easy to shut borders as it was for them.   I’m as patriotic as it gets but I can’t pretend the UK didn’t stuff it up were open borders are concerned, they did. 

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24 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

I disagree with this.  It did eventually happen which means it was possible.  The UK was very slow at closing borders.  

No it didn't. Neither the UK nor any comparable European country has ever closed its borders during the pandemic. It has banned travel from some countries, but it has never imposed blanket bans on non-residents and non-citizens in the way SE Asian countries and ANZ have done.

And incidentally, the UK travel ban from India did not include British citizens or residents, who were still permitted to return to the UK. This is unlike the Australian travel ban from India, which did include Australian citizens and residents, who were not permitted to return to Australia. Accordingly, the impact of the UK's India travel ban was likely very negligible.

The UK has far more people travelling into and through it than Australia. It's not just a question of scaling up. With the numbers involved it becomes almost impossible to manage hotel quarantine.

No serious organisation that I am aware of ever called for the UK to close its borders during the pandemic. Not the Labour Party, not the BMA, not the CBI, not the TUC. I suspect the BNP may well have, which shows you just how practical and realistic the idea was.

Edited by DIG85

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11 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

I disagree with this.  It did eventually happen which means it was possible.  The UK was very slow at closing borders.  Even when things were really bad hundreds of thousands of people (I’m not talking about citizens) were landing here every week from all over the world.  No quarantine, no checks.  It was very poor.  People were meant to quarantine at home but of course many didn’t.  Not every one does as they are asked, many people are very selfish and don’t care about the safety of others. Eventually the government acted but far too late.  Even when India had huge Covid numbers, the UK government announced on the Monday it was closing its borders to India on the Friday.  In those 5 days there were hundreds of flights between India and the UK.   Thousands and thousands of people arrived in that period, no hotel quarantine at that time, just off your go and spread it about.  The UK made some very bad mistakes and the human cost was high.  It did some good things too but the open border situation was very poor. 

I agree with you Tulip.  Blind Freddy can work out that something was lacking with regard to the spread of the disease and a lot of it must come down to slack border controls.

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49 minutes ago, Toots said:

I agree with you Tulip.  Blind Freddy can work out that something was lacking with regard to the spread of the disease and a lot of it must come down to slack border controls.

Re wind to the very beginning and the WHO denied that there was a pandemic let alone it be contagious, 

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16 hours ago, Robert Dyson said:

ACT is meant to be midnight on 14th, NSW is tonight.  It's a nightmare going back and to over the border trying to understand the subtle differences in restrictions where you have a lot of NSW residents reliant on services in the ACT, though the police patrols on either side have been pretty reasonable....there are so many scenarios to consider, split families, essential workers, elderly care, hospital access,  service provisioning requiring shorter travel but over the border.

Main interest is in where are the barbers are opening first 🙂

 

 

Very difficult for people living on a state border. 11,000 Queenlanders stranded on the NSW side of the border I think I read somewhere.

I  can cut my own hair but my local hairdresser opens today 11th and I'll be in there if she is not booked up. 

I've reached 105 days - 15 weeks, since I had a drink.  Almost seems a shame to start again but I will. 

I'd like to go to both Qld and WA but no point in booking because nobody, least of all the state govts know when the borders will open. I've heard it will be after the General Election in 2022 so the Libs are excluded from campaigning there.  Then again it may be that the hospitals are almost overloaded in the ICUs even without Covid-19. 

At least the ACT chief minister has not said "ACT hospitals are for ACT citizens" as Anna said about QLD.

 

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4 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

At least the ACT chief minister has not said "ACT hospitals are for ACT citizens" as Anna said about QLD.

NSW contributes health funding to ACT, which pretty much covers the Far South Coast and Snowies for major hospital services and some services up as far as Goulburn, hence why they they can't shut each other out. 

We had the silly issue of people in the regions around Goulburn being travel banned from the ACT for vaccinations, but the ACT then donating them the vaccinations to ensure they stayed in their own travel zone because the Goulburn supply coming from Sydney was delayed. 

It almost makes sense to draw a horizontal line to the east coast from just north of the ACT and transfer that entire area down to the Victoria border across from NSW.....makes no sense being adminstered from Sydney and bypassing a capital city which provides a lot of their existing services, a major airport, plus which provides about 60% of the coastal region property owners.

 

Edited by Robert Dyson
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19 hours ago, Rallyman said:

Re wind to the very beginning and the WHO denied that there was a pandemic let alone it be contagious, 

I don’t remember that 

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9 minutes ago, HappyHeart said:

I don’t remember that 

Neither do I, we saw news reports of the infections in Wuhan when we were in Europe for Christmas

Edited by Drumbeat

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