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Australian and UK Covid Responses

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3 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

Most normal people think Aus did the right thing.

There’s a lot of people that don’t think that.  It’s talked about here quite a bit.  Australia has gone from the great place to be admired as they closed borders early and had low death rates to the place that is in a dictatorship situation (well Melbourne especially) with much of the nation unhappy and fed up.   

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42 minutes ago, calNgary said:

Thats interesting.  It shows the cases have spiked although there are many more people vaccinated.  It also shows the majority (by far) of cases are 20 somethings   and the majority of deaths is the in the 80 - 89.  Its also shows the deaths of 90 somethings is a 3rd higher for women.  I guess thats because men die earlier than women.

Anyway the main question is: is Australia waiting for cased to go down significantly before it eases lockdown? 

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3 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

There’s a lot of people that don’t think that.  It’s talked about here quite a bit.  Australia has gone from the great place to be admired as they closed borders early and had low death rates to the place that is in a dictatorship situation (well Melbourne especially) with much of the nation unhappy and fed up.   

Most of the nation is living freely and Australia still has very low death rates. If I lived in Melbourne I might feel different as they’ve had a hard time, but most of Australia doesn’t live in Melbourne.

Lockdowns worked through previous outbreaks and there was also a bit of blind luck that delta didn’t arrive earlier. Lockdowns were very effective at preventing deaths and bought time for the vaccination programme to (finally) get going, which has kept deaths low even though lockdowns failed to contain delta.

I do agree most of the nation is fed up with Covid, but in 6 months time we’ll have 90% of over 12s vaccinated, have open borders, an incredibly low death rate from the worst pandemic in 100 years and an economy at pre Covid levels. Not many places have been so lucky and I think a bit of frustration is worth tens of thousands of lives that would have been lost in the absence of lockdowns (pre vaccinations).

 

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4 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

There’s a lot of people that don’t think that.  It’s talked about here quite a bit.  Australia has gone from the great place to be admired as they closed borders early and had low death rates to the place that is in a dictatorship situation (well Melbourne especially) with much of the nation unhappy and fed up.   

they actually still have low death rates, which is something you can't go back and fix later if you get it wrong.

This is a good source of information, written by a bunch of teenagers in Melbourne.

https://covidbaseau.com/

 

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2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Most of the nation is living freely

Many would argue that being stuck in your own state and not being allowed to travel to another state let alone overseas is not living freely.  It’s living safely perhaps but not free.  The biggest issue is in Melbourne and despite those that think it’s all ok,  for many it’s definitely not.  

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1 hour ago, Tulip1 said:

Many would argue that being stuck in your own state and not being allowed to travel to another state let alone overseas is not living freely.  It’s living safely perhaps but not free.  The biggest issue is in Melbourne and despite those that think it’s all ok,  for many it’s definitely not.  

The states are pretty big.

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Nearly there! Don't drop the ball now guys! Vaccines are weeks away. Stay safe!

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

Many would argue that being stuck in your own state and not being allowed to travel to another state let alone overseas is not living freely.  It’s living safely perhaps but not free.  The biggest issue is in Melbourne and despite those that think it’s all ok,  for many it’s definitely not.  

Wo are these "many" you keep mentioning?   I guess for an outsider you might not understand that some of these states are far bigger than the United Kingdom.  My own electorate is a quarter of the size of England.  There is "lockdown", and there is "lockdown"....it has really not been that bad,  you can stay out all day and there are no police because people are pretty well-behaved and the population is quite spread out. Personal responsbility.

I cannot really see the point of these continual attempts to tell people to suck eggs and live freely, why should we do as badly as you guys...it would be like taking lessons in life from the Grim Reaper?  Everybody on this thread has already stated it has been very frustrating, but it would be more frustrating if it were accompanied by a hundred thousand deaths.  And yet it will be all over by next week ! So there is no point to these continual gripes.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Robert Dyson
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10 minutes ago, Robert Dyson said:

Wo are these "many" you keep mentioning?   I guess for an outsider you might not understand that some of these states are far bigger than the United Kingdom.  My own electorate is a quarter of the size of England.  There is "lockdown", and there is "lockdown"....it has really not been that bad,  you can stay out all day and there are no police because people are pretty well-behaved and the population is quite spread out. Personal responsbility.

I cannot really see the point of these continual attempts to tell people to suck eggs and live freely, why should we do as badly as you guys...it would be like taking lessons in life from the Grim Reaper?  Everybody on this thread has already stated it has been very frustrating, but it would be more frustrating if it were accompanied by a hundred thousand deaths.  And yet it will be all over by next week ! So there is no point to these continual gripes.

 

 

 

 

I would never compare where I live to other parts of Australia or the UK with regard to Covid and lockdowns.  Here, it has been a breeze.  We've been out of lockdown for over a year.  Do I feel restricted?  No I don't.  OH and I have been to Sydney and Melbourne in the  last year.  We have just returned from South Australia - staying with friends who moved from NSW.  Am I chomping at the bit to go overseas? No I am not.  I am bored stiff listening/reading about Covid.  It won't be long until most sensible people here have been jabbed then all those who are raring to go overseas and people needing to come here can do so. 

Spoke to younger son who lives in New York last night.  He reckons most of those going on about Australia and lockdown have just discovered where Australia actually is on the world map.  🤣

Good health everyone and take it easy.  Be nice to each other.  😀

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3 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

Many would argue that being stuck in your own state and not being allowed to travel to another state let alone overseas is not living freely.  It’s living safely perhaps but not free.  The biggest issue is in Melbourne and despite those that think it’s all ok,  for many it’s definitely not.  

My cousin and family in Melbourne have had it up to here with Covid and lockdowns.  They have more or less been trapped for a good long while.  

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8 minutes ago, Toots said:

My cousin and family in Melbourne have had it up to here with Covid and lockdowns.  They have more or less been trapped for a good long while.  

I have friends and family in Melbourne and they are the same.  They’ve told me many people there feel the same.  They say people are really down about it all.  They do all feel trapped like you say as they are. I think the curfew has been moved to a later time now but for sometime it was 8pm.  I was talking to someone who works late, often getting home about 8pm and they couldn’t even walk their dog around a quiet park when they got home for fear of getting caught.  One thing that shocked me was the recent two weeks in the naughty corner for all tradies.   A small group misbehaved and all the tradies in Melbourne was told they weren’t allowed to work for two weeks.  How anyone can think that is ok is beyond me.  Those people have bills to pay and families to care for.  A huge majority didn’t do anything wrong.  That power happy dictatorship is dangerous and wrong.  Lots of people there are now starting to ignore the rules, they’ve simply had enough.  

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

   A small group misbehaved and all the tradies in Melbourne was told they weren’t allowed to work for two weeks.  How anyone can think that is ok is beyond me.  Those people have bills to pay and families to care for.  A huge majority didn’t do anything wrong.  That power happy dictatorship is dangerous and wrong.  Lots of people there are now starting to ignore the rules, they’ve simply had enough.  

You misunderstand what this was about then.

It was a nutters anti-vax protest of people, and the usual hangers on of imported ne'er do wells, who vandalised their own union's headquarters, assaulted women workers, police and anybody going into the building, and ended up taking over their own city Shrine of Remembrance and pissing on it.   

If these people were refusing to allow workplaces to re-open safely because they were refusing to take one vaccine, then what would you have suggested as a resolution?  Where was their own recognisation that they had "bills to pay and families to care for" ?  They willingly put theirs and everybody else's family second, kept the workplaces shutdown, and cost the taxpayer a fortune in more relief payments.   

To prevent that is a "power happy dictatorship"?   Do you think the Government and Unions wanted to do that...when they were the very people trying to open up the workplaces early but with a responsbility to try and keep "everyone" safe? 

"they've simply had enough" ..enough of this apologist agitating bullshit from afar please, you're just whinging for no reason now. 🙂

 

Edited by Robert Dyson
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14 hours ago, simmo said:

Not so sure about that TBH

I think the vast majority of people think Australia did the right thing during 2020.   In fact you may recall, most of the rest of the world was envious of Australia being virtually Covid-free.  

That mood has changed in 2021, but only because of Delta (though the slow vaccine rollout didn't help).  If Delta hadn't happened, Australia and New Zealand would probably still be Covid-free, because the old lockdown methods would still be working.  NSW and Victoria would be living a virtually normal life, just like WA is now, and we'd all be flying around having holidays within our bubble.  The only unhappy people would be those who want/need to travel internationally, and you only have to look at the mood in WA to see that they're in the minority.  

People have short memories. 

 

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Chairman Dan got 2 fines for being outside without mask on this week. $400 is nothing to him but amusing after all his speeches ordering people to wear masks outside.

There was a story last night on A Current Affair of people in NSW getting pulled over and fined for not wearing a mask in their own car.

Some of the rules are ridiculous, a young couple both got fined ($1000) for being in their car driving without masks on. But when they are at home inside they don't need a mask

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23 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

I have friends and family in Melbourne and they are the same.  ... One thing that shocked me was the recent two weeks in the naughty corner for all tradies.   A small group misbehaved and all the tradies in Melbourne was told they weren’t allowed to work for two weeks.  How anyone can think that is ok is beyond me.  Those people have bills to pay and families to care for.  A huge majority didn’t do anything wrong.  That power happy dictatorship is dangerous and wrong.  Lots of people there are now starting to ignore the rules, they’ve simply had enough.  

It's interesting how different people in the same city can see things differently.    

It wasn't a "small group" that misbehaved.  The government did inspections of building sites and found that most were not following Covid-safe practices.  The biggest problem was that construction sites aren't supposed to have lunch rooms, because they bring workers together in close proximity.  In a protest against losing their lunch rooms, a protest was staged in the city where workers all parked their chairs across a main road to have their lunch.  

Most Melburnians regarded the workers as a bunch of snowflakes, because hospitals closed their lunch rooms long ago, and nurses and doctors have to go outdoors to the car park or nearest park, and they have never complained because they understand it's good science.

 The protests continued and were getting out of control, and that's when the government said, "right, if you're not going to toe the line, you can all go home."  There is a welfare benefit available to those who can't work due to the shutdown. 

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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25 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

It's interesting how different people in the same city can see things differently.    

It wasn't a "small group" that misbehaved.  The government did inspections of building sites and found that most were not following Covid-safe practices.  The biggest problem was that construction sites aren't supposed to have lunch rooms, because they bring workers together in close proximity.  In a protest against losing their lunch rooms, a protest was staged in the city where workers all parked their chairs across a main road to have their lunch.  

Most Melburnians regarded the workers as a bunch of snowflakes, because hospitals closed their lunch rooms long ago, and nurses and doctors have to go outdoors to the car park or nearest park, and they have never complained because they understand it's good science.

 The protests continued and were getting out of control, and that's when the government said, "right, if you're not going to toe the line, you can all go home."  There is a welfare benefit available to those who can't work due to the shutdown. 

There have been quite a few covid breaches in Melbourne other than the construction one and maybe this is why they are suffering more than most States. I do believe anyone caught breaching the rules should NOT be entitled to any covid related welfare benefit.

QLD, like WA and Tas have done relatively well throughout the whole pandemic with very little school missed and only a handful of lock downs issued. Yesterday QLD reduced safety measures again due to no community cases for a fair few days and now face masks dont have to be worn all the time, numbers have increased for social gatherings etc etc

 Cal x

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11 hours ago, simmo said:

Anyway the main question is: is Australia waiting for cased to go down significantly before it eases lockdown? 

Australia isn't in lockdown.  And those parts of Australia that are still in lockdown are waiting for rates of vaccination to increase before easing lockdowns.

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2 minutes ago, calNgary said:

There have been quite a few covid breaches in Melbourne other than the construction one and maybe this is why they are suffering more than most States. I do believe anyone caught breaching the rules should NOT be entitled to any covid related welfare benefit.

QLD, like WA and Tas have done relatively well throughout the whole pandemic with very little school missed and only a handful of lock downs issued. Yesterday QLD reduced safety measures again due to no community cases for a fair few days and now face masks dont have to be worn all the time, numbers have increased for social gatherings etc etc

 Cal x

SA has also weathered the pandemic well with little in the way of lockdowns and school missed / home schooling.  And I believe the NT is in a similar position.

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Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self control to be understanding and forgiving.

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I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone has already raised the point, but I don't believe it would have been possible for the UK to replicate Australia's response.

The Australian government effectively shut its borders to its own citizens by making international arrivals so scarce that the cost of flights shot up to exorbitant levels way out of reach of the average person. It could do so because there is wide public support for the idea of fortress Australia. The average Australian is a parochial soul.

There is no way that the UK government could have done such a thing. It simply would not have been politically possible to prevent 120,000 UK citizens (scaled up from the 40,000 Aussie citizens) from returning to their homes, stranded on the Spanish Costas. How do I know? Because if it was possible, it would have been done. It wasn't, so they didn't.

Similarly with the enormous powers of the Australian states. Some Victorians have been forbidden to enter their home state from NSW during the pandemic. Again, it is unthinkable that Scots would have been prevented from returning home from England, or that police patrols and helicopters would have been set up on the Tweed and Anglo-Scottish border, in the way that the Murray River and NSW/Victoria borders were patrolled last year.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

Many would argue that being stuck in your own state and not being allowed to travel to another state let alone overseas is not living freely.  It’s living safely perhaps but not free.  The biggest issue is in Melbourne and despite those that think it’s all ok,  for many it’s definitely not.  

Most of us who live here, I am in Qld, know that the vaccine roll out was incompetent, but it has increased significantly. I was fully vaccinated by mid June with AZ. Yes we have been restricted by border lockdown, but in reality only NSW and Victoria have really suffered, the rest of us are doing OK. As a family member in Sydney has only just managed to stay afloat in this last lockdown I am not in the least unsympathetic, times have been very tough for many small businesses. I’m glad I haven’t had the responsibility of the hard decisions that have had to be taken, as observers we can all be wise in hindsight.

However my daughter and husband came from Sydney for Christmas, she also came for a week in February, and we went to Sydney, Jarvis Bay, Jindabyne and Thredbo in March, pre lockdown. 
We are now on holiday in the Whitsundays 🏝( see my photos on post a random photo )to see how tough it is being stuck in qld of where to go for a holiday.  The island is very full. The SA schools are on holiday and also enjoying themselves here. 

We aren’t stupid we take care, we accept wearing a mask and checking in with the QR code in return with a pretty good life free of most restrictions. We have been to the theatre, and the amazing art exhibition of European masters on loan from The Metropolitan Museum of Art New York in Brisbane

Yes we all probably look forward to the borders totally re opening, but lots of us have coped in the meantime and appreciate the very little disruption to our lives so far, in comparison to how restrictive life has been for our son and grandsons in UK for many many months of lockdown and home schooling.

 

 

Edited by ramot
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These are the forgotten victims of the closed borders - families who own homes or are paying rent in Queensland but are not allowed in.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/karrina-kemp-pays-585-rent-for-her-home-but-she-s-living-in-a-tent-at-the-qld-border-20210930-p58w3m.html

Karrina Kemp never expected to be living in a tent with three children, but that’s all she can afford while waiting to be allowed to cross the Queensland border.

Ms Kemp is one of more than 11,000 Queenslanders stranded in NSW or Victoria while waiting for border passes or exemptions to be allowed across the border. She is also one of several people who told The Sun-Herald they were sleeping in a tent or car as a result, mostly in NSW border towns and some in Victoria.

Ms Kemp, 43, is still paying $585 a week rent for her home in Bundaberg, and it costs an additional $360 a week to stay in the tent park in Ballina in northern NSW, where she has spent the past three weeks.

She said her daughter, 12, and son, 13, were “beyond frustrated and getting upset” about living in the tent and not being able to go home. Her youngest child, 18 months, is enjoying the outdoor exploration but having meltdowns when it rains, or it is time to come inside.

 

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2 hours ago, calNgary said:

There have been quite a few covid breaches in Melbourne other than the construction one and maybe this is why they are suffering more than most States. I do believe anyone caught breaching the rules should NOT be entitled to any covid related welfare benefit.

Very true, an epidemiologist was saying that yesterday.   Because people are getting sick of lockdowns, there was an element of "bugger it" on the weekend of the AFL cup final and there were a lot of illegal parties for the game.   The following week, more than ONE THIRD of the reported cases arose from those parties.

Construction was identified as a particular risk because so many of the workers are travelling on public transport across town, a lot of them are exactly the same young blokes that are breaking the rules and partying, and then on top of that, the building sites were being slack about Covid rules. 

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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5 minutes ago, DIG85 said:

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone has already raised the point, but I don't believe it would have been possible for the UK to replicate Australia's response.

The Australian government effectively shut its borders to its own citizens by making international arrivals so scarce that the cost of flights shot up to exorbitant levels way out of reach of the average person. It could do so because there is wide public support for the idea of fortress Australia. The average Australian is a parochial soul.

There is no way that the UK government could have done such a thing. It simply would not have been politically possible to prevent 120,000 UK citizens (scaled up from the 40,000 Aussie citizens) from returning to their homes, stranded on the Spanish Costas. How do I know? Because if it was possible, it would have been done. It wasn't, so they didn't.

Similarly with the enormous powers of the Australian states. Some Victorians have been forbidden to enter their home state from NSW during the pandemic. Again, it is unthinkable that Scots would have been prevented from returning home from England, or that police patrols and helicopters would have been set up on the Tweed and Anglo-Scottish border, in the way that the Murray River and NSW/Victoria borders were patrolled last year.

I think Australians were given until May 2020 to return, non-residents were excluded from March?  There was ample time for the UK to put measures into place and give people months to return, or better still, just stay put.   My parents locked down in the UK on March 1st 2020, weeks before the UK government did.   

The UK Government has enormous power under a public health emergency...they can basically do anything they like.  Their problem was incompetence and a lack of clarity or direction, then blind panic when it was too late.

The science was clear what was going to happen, but Johnson chose to prioritise the economy over safety.  Cheltenham festival, football supporters coming and going all over Europe, causing super spreader events....the infamous Liverpool match bringing in a highly infected Spanish support from Madrid which made Liverpool the European hotspot 2 weeks later.  Complete negligence.

There was no initial support for fortress Australia because nobody knew that's what it was going to be.....it was watching Bergamo in Italy and then watching the UK do nothing to prepare themselves that strengthened feelings.  I remember having to get temperatures taken to enter a coffee shop here, then watching incredulous reporters at Heathrow arrivals saying there are thousands of people flowing in and out and they do not even have a temperature sensor in the airport...they have no idea what is going on because they are in complete denial...so late lockdowns when it was already too late, massive death rate, and sending infected old people from hospital to a care home to wipe out the rest of them.  Protect the NHS by killing the elderly ?  Go on your doorstep and give them a clap.

I was just listening to Miriam Margolyes on R5 saying Johnson should be charged with murder, because he missed 5 Cobra meetings whilst prioritising his latest divorce settlement...he could not have cared less and was asleep at the wheel. 

When they did finally bring a form of quarantine, it was nothing of the sort, allowing to people to breeze out of the airport having given the name of Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck and a false address.  It was no surprise when the first covid variant was discovered it came from the UK, they'd turned themselves into a petri dish and baked it themselves through negligence.

What we're seeing is an airbrushing and a pretence that there was nothing more they could have done.   That is untrue, and the long-awaited public enquiry will condemn some of these people forever.  They've actually tarnished the entire planet along with the other shithouse responses like Trump's USA response, Brazil, and India...making sure this virus was encouraged to mutate and can now never be eradicated.

 

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4 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

  A small group misbehaved and all the tradies in Melbourne was told they weren’t allowed to work for two weeks.  How anyone can think that is ok is beyond me.  

It wasn't "a small group".  There was widespread flouting of workplace protocols across the construction sector - protocols which were often far less rigorous than those  required by workers in other industries. The construction sector was warned of the consequences of not abiding by safe working rules - and continued to ignore them.  

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2 hours ago, DIG85 said:

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if someone has already raised the point, but I don't believe it would have been possible for the UK to replicate Australia's response.

The Australian government effectively shut its borders to its own citizens by making international arrivals so scarce that the cost of flights shot up to exorbitant levels way out of reach of the average person. It could do so because there is wide public support for the idea of fortress Australia. The average Australian is a parochial soul.

There is no way that the UK government could have done such a thing. It simply would not have been politically possible to prevent 120,000 UK citizens (scaled up from the 40,000 Aussie citizens) from returning to their homes, stranded on the Spanish Costas. How do I know? Because if it was possible, it would have been done. It wasn't, so they didn't.

Similarly with the enormous powers of the Australian states. Some Victorians have been forbidden to enter their home state from NSW during the pandemic. Again, it is unthinkable that Scots would have been prevented from returning home from England, or that police patrols and helicopters would have been set up on the Tweed and Anglo-Scottish border, in the way that the Murray River and NSW/Victoria borders were patrolled last year.

Of course they could have if they wanted to. Like happened here you give people a month to get back if they want to before closing the border.

The UK has done similar when announcing quarantine would be required for people returning from Spain after a notice period leading to a rush home by holiday makers.

Of course the border between England and Scotland could be closed. It was unthinkable here too until it was done.

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1 hour ago, Skani said:

It wasn't "a small group".  There was widespread flouting of workplace protocols across the construction sector - protocols which were often far less rigorous than those  required by workers in other industries. The construction sector was warned of the consequences of not abiding by safe working rules - and continued to ignore them.  

Yes. I don't have much sympathy for the tradies. A lot of them flout the law and act like thugs.

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