newjez Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 26 minutes ago, Toots said: What do they have to whinge about? Fancy complaining about not receiving the pension. Give the pension to all those that really need it. I hear about people always on the lookout for what they can get from the government when they really have no need for handouts and some people seem to know how to work the system and get away with it. I expect the UK will have to follow this. People will moan, but at the end of the day there is only so much money left after covid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Marisawright said: Yes, that's the stupid thing. I think it's wrong, personally. Australia has a lot of old people struggling on the pension while living in a big old house worth two or three million dollars. They won't sell and move into a smaller place or a retirement village, because "I'll lose my pension!". The fact that they'd have over a million dollars to live on instead, cuts no ice - that's money they're determined to pass on to their children, and besides, "I'm entitled to the pension!" Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with older people who want to hang onto the family home because it's their home and they can't bear to leave it. I do have a problem with older people wanting to hang onto the family home just because it lets them greedily claim a welfare benefit they don't really need. (For clarity, unlike the UK, Australians don't pay into a pension fund like National Insurance. Pensions are a benefit, like unemployment benefit). It has often been suggested that your residence shouldn't be 100% exempt from the assets test. There could be a ceiling, e.g. $1 million. But it's politically too sensitive, so it won't happen. I really don't think the government have a national insurance shoe box put aside for each of us. That money has long gone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Marisawright said: has often been suggested that your residence shouldn't be 100% exempt from the assets test. There could be a ceiling, e.g. $1 million. But it's politically too sensitive, so it won't happen Post covid, I think we will be shocked at the number of politically sensitive changes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Paul1Perth said: I don't have a problem with that. If an old person likes where they live, has friends and a support group close by, likes the area and is capable of living on their own then let them get the pension. The house, specially if you're in Sydney or Melbourne, would not have been worth millions when you bought it, just luck has made it worth that now. Neither have I, IF the reason they're staying put is because they love their house and they can manage it on their own. But in Sydney, I've seen plenty of old dears who can't get up the stairs any more, they've had to give up the car and the nearest bus stop is a long way away - and there are nice units and townhouses nearby where they could live far more comfortably and still be near friends and family. But they won't move because "I'll lose my pension." I know one 85-year-old whose front garden is on a steep slope. He falls regularly walking through it. He can't afford to put a rail on the garden path because "he's only got the pension to live on". The house is probably worth about $4 million (terrace in a swanky part of Paddington). Edited March 23, 2021 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 3 hours ago, Toots said: What do they have to whinge about? Fancy complaining about not receiving the pension. Give the pension to all those that really need it. I hear about people always on the lookout for what they can get from the government when they really have no need for handouts and some people seem to know how to work the system and get away with it. Agreed Toots, they cop it from everyone when they complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 5 hours ago, newjez said: I expect the UK will have to follow this. People will moan, but at the end of the day there is only so much money left after covid. ................. but in the UK people have paid their National Insurance Contribution which goes towards the age pension. I suppose the tax we pay here goes towards the age pension for people who need it but most people who work here pay into a super fund hoping that will make retirement comfortable. Why old people cling onto a large expensive house (like the man in Paddington Marissa mentioned) so they can receive the pension when they could downsize is beyond me. With the spare cash they could live very comfortably without the pension. Perhaps though they hang onto the large house to leave to their children when they die. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 hours ago, newjez said: I really don't think the government have a national insurance shoe box put aside for each of us. That money has long gone. Yes, of course it has. Historically, governments have been too scared to increase it to where it needs to be, so it doesn't go close to paying for pensions. Nonetheless, British people have grown up being told they are "paying into" their pension through their NI contributions,so they're entitled to feel entitled, if you know what I mean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramot Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 8 hours ago, Marisawright said: Yes, that's the stupid thing. I think it's wrong, personally. Australia has a lot of old people struggling on the pension while living in a big old house worth two or three million dollars. They won't sell and move into a smaller place or a retirement village, because "I'll lose my pension!". The fact that they'd have over a million dollars to live on instead, cuts no ice - that's money they're determined to pass on to their children, and besides, "I'm entitled to the pension!" Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with older people who want to hang onto the family home because it's their home and they can't bear to leave it. I do have a problem with older people wanting to hang onto the family home just because it lets them greedily claim a welfare benefit they don't really need. (For clarity, unlike the UK, Australians don't pay into a pension fund like National Insurance. Pensions are a benefit, like unemployment benefit). It has often been suggested that your residence shouldn't be 100% exempt from the assets test. There could be a ceiling, e.g. $1 million. But it's politically too sensitive, so it won't happen. The way prices are going here Marisa, there won’t be many properties under a million. Ok slight exaggeration, but even fairly small 3 bedroom 2 bathroom houses are selling here on the Sunshine Coast the day they go on the market for stupid money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Imagine trying to force elderly people out of their homes that they lived in for 50 years. No government would be stupid enough to raise that as a prospect at election time. Never heard anything so mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 45 minutes ago, Parley said: Imagine trying to force elderly people out of their homes that they lived in for 50 years. No government would be stupid enough to raise that as a prospect at election time. Never heard anything so mean. No one is talking about forcing people out of their homes. There's already a range of reverse mortgages and if they did bring in a rule like that, I'm sure more would be developed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Marisawright said: No one is talking about forcing people out of their homes. There's already a range of reverse mortgages and if they did bring in a rule like that, I'm sure more would be developed. There is nothing wrong with the current system. The pensioner doesn't benefit the fact their house is in a fancy suburb. When they die it will be sold in due course. Edited March 23, 2021 by Parley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstWorldProblems Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Parley said: There is nothing wrong with the current system. The pensioner doesn't benefit the fact their house is in a fancy suburb. When they die it will be sold in due course. There is something wrong with the current system, and it's something that countries all over the world are struggling with. An ageing population. Current systems were established when people were living on average for 5-10 years past retirement age. The pension, which is funded through taxation, was never expecting to be providing for people for 2 or 3 times that. It's an immense burden to place upon tax payers, who not unreasonably might ask why a person isn't down-sizing their property to part fund their own retirement? If we just heap more tax onto the working, they in turn can't prepare to self fund their own retirement (in full or on part) and the problem just gets worse and worse and worse with every decade that passes. It's not a sustainable model. Australian Life Expectancy (source treasury.gov.au) Edited March 23, 2021 by FirstWorldProblems 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s713 Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Yeah, it will give at some point, has to. The money isn't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 The government can afford to give money away willy nilly to all and sundry when it suits, as it has last year and this year. They will never claim they can not afford to pay the pension to homeowners so it will not change, and no government would take that platform to an election. Bill Shorten learned the folly of messing with retirees 2 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Parley said: They will never claim they can not afford to pay the pension to homeowners .... Bill Shorten learned the folly of messing with retirees 2 years ago. Exactly, that illustrates the problem perfectly. Very, very few pensioners would've been impacted by changing the franking credits system. Only those with several million dollars in shares would've seen any significant change in their income. The Liberals launched a misinformation campaign and caused a panic, and that was that. Edited March 23, 2021 by Marisawright 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s713 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Having worked in Aged Care in Australia, I can guarantee you there are big changes coming, it's question of when. But this isn't an Australia-only problem, the day will come pretty soon when, if you retire and have any personal fortune, you won't get state assistance. 100%. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 17 hours ago, Parley said: The government can afford to give money away willy nilly to all and sundry when it suits, as it has last year and this year. They will never claim they can not afford to pay the pension to homeowners so it will not change, and no government would take that platform to an election. Bill Shorten learned the folly of messing with retirees 2 years ago. The two parties either agree on policy, or they wait till after the election and then hope all the pensioners either die or forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstWorldProblems Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 5 hours ago, s713 said: Having worked in Aged Care in Australia, I can guarantee you there are big changes coming, it's question of when. But this isn't an Australia-only problem, the day will come pretty soon when, if you retire and have any personal fortune, you won't get state assistance. 100%. 100% agree. It will be phased in to lessen the shock and the push back. Much like the retirement age is gradually being raised. It's going to be a real blow to many and it will feel somewhat cruel when generations that went before didn't have to do this.....but if you look at it dispassionately, what other way is there? We can't go back in time and ask those people to pay more income tax to prepare for their pension that is more expensive than we expected it to be. Someone has to pay and contrary to Parley's assertion, government can't go on borrowing ever increasing amounts indefinitely to fund the running of the country....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chortlepuss Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 07/03/2021 at 22:51, Pendragon said: I left Cornwall to come to Australia firstly as no opportunity for my then 17 yo stepson and secondly for the experience. That was in 2007 with no intention to stay beyond gaining citizenship. But the situation changed, wife became ensconced and stepson stated his own family. I have two children and grandkids in Cornwall and whilst I return annually it is not so much that I miss them or my old friends, its Cornwall and UK that I miss. In nearly 14 years I have not made more than fleeting acquaintances. Now in my 60s and recently retired it is even harder. Not a day goes by that I don't feel deep regret. I spent nearly 50 years in UK and I have no intention of seeing my days out in Australia. I intend to leave my wife of 24 years and return to Cornwall in 2022 as not fair on either of us. Life is too short. I came over in 2007 too on a 457 visa intending to stay 2 years - the two drifted into four then came residency and citizenship just in case’ By then kids and husband established. I went back to work a couple of times and was even offered me old job back when my replacement left. I desperately miss Sussex but the UK in general (sister lives down your way Pendragon - so I can see how Cornwall would get stuck in your soul!). My age and sentiment is almost identical but I cannot leave my family - once borders open though, I will visit for long periods to get my hit. We still have a house in the UK - financially it doesn’t make sense to keep it but I dream of keeping it as a bolt hole instead of tenanted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 On 23/03/2021 at 22:32, FirstWorldProblems said: There is something wrong with the current system, and it's something that countries all over the world are struggling with. An ageing population. Current systems were established when people were living on average for 5-10 years past retirement age. The pension, which is funded through taxation, was never expecting to be providing for people for 2 or 3 times that. It's an immense burden to place upon tax payers, who not unreasonably might ask why a person isn't down-sizing their property to part fund their own retirement? If we just heap more tax onto the working, they in turn can't prepare to self fund their own retirement (in full or on part) and the problem just gets worse and worse and worse with every decade that passes. It's not a sustainable model. Australian Life Expectancy (source treasury.gov.au) Everyone knows that but what government is going to do anything about it? Too risky to increase taxes so they fiddle about with super contributions. You can guarantee if super contributions increase it has to affect pay rises, giving people less cash to spend. It could be a way to force working people to have enough assets to not get the pension. Another thing is new technology, automation, robotics, AI, is going to reduce the number of jobs, so even less people paying tax and paying into super. There is already talk about giving people a "living wage" for not working. Interesting for the generation at school now. My generation has been pretty lucky, my kids might be OK, they are 31 and 26, both working. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 On 24/03/2021 at 05:44, Parley said: The government can afford to give money away willy nilly to all and sundry when it suits, as it has last year and this year. They will never claim they can not afford to pay the pension to homeowners so it will not change, and no government would take that platform to an election. Bill Shorten learned the folly of messing with retirees 2 years ago. They can't afford it really Parley but it just had to be done. They just take on massive debt, print more money, knowing that down the track it won't be their problem when it comes to paying it back. Aus is in a better position than most, due to the natural resources we have, that other countries have to buy from us. The mining and Oil and Gas industries are bailing Aus out. Specially here in WA, covid hasn't been that bad at all, life continued like normal, income from mining companies has been fantastic, way better than predicted a few years ago. On a smaller scale it reminds me of my niece. When she was at uni on a grant she had a car, a phone, came out here on holiday and never stopped spending. Bought a pair of pink ugg boots for $150. When I asked how she did it and wasn't she worried she just said everybody does it Paul (meaning all the other students she was at uni with). All of them just had massive debt. She's never been able to get to grips with living within her means and she's in her mid 30's. I hate to think what the current generation owes on their credit cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud preston Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 9 hours ago, Paul1Perth said: They can't afford it really Parley but it just had to be done. They just take on massive debt, print more money, knowing that down the track it won't be their problem when it comes to paying it back. Aus is in a better position than most, due to the natural resources we have, that other countries have to buy from us. The mining and Oil and Gas industries are bailing Aus out. Specially here in WA, covid hasn't been that bad at all, life continued like normal, income from mining companies has been fantastic, way better than predicted a few years ago. On a smaller scale it reminds me of my niece. When she was at uni on a grant she had a car, a phone, came out here on holiday and never stopped spending. Bought a pair of pink ugg boots for $150. When I asked how she did it and wasn't she worried she just said everybody does it Paul (meaning all the other students she was at uni with). All of them just had massive debt. She's never been able to get to grips with living within her means and she's in her mid 30's. I hate to think what the current generation owes on their credit cards. “ The natural resources we have...... income from mining companies’ .....AKA - not giving a damn about the natural environment and depleting all we can. Australia could be a fantastic country but profit and ‘development’ with little consideration for natural resources leaves us in poor shape long term. I’m not talking money /economy - which seems to trump all conversations. We can’t keep thinking we can mine the hell out of everything, clear forests and think long term ‘ she’ll be right’ Sick of this short term, profit driven mindset that is so prevalent and getting shot down when not being enamoured with mining, new developments, more fast food outlets etc etc ... This has gone off topic but it grates me to see many people in such a beautiful country not giving a flying #*#+ about the very land on which we are privileged to live. Paul I’m not taking a hefty swipe at you .... just wish Aus could be a better player on the world stage and not the embarrassment that it has been of late. The inaction to genuinely attempt to cut carbon emissions is woeful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstWorldProblems Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 hour ago, proud preston said: “ The natural resources we have...... income from mining companies’ .....AKA - not giving a damn about the natural environment and depleting all we can. Australia could be a fantastic country but profit and ‘development’ with little consideration for natural resources leaves us in poor shape long term. I’m not talking money /economy - which seems to trump all conversations. We can’t keep thinking we can mine the hell out of everything, clear forests and think long term ‘ she’ll be right’ Sick of this short term, profit driven mindset that is so prevalent and getting shot down when not being enamoured with mining, new developments, more fast food outlets etc etc ... This has gone off topic but it grates me to see many people in such a beautiful country not giving a flying #*#+ about the very land on which we are privileged to live. Paul I’m not taking a hefty swipe at you .... just wish Aus could be a better player on the world stage and not the embarrassment that it has been of late. The inaction to genuinely attempt to cut carbon emissions is woeful. Well long term she'll be right - no doubt. We won't. We'll be gone. But the planet will recover once we are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul1Perth Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, proud preston said: “ The natural resources we have...... income from mining companies’ .....AKA - not giving a damn about the natural environment and depleting all we can. Australia could be a fantastic country but profit and ‘development’ with little consideration for natural resources leaves us in poor shape long term. I’m not talking money /economy - which seems to trump all conversations. We can’t keep thinking we can mine the hell out of everything, clear forests and think long term ‘ she’ll be right’ Sick of this short term, profit driven mindset that is so prevalent and getting shot down when not being enamoured with mining, new developments, more fast food outlets etc etc ... This has gone off topic but it grates me to see many people in such a beautiful country not giving a flying #*#+ about the very land on which we are privileged to live. Paul I’m not taking a hefty swipe at you .... just wish Aus could be a better player on the world stage and not the embarrassment that it has been of late. The inaction to genuinely attempt to cut carbon emissions is woeful. Same old story though PP, if the countries like China, India, Japan don't buy the resources from us they'll just get them from somewhere else. Brazil comes to mind, where they are cutting down large swathes of rainforest daily. I think of all the resource supplying countries Aus is one of the ones that care about it's own environment. Several large developments have been stopped because of environmental concerns, gas processing moved offshore on one WA project at considerable cost to the company, WA and loss of jobs. Australia IS a fantastic country but it's because we have natural resources that are in demand that it's a great place to live. Most of us wouldn't have the opportunity to be here if it wasn't for the jobs created by those mining and oil and gas companies. If it wasn't for the royalties and taxes they are paying all those developments up and down the coast, the parks, play areas for kids, free barbeques, council guys keeping everything tidy, the spare cash that's around so people can go out. None of that would exist and the ones that were lucky enough to be here would be living in wooden shacks. I've not known any forest clearing here, we went to Port Douglas and Cairns a few years back and the rainforest there is protected and fantastic. The cable car stanchions in the rainforest were dropped from helicopters, they wouldn't allow a road in for fear of damage. A hundred years ago maybe you were right, when the early goldminers etc were just getting started. Now the environmental studies and rules that have to be met stop a lot of projects going ahead. I think a lot of the "extinction rebellion" mob are a lot of nutjobs who need to get into the real world. They are scaring themselves and the younger generation to death. No wonder they have anxiety issues. When they've grown up a bit and look for jobs they'll realise that those companies they are dead against will be the ones they'll end up working for. Until you can get the likes of India and China to start cutting their emissions, seriously, the amount that Aus and even Europe can contribute is a raindrop in an ocean. Climate change has always happened since the world began, only take one massive volcanic eruption, something like Pompei and it would change the world climate overnight. Might not happen though. Stop worrying so much and enjoy. Edited March 31, 2021 by Paul1Perth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 On 30/03/2021 at 13:09, Paul1Perth said: They can't afford it really Parley but it just had to be done. They just take on massive debt, print more money, knowing that down the track it won't be their problem when it comes to paying it back. Who do you think "they" have to pay it back to? This is a video about how the money supply works for any country that issues a sovereign currency: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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