Is it a good move financially?

[TheBrettFamily]

Would love some advice on this...

My husband and I are seriously considering immigrating to Australia. We spent 8 weeks travelling up the East Coast from Sydney to Cairns in an old campervan in 2018 and fell in love with the place. We had a daughter at the beginning of 2020 and so it feels a bit like now or never to go before we have to start thinking about taking our daughter out of school etc.

As much as I love Australia, I do also love the UK and the life we have here especially with family being so close by. We do quite well financially at the moment, we have our own home plus a rental property, nice car and a good £1000+ spare every month to spend/save for holidays etc.

My question is, if we were to go to Australia for 3-4 years and then decide to come back to the UK,  are we making bad financial moves in going back and forth or would it not make much difference? Of course there are moving costs involved etc but it seems that you get so much more for your money in Australia - better paid job, bigger house etc. If we chose to come back after, will we effectively feel poor after? 
Has anyone had any experience of going back and forth and doing better off because of it?

Of course I am sure we are going to love it and want to stay, it’s just that I like to think long term and consider every eventuality.

Thanks for your help!

[FirstWorldProblems]

Tough question to answer.  Before I try let me say this, as the father of 3, aged 21, 16 and 12, I’d say that in my experience you can move your kids out of school with minimal risk to their education right up until they begin their GCSE’s.  Now this is a generalisation, and some people have found their kids struggled to settle, but in the main, from an academic impact point of view, you have years before you need to worry.  
 

The financial question is so hard to answer because it varies so much based on where you live, what you do for a living, what you typically spend your money on.  Again, speaking very generally, on the whole Australia has a much more expensive cost of living than the U.K.   But that doesn’t always hold true.  You’ll find it cheaper to live in Adelaide than London for example.  But compare Sydney to Banbury and you’ll need twice the budget for a home and 25% more for your groceries for example.  
 

if you work in healthcare, you could earn twice your U.K. salary.  A phenomenal difference and you’ll enjoy better working hours. But if you work in IT it will be much of a muchness.  If you are a corporate exec you’ll earn less in Australia and your work-life balance will be down the toilet   

If overseas travel is your passion, it’s going to cost a lot more in Australia than the U.K. But many other pastimes are more accessible and no more expensive.  

Some surprising things are far more expensive.  Mundane stuff like internet or car insurance are really expensive.  My mother in law just renewed her insurance for her little Hyundai i30 and it cost more than I pay for a Range Rover.  Despite her better driving record  

An added complication is that product costs are likely to start rising in the U.K. now as choice reduces and importation costs grow.  By how much?  No one yet knows. 
 

So the answer is “it depends”.  Which isn’t terribly helpful but is reality.  I’d suggest a bit of internet research. There are cost of living comparison websites that let you compare cities and give you a sense for the weekly grocery shop.  

 

Moving costs are really high. Depends on circumstances naturally, but people on here talk about it’s costing £20,000 and that’s not including stamp duty when you buy your home.  

Edited January 16, 2021 by FirstWorldProblems

[Tulip1]

2 hours ago, TheBrettFamily said:

Would love some advice on this...

My husband and I are seriously considering immigrating to Australia. We spent 8 weeks travelling up the East Coast from Sydney to Cairns in an old campervan in 2018 and fell in love with the place. We had a daughter at the beginning of 2020 and so it feels a bit like now or never to go before we have to start thinking about taking our daughter out of school etc.

As much as I love Australia, I do also love the UK and the life we have here especially with family being so close by. We do quite well financially at the moment, we have our own home plus a rental property, nice car and a good £1000+ spare every month to spend/save for holidays etc.

My question is, if we were to go to Australia for 3-4 years and then decide to come back to the UK,  are we making bad financial moves in going back and forth or would it not make much difference? Of course there are moving costs involved etc but it seems that you get so much more for your money in Australia - better paid job, bigger house etc. If we chose to come back after, will we effectively feel poor after? 
Has anyone had any experience of going back and forth and doing better off because of it?

Of course I am sure we are going to love it and want to stay, it’s just that I like to think long term and consider every eventuality.

Thanks for your help!

Silly question but I assume you know you actually can move to Australia?  There’s many people that say they’d like to/considering it when they have no chance of getting a visa so I’m just checking you’re confident on that front as otherwise everything else is irrelevant. 

[newjez]

2 hours ago, TheBrettFamily said:

Would love some advice on this...

My husband and I are seriously considering immigrating to Australia. We spent 8 weeks travelling up the East Coast from Sydney to Cairns in an old campervan in 2018 and fell in love with the place. We had a daughter at the beginning of 2020 and so it feels a bit like now or never to go before we have to start thinking about taking our daughter out of school etc.

As much as I love Australia, I do also love the UK and the life we have here especially with family being so close by. We do quite well financially at the moment, we have our own home plus a rental property, nice car and a good £1000+ spare every month to spend/save for holidays etc.

My question is, if we were to go to Australia for 3-4 years and then decide to come back to the UK,  are we making bad financial moves in going back and forth or would it not make much difference? Of course there are moving costs involved etc but it seems that you get so much more for your money in Australia - better paid job, bigger house etc. If we chose to come back after, will we effectively feel poor after? 
Has anyone had any experience of going back and forth and doing better off because of it?

Of course I am sure we are going to love it and want to stay, it’s just that I like to think long term and consider every eventuality.

Thanks for your help!

A lot of it will depend on luck and how much money you shift with you. If you sell your UK home and shift a lot of cash, there are a lot of variables such as house prices and exchange rates that will move for or against you. If you leave your ppor in the UK, and sell the rental you would be hedging your bets. I wouldn't want to rent in Australia for four years, but it could be the safest option if you are definitely planning on returning. It is really hard to make a rental 'home'.

 

[TheBrettFamily]

Thank you @FirstWorldProblems and @Tulip1. 

A little more information on us, my husband is 28 and is a senior hedge fund analyst in London, I am 31 and work in the music industry. We currently live on the South East London/Kent border and would be looking at either Sydney or Brisbane is Oz. 

[Tulip1]

34 minutes ago, TheBrettFamily said:

Thank you @FirstWorldProblems and @Tulip1. 

A little more information on us, my husband is 28 and is a senior hedge fund analyst in London, I am 31 and work in the music industry. We currently live on the South East London/Kent border and would be looking at either Sydney or Brisbane is Oz. 

The first thing you need to do is see if either of your occupations/professions are on the skills lists and if they are that you satisfy the criteria. They have tightened up a lot recently and getting a visa can be very difficult. If they’re not then you won’t be able to get a visa to move there.  I assume you have checked?  If you have then in answer to your questions - don’t worry about your daughter,  young children are very portable.  As for is it a bad financial move,  not necessarily.  Yes it will be costly but it may be worth that for the experience of living in another country for some years with all the new experiences and different culture to enjoy.  Our holidays cost us a lot and there’s nothing to show for them other than the pleasure they bring along with the experience and new things seen/learnt. Some would see the costs a waste, others would brush them away as money well spent on doing what they wanted to do/scratching that itch. The first thing you must do is find out if it’s possible to get a visa. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Tulip1

[Wanderer Returns]

4 hours ago, TheBrettFamily said:

Thank you @FirstWorldProblems and @Tulip1. 

A little more information on us, my husband is 28 and is a senior hedge fund analyst in London, I am 31 and work in the music industry. We currently live on the South East London/Kent border and would be looking at either Sydney or Brisbane is Oz. 

 

3 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

The first thing you need to do is see if either of your occupations/professions are on the skills lists and if they are that you satisfy the criteria. They have tightened up a lot recently and getting a visa can be very difficult. If they’re not then you won’t be able to get a visa to move there.  I assume you have checked?  If you have then in answer to your questions - don’t worry about your daughter,  young children are very portable.  As for is it a bad financial move,  not necessarily.  Yes it will be costly but it may be worth that for the experience of living in another country for some years with all the new experiences and different culture to enjoy.  Our holidays cost us a lot and there’s nothing to show for them other than the pleasure they bring along with the experience and new things seen/learnt. Some would see the costs a waste, others would brush them away as money well spent on doing what they wanted to do/scratching that itch. The first thing you must do is find out if it’s possible to get a visa. 

Totally agree with everything @Tulip1 has just said. And if you're only thinking of moving over for 3-4 years anyway, it's going to be a lot more trouble than it's worth.

Possible solution; your husband is young enough to get a working holiday visa (once everything returns to normal), and you on a tourist visa. Rent your place out in Kent for a year or two, while you have a ball over here. You'd get to enjoy the experience of living in another country, without any long-term damage being done to either your family life or finances.

[Guest AltyMatt]

5 hours ago, TheBrettFamily said:

Thank you @FirstWorldProblems and @Tulip1. 

A little more information on us, my husband is 28 and is a senior hedge fund analyst in London, I am 31 and work in the music industry. We currently live on the South East London/Kent border and would be looking at either Sydney or Brisbane is Oz. 

If your husband's employer has an Australian office then maybe he could try and get a transfer or secondment. Employer sponsorship would make the process considerably easier and they may contribute towards relocation expenses.

[ramot]

40 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

 

Totally agree with everything @Tulip1 has just said. And if you're only thinking of moving over for 3-4 years anyway, it's going to be a lot more trouble than it's worth.

Possible solution; your husband is young enough to get a working holiday visa (once everything returns to normal), and you on a tourist visa. Rent your place out in Kent for a year or two, while you have a ball over here. You'd get to enjoy the experience of living in another country, without any long-term damage being done to either your family life or finances.

They have a child, not eligible for WHV unless visa conditions have changed 

[bolus]

"you get so much more for your money in Australia - better paid job, bigger house etc" 

Sorry, I'm laughing out loud at that 

Aus is expensive! Don't get me wrong, it's wonderful and has a much better society than the UK, but its days of being cheap are long gone.

Regarding moving - there's no right answer. I have friends (from both Aus and UK) who sold everything, set up in the other country, then years later both the FX rates and house prices had moved in the right direction for them and they returned seriously LOADED!. 

On the flip side, I know of other people who did the same and both FX and house prices moved in the wrong direction and they ended their days in a flat in an area you really don't want to live in. 

I guess the other dangerous thing is if you sell up you'll be seriously cash rich for a while, so will have to make sure you don't blow it. 

The safest approach is to rent your current place out, move, enjoy it, and if you want to return to the UK you have the option.

In short, there are many great reasons to move to Aus, but you don't move here to get rich! 

Edited January 17, 2021 by bolus

[Wanderer Returns]

57 minutes ago, ramot said:

They have a child, not eligible for WHV unless visa conditions have changed 

Oh, that was just a minor detail I'd overlooked!  

[Wanderer Returns]

1 hour ago, AltyMatt said:

If your husband's employer has an Australian office then maybe he could try and get a transfer or secondment. Employer sponsorship would make the process considerably easier and they may contribute towards relocation expenses.

I have a friend who works for Credit Suisse and she got transferred from their Singapore to Sydney office about 10 years ago, although I think employer-sponsored visas are generally harder to obtain these days - unless like Liam Neeson you have a very special skill-set!

[DrDougster]

It's all swings and round-a-bouts. Some things are better value, some more expensive, some jobs pay better, some worse. Land, for example Queensland is three times the size of France, is gonna generally be cheaper but Kangaroo Point is more expensive than Moss Side. (I've not actually checked but you get my point!)

You're likely to be able to invest earnings at a higher interest rate here if you are saving for the future - supers have been pushing 7-8% over the last five years or so in Australia.

I saw a cauliflower at $11 up at Sunshine one weekend last summer and $3 a cucumber is not uncommon. Fresh fruit and veg varies massively with seasons, far more so than in UK. Beef quality is superb here and most butchers carry Wagyu as a norm. High street butchers are a dying trade in UK and something that I really appreciate here. The food is more continental perhaps in that it is often more expensive but higher quality.

Coffee in Aus is just superb and from a quality of life point of view, texting our almond flat white and long black order to an independent barrista on our five minute drive to work is priceless.

Earnings are occupation dependent. I earn probably about 2.5x UK salary for the same job. Working conditions for us are better than they were in NHS. Much better. Our rent is steep but we live in the kind of house you just wouldn't rent in UK.

I think life here is much better than in the UK and even more so in the current world situation. For children Aus is fabulous - the expression always sounds like you're describing something in a greenhouse but our daughter is thriving here.

Do it!

[Marisawright]

14 hours ago, TheBrettFamily said:

My husband and I are seriously considering immigrating to Australia. ...

As much as I love Australia, I do also love the UK and the life we have here especially with family being so close by. We do quite well financially at the moment, we have our own home plus a rental property, nice car and a good £1000+ spare every month to spend/save for holidays etc.

My question is, if we were to go to Australia for 3-4 years and then decide to come back to the UK,  are we making bad financial moves in going back and forth or would it not make much difference?

It will make a massive difference. 

If one of you is able to find an employer to sponsor you and pay your relocation expenses, it woujld be a worthwhile adventure.    However, if you go for a visa in your own right and have to pay your own way, the cost to move your whole family to Australia will be at least £30,000.  Then you'll have the same bill when you're ready to go home.  If that sounds like a lot, try working it out for yourself:

• Visa fees;
• Air fares (if you have a pet, their air fare will be higher than yours);
• Shipping all your belongings OR buying an entire replacement household of furniture, whitegoods, kitchen appliances, pots, pans etc (in Australia, houses are rented unfurnished so you'll need everything) - or a mixture of the two;
• 4 weeks in holiday accommodation while you look for a home;
• Several weeks with no income (time off to prepare for the move, then an unknown period settling in and looking for work when you arrive);
• Insurances
• ......plus lots of other small expenses you haven't thought about

If you're moving permanently, all that cost is worth it (assuming Australia is where you want to be).  It's painful at the time, but you forget!  However, there is no way you could hope to recoup those costs in a few years.  

Edited January 17, 2021 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

One more point, which I certainly hope is not relevant, but I have to mention it.

We often see people asking about "trying it out" for a few years.   Often, the reason is that one partner is super-keen to move to Australia and the other is not sure about giving up a good life in the UK. So the keen partner proposes a compromise - "let's try it for a few years".  

If that's you, please think very carefully.  Migration is stressful even if you are both keen as mustard.   To attempt it otherwise is asking for trouble.  You mention family - the most successful migrants are people who aren't that close to family, and don't see them all that often even when they're in the UK.   If one of you is close to and/or relies on family for support, their absence will leave a huge hole in your life.

There's also the risk of what happens at the end of the "trial period"   Fast forward four years and the not-sure partner is ready to go home - but the keen partner is blissfully happy and says "no".   What happens then?   The not-sure partner has no leverage to force the keen partner to go home - because under the Hague Convention, the children can't leave Australia unless both partners give permission (because it has become their "usual country of residence").  

We've had several wives and a few husbands on these forums, who are stuck in Australia because their partner - who promised faithfully that  'we'll come home if you're not happy" - changes their mind and refuses to let the children leave. Divorce makes no difference to the law. 

[Marisawright]

13 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

if you work in healthcare, you could earn twice your U.K. salary.  A phenomenal difference and you’ll enjoy better working hours. But if you work in IT it will be much of a muchness.  If you are a corporate exec you’ll earn less in Australia and your work-life balance will be down the toilet   

Good summary and fits with my knowledge/experience.

[Marisawright]

Oops double post.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Marisawright

[Wanderer Returns]

5 hours ago, DrDougster said:

It's all swings and round-a-bouts. Some things are better value, some more expensive, some jobs pay better, some worse. Land, for example Queensland is three times the size of France, is gonna generally be cheaper but Kangaroo Point is more expensive than Moss Side. (I've not actually checked but you get my point!)

You're likely to be able to invest earnings at a higher interest rate here if you are saving for the future - supers have been pushing 7-8% over the last five years or so in Australia.

I saw a cauliflower at $11 up at Sunshine one weekend last summer and $3 a cucumber is not uncommon. Fresh fruit and veg varies massively with seasons, far more so than in UK. Beef quality is superb here and most butchers carry Wagyu as a norm. High street butchers are a dying trade in UK and something that I really appreciate here. The food is more continental perhaps in that it is often more expensive but higher quality.

Coffee in Aus is just superb and from a quality of life point of view, texting our almond flat white and long black order to an independent barrista on our five minute drive to work is priceless.

Earnings are occupation dependent. I earn probably about 2.5x UK salary for the same job. Working conditions for us are better than they were in NHS. Much better. Our rent is steep but we live in the kind of house you just wouldn't rent in UK.

I think life here is much better than in the UK and even more so in the current world situation. For children Aus is fabulous - the expression always sounds like you're describing something in a greenhouse but our daughter is thriving here.

Do it!

$11 cauliflowers are optional, but rent or mortgage payments aren't. We are in the unfortunate position of having to rent because our house sale in the UK has fallen through twice, and we're paying almost double what we we'd be paying in the UK for a similar property in a similar area. If you're also earning double your UK salary then that's fine, but as @FirstWorldProblems pointed out, most people aren't. I'm a teacher at the top of the main pay-scale and I earn a third more in Queensland than I would in the UK, which I'm very happy about - no whinging teacher here! - but it does mean I have to make my own coffee in the morning.

I totally agree that the quality of life is better than in the UK - and certainly at the moment - but when it comes down to the cost of living, it certainly isn't 'swings and roundabouts'.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Wanderer Returns

[bolus]

6 hours ago, bolus said:

"you get so much more for your money in Australia - better paid job, bigger house etc" 

Sorry, I'm laughing out loud at that 

Aus is expensive! Don't get me wrong, it's wonderful and has a much better society than the UK, but its days of being cheap are long gone.

Regarding moving - there's no right answer. I have friends (from both Aus and UK) who sold everything, set up in the other country, then years later both the FX rates and house prices had moved in the right direction for them and they returned seriously LOADED!. 

On the flip side, I know of other people who did the same and both FX and house prices moved in the wrong direction and they ended their days in a flat in an area you really don't want to live in. 

I guess the other dangerous thing is if you sell up you'll be seriously cash rich for a while, so will have to make sure you don't blow it. 

The safest approach is to rent your current place out, move, enjoy it, and if you want to return to the UK you have the option.

In short, there are many great reasons to move to Aus, but you don't move here to get rich! 

One last thing! I don't want to discourage you in any way, but taking a young child away from your family and friends (aka your support network) is tough! Don't underestimate how much assistance F&F give you, and babysitters over here are hard to find and expensive. 

[DrDougster]

12 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

$11 cauliflowers are optional, but rent or mortgage payments aren't. We are in the unfortunate position of having to rent because our house sale in the UK has fallen through twice, and we're paying almost double what we we'd be paying in the UK for a similar property in a similar area. If you're also earning double your UK salary then that's fine, but as @FirstWorldProblems pointed out, most people aren't. I'm a teacher at the top of the main pay-scale and I earn a third more in Queensland than I would in the UK, which I'm very happy about - no whinging teacher here! - but it does mean I have to make my own coffee in the morning.

I totally agree that the quality of life is better than in the UK - and certainly at the moment - but when it comes down to the cost of living, it certainly isn't 'swings and roundabouts'.

Yeah, I think we are in a very fortunate position where we often don't notice how much things cost. However, I do notice how well kept all the parks and green areas are, how spotless the public transport is and how pleasant supermarket cashiers and other people you casually meet are. I think you can see where your tax dollars go a bit more easily in Brisbane than you can in London or Nottingham.

I remember when I lived in New Hampshire there was an all you can eat for $5 at a Pizza Hut fairly close to the co-op where I bought fruit and veg where a single red capsicum was also $5. Easy to see where obesity comes from in this kind of economics and it's often obvious here too. Eating out is pricey in Australia.

Our babysitter/nanny is $25/hr. Nursery/kindy is $640 a week.

[Wanderer Returns]

11 hours ago, DrDougster said:

However, I do notice how well kept all the parks and green areas are, how spotless the public transport is and how pleasant supermarket cashiers and other people you casually meet are. I think you can see where your tax dollars go a bit more easily in Brisbane than you can in London or Nottingham.

I totally agree, not to mention there's virtually no litter or mindless graffiti - how nice is it here 

[ramot]

11 hours ago, DrDougster said:

Yeah, I think we are in a very fortunate position where we often don't notice how much things cost. However, I do notice how well kept all the parks and green areas are, how spotless the public transport is and how pleasant supermarket cashiers and other people you casually meet are. I think you can see where your tax dollars go a bit more easily in Brisbane than you can in London or Nottingham.

I remember when I lived in New Hampshire there was an all you can eat for $5 at a Pizza Hut fairly close to the co-op where I bought fruit and veg where a single red capsicum was also $5. Easy to see where obesity comes from in this kind of economics and it's often obvious here too. Eating out is pricey in Australia.

Our babysitter/nanny is $25/hr. Nursery/kindy is $640 a week.

Did you come from Nottingham? 

[DrDougster]

1 hour ago, ramot said:

Did you come from Nottingham? 

Yup

[bicek]

13 hours ago, DrDougster said:

Yeah, I think we are in a very fortunate position where we often don't notice how much things cost. However, I do notice how well kept all the parks and green areas are, how spotless the public transport is and how pleasant supermarket cashiers and other people you casually meet are. I think you can see where your tax dollars go a bit more easily in Brisbane than you can in London or Nottingham.

I remember when I lived in New Hampshire there was an all you can eat for $5 at a Pizza Hut fairly close to the co-op where I bought fruit and veg where a single red capsicum was also $5. Easy to see where obesity comes from in this kind of economics and it's often obvious here too. Eating out is pricey in Australia.

Our babysitter/nanny is $25/hr. Nursery/kindy is $640 a week.

Do you get any government subsidy for nursery/kindy? I thought they subsidised a % of that in oz?

[bicek]

On 16/01/2021 at 14:10, TheBrettFamily said:

Would love some advice on this...

My husband and I are seriously considering immigrating to Australia. We spent 8 weeks travelling up the East Coast from Sydney to Cairns in an old campervan in 2018 and fell in love with the place. We had a daughter at the beginning of 2020 and so it feels a bit like now or never to go before we have to start thinking about taking our daughter out of school etc.

As much as I love Australia, I do also love the UK and the life we have here especially with family being so close by. We do quite well financially at the moment, we have our own home plus a rental property, nice car and a good £1000+ spare every month to spend/save for holidays etc.

My question is, if we were to go to Australia for 3-4 years and then decide to come back to the UK,  are we making bad financial moves in going back and forth or would it not make much difference? Of course there are moving costs involved etc but it seems that you get so much more for your money in Australia - better paid job, bigger house etc. If we chose to come back after, will we effectively feel poor after? 
Has anyone had any experience of going back and forth and doing better off because of it?

Of course I am sure we are going to love it and want to stay, it’s just that I like to think long term and consider every eventuality.

Thanks for your help!

It's impossible to know how you would feel about living there 5 years down the line. Its a very personal thing, there is no algorithm for it. Ultimately for me I wouldn't make the decision based on finances, provided you can afford to actually do it in the first instance. We are looking at £20k for relocation (£25k including my husbands visa).

We are still in the UK and organising our relocation to Australia at the moment (I'm Australian, my husband is British but has just had his 309 visa approved). 

We are comfortable in the UK financially, but not happy. So ultimately money isn't the important factor for us. My kids will be 6, 3 and 0 when we relocate. We are keen to move whilst our eldest is still young. I moved A LOT when I was kid (4 countries) and it didn't bother me so much until after the age of about 12. Then it really impacted me in ways I am still coming to terms with as an adult. But that's just my personal experience (every kid will respond differently), but it is why I am very keen to not repeat this with my own kids.