Taxes On A House In The UK When Living In Oz

[Lauren & Luke]

*** Admin please move if I have posted under the wrong topic ***

Hi everyone,

Please can someone help me or point me in the right direction?

We spoke to a migration agent about visas and the visa he advised us to take was a visa that you can apply for permanent residency after 3 years (or it could have been 5 years! Sorry it was back in March we had the consultation!). The chances of us getting a permanent residency visa straight away is slim because of the number of points we have (Like many people we would be waiting for months even years).

We have had long discussions and my husband doesn't want to sell our house in the UK, move to Oz on a temp visa on the chance we would need to return at the end of its term and start the climb of the UK property ladder AGAIN. 

So, the question I am really asking is... if we were to rent our house out in the UK and rent in Oz until we got permanent residency (if), do we need to pay taxes in the UK and in Oz? I am sure I read we have too. If we do, does anyone know the % or what we need to pay? Do we have to pay the taxes monthly whilst we have a temporary visa in Oz or do we pay the tax if and when we sell the house if we get a permanent residency? 

Hopefully, if we were to get permanent residency we would then sell the house to use as a deposit for a property in Oz. 

Any help would be much appreciated and please if I have mentioned anything above which is incorrect, let me know

Thank you for reading and thank you for providing any information you may have. 

Lauren x

Edited December 4, 2020 by Lauren & Luke

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, Lauren & Luke said:

We have had long discussions and my husband doesn't want to sell our house in the UK, move to Oz on a temp visa on the chance we would need to return at the end of its term and start the climb of the UK property ladder AGAIN. 

So, the question I am really asking is... if we were to rent our house out in the UK and rent in Oz until we got permanent residency (if), do we need to pay taxes in the UK and in Oz?

I think your husband is being very sensible.  Although you may be able to apply for permanent residency after a certain number of years, it's only a possibility, not a certainty.  There are so many things that can go wrong in the meantime, including the chance that they'll change the rules and suddenly, you'll find you're not eligible. 

You will have to submit a tax return in both the UK and Australia but that doesn't mean you pay tax twice.  You'll pay whatever tax is due on your British income to the British taxman.  Then when you submit your tax return in Australia, you'll show your British income and also the British tax you've already paid.   The Australian taxman will work out how much they would normally charge, compare it to what you've already paid in UK tax, and you'll only be asked to pay the difference (if any).  

It's fiddly, and it would be worth using a tax agent to sort it all out for you, because they'll make sure you claim all your deductions and pay the minimum tax.  You need someone who's experienced in both British and Australian tax because they need to know how they dovetail.  @Alan Collett can help.  Of course, there's a fee, but you can claim that as an expense on your Australian tax, too.  

[rammygirl]

As a temporary visa holder in Aus you will not pay tax on your UK income, not sure how UK will treat you though.  You also need to be aware of capital gains issues should you sell up down the line.

If you want definitive answers check out ATO and HMRC websites or pay a dual qualified accountant to advise you and decipher the rules. 

[Marisawright]

Oops I had forgotten about being on a temp visa. Just goes to show how easy it is to get wrong and why you need a professional 

[Wanderer Returns]

It sounds like a sensible approach, although here are a few considerations to the contrary.

If you sold up in the UK and bought in Australia, your property here may well appreciate in value at a greater rate than your UK property. Historically this has been the case, but there's no guarantee in future of course.

Unless you have a very nice house, the rental income from your UK property is unlikely to cover your rent here. There would also be letting agents' fees and maintenance costs to consider, as well as CGT tax in the future because it would no longer have been your primary residence for a period of time.

Since the UK government stopped evictions, there are now thousands more tenants who have gone into arrears. Also, if you were unfortunate enough to get a bad tenant who damaged the property, sorting out repairs/refurbishment from the other side of the world is going to be painful.

We've had some issues selling our property in the UK and for a while we did consider letting it, but there's too much hassle involved (and we don't intend to return to the UK anytime soon).

[Tulip1]

9 minutes ago, Wanderer Returns said:

Unless you have a very nice house, the rental income from your UK property is unlikely to cover your rent here. There would also be letting agents' fees and maintenance costs to consider

That would depend on where your property is in the UK and where you move to in Oz.  Even a small three bed house in much of the south east of England would generate in excess of £1k a month in rental income. 
 

There is always a risk of getting a bad tenant and it’s so important to get landlords insurance although most don’t bother. A friend of mine owned a rental property a few years ago and had a poor tenant who didn’t pay for nearly a year. It took ages to get them evicted and the cost of going to court expensive (still refused to leave when eviction notice was served so court and bailiffs were needed) Most landlords never recover the costs of rent arrears but my friend had taken out landlord insurance which covered all legal fees. The insurance company pursued the tenants through the court system for payment of the arrears and they were ordered to pay it all back at an amount of £100pm (deemed what they could afford by the courts) They still pushed their luck and never set up the payment so it was back to court and the judge ordered an attachment of earnings for the payment.  So not only do they now have county court judgements against them but they have the embarrassment of their employer knowing they refused to pay a court order for unpaid rent and the attachment of earnings means their employer pays that £100pm out at source.  It will take many years for my friend to get it all back but she’s ok with that. The satisfaction of them not getting away with it is the most important thing. The cost of all she went through to get them out and get the arrears back cost thousands of pounds which is why most landlords don’t bother. It cost my friend nothing because of that insurance, they sorted everything out and covered all costs.  She sold the place after that though as it was mentally draining and upsetting and she just didn’t want to risk another bad tenant.

[Wanderer Returns]

2 hours ago, Tulip1 said:

There is always a risk of getting a bad tenant and it’s so important to get landlords insurance although most don’t bother. A friend of mine owned a rental property a few years ago and had a poor tenant who didn’t pay for nearly a year. It took ages to get them evicted and the cost of going to court expensive (still refused to leave when eviction notice was served so court and bailiffs were needed) Most landlords never recover the costs of rent arrears but my friend had taken out landlord insurance which covered all legal fees. The insurance company pursued the tenants through the court system for payment of the arrears and they were ordered to pay it all back at an amount of £100pm (deemed what they could afford by the courts) They still pushed their luck and never set up the payment so it was back to court and the judge ordered an attachment of earnings for the payment.  So not only do they now have county court judgements against them but they have the embarrassment of their employer knowing they refused to pay a court order for unpaid rent and the attachment of earnings means their employer pays that £100pm out at source.  It will take many years for my friend to get it all back but she’s ok with that. The satisfaction of them not getting away with it is the most important thing. The cost of all she went through to get them out and get the arrears back cost thousands of pounds which is why most landlords don’t bother. It cost my friend nothing because of that insurance, they sorted everything out and covered all costs.  She sold the place after that though as it was mentally draining and upsetting and she just didn’t want to risk another bad tenant.

Good grief, what a horror story! Hat's off to your friend for taking out landlord's insurance, and then having the resolve to follow through with all the legal proceedings. That's exactly the scenario I wanted to avoid - especially being on the other side of the world.

It makes you wonder where these people ended up? Who would ever rent a property to them again after that!

[ramot]

Well we have been renting out UK properties for over 20+ years, with no horror stories.  We have good agents which is a must. Rent has covered the mortgage, and properties have increased substantially in value. None were our principal residence so different rules might apply.

Please check but I’m not sure if you pay capital gains on UK home here? until you are PR. (for a year?)

On a temporary visa, again I think you have to pay considerably higher stamp duty to buy a house here. 

I cant help with the tax side, as we are retired with no Australian income, we have lived in Australia on a temporary long term retirement visa, and as we now have PR this is the first year we will pay tax in Australia. It has taken a bit to sort it out.

Please consult a tax advisor who is familiar with both UK and Australian tax.

Alan Collett a Migration Agent/tax adviser who posts on PIO has a good reputation and has helped many.

I very very rarely give any advice as I’m not at all qualified to give it. However on this rare occasion if it was us, we would not sell our UK home, if we were moving here on a temporary work visa. The thought of selling up, then the possibility of not getting PR, and returning to UK and not able to afford to buy the equivalent house again due to house price increases would be awful.

 

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Returns said:

It sounds like a sensible approach, although here are a few considerations to the contrary.

If you sold up in the UK and bought in Australia, your property here may well appreciate in value at a greater rate than your UK property.....

Unless you have a very nice house, the rental income from your UK property is unlikely to cover your rent here. ...

We've had some issues selling our property in the UK and for a while we did consider letting it, but there's too much hassle involved (and we don't intend to return to the UK anytime soon).

@Wanderer Returns, all fair points, except for one thing.  The OP is coming to Australia on a temporary visa.   So if they buy in Australia, they'll have to apply to FIRB for special permission to purchase (which incurs a fee of a few thousand dollars).   Then they will pay a "foreign investor" surcharge on the purchase price (aorund $40,000 on a $500,000 property). Not to forget the normal stamp duty, mortgage and conveyancing costs - another $20,000+. 

All up, they'll be paying $60,000 to $70,000 on top of the purchase price, and then of course there's the cost of selling their UK property.  Then of course, in the first few years of a mortgage, it's mostly interest that's paid off and very little principal.   The final issue is that if it's a regional visa, they'll be outside the capital cities, and capital growth on houses there is much slower.

Taking all that into account, if they fail to get a permanent visa and have to sell up and go home at the end of four years, there's a very good chance they'll make a loss on the investment, even allowing for the rent they would have paid in Australia.  And in the meantime, who knows what the UK property market will have done.

[Wanderer Returns]

19 hours ago, Marisawright said:

@Wanderer Returns, all fair points, except for one thing.  The OP is coming to Australia on a temporary visa.   So if they buy in Australia, they'll have to apply to FIRB for special permission to purchase (which incurs a fee of a few thousand dollars).   Then they will pay a "foreign investor" surcharge on the purchase price (around $40,000 on a $500,000 property). Not to forget the normal stamp duty, mortgage and conveyancing costs - another $20,000+. 

All up, they'll be paying $60,000 to $70,000 on top of the purchase price, and then of course there's the cost of selling their UK property.  Then of course, in the first few years of a mortgage, it's mostly interest that's paid off and very little principal.   The final issue is that if it's a regional visa, they'll be outside the capital cities, and capital growth on houses there is much slower.

Taking all that into account, if they fail to get a permanent visa and have to sell up and go home at the end of four years, there's a very good chance they'll make a loss on the investment, even allowing for the rent they would have paid in Australia.  And in the meantime, who knows what the UK property market will have done.

One of the great things about this forum is that you get a lot of different, and often very knowledgeable perspectives. I didn't know that temporary visa holders had to pay such a hefty surcharge to purchase property here. Yes, it would make it a big gamble to buy here in that case. I guess it would depend on the probability of them obtaining PR after 4 years - what are the criteria? I'd have thought that if you were moving here with such little long-term security, you'd need to treat it as a bit of an adventure and accept that it might just end up being a glorified 4-year working holiday visa, rather than a stepping-stone to a new life.

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Returns said:

...I didn't know that temporary visa holders had to pay such a hefty surcharge to purchase property here. Yes, it would make it a big gamble to buy here in that case. I guess it would depend on the probability of them obtaining PR after 4 years - what are the criteria?

It depends which temporary visa they're talking about.

If it's an employer-sponsored one, then the probability of getting PR is pretty low (although employers naturally suggest otherwise!).   The employer has to offer a permanent job, and they have to prove it's impossible to get an Aussie to fill it (something that will get harder with the rise in unemployment post-Covid).  Also, the government is always tinkering with the rules, and people often find they're no longer eligible by the time they're able to apply for PR.   Just take a look at the 186 thread to get an idea of the time it takes, the uncertainty, and the stress. 

However, I think it's probably a 491. That visa was designed to solve one of Australia's big problems - that migrants gravitate to the capital cities, not out in the regions where their skills are needed. .  It's similar to being on probation for a job.  You have to work in the nominated regional area for a minimum number of years, and reach a certain minimum salary.   If you can do that, then you get PR at the end of the period.  The idea is that you'll be so settled in your region by that time, you won't want to move to the big smoke.  

Once upon a time, I'd have said the 491 had a good level of certainty (provided you didn't fail the salary test). After all, the government wants you to stay.  However, 491 holders have been treated very shabbily by the government during the pandemic, so I am now less confident that they should rely on government promises.

[DrDougster]

Another couple of things to bear in mind are that if you rent out a property with a mortgage the mortgage interest can still be tax deducted in Aus even if the property is in UK. Another is that the property ladder is a bit of a myth, it's just one form of (hopefully) appreciating investment which has the benefit of CGT avoidance but the hinderance of stamp duty if you decide to move investments. Unless you sell your house and decide to keep the money in a suitcase under the bed then you'll hope to make money on it from a different investment and then can decide when to put it back into property. For example if you'd sold your house at the end of October and bought Pfizer shares and were now going to move it back into property you probably wouldn't be too troubled!

[ramot]

2 hours ago, DrDougster said:

Another couple of things to bear in mind are that if you rent out a property with a mortgage the mortgage interest can still be tax deducted in Aus even if the property is in UK. Another is that the property ladder is a bit of a myth, it's just one form of (hopefully) appreciating investment which has the benefit of CGT avoidance but the hinderance of stamp duty if you decide to move investments. Unless you sell your house and decide to keep the money in a suitcase under the bed then you'll hope to make money on it from a different investment and then can decide when to put it back into property. For example if you'd sold your house at the end of October and bought Pfizer shares and were now going to move it back into property you probably wouldn't be too troubled!

I think many people look at owning investment properties as a long term investment to supplement income in retirement. I know we did and we have no regrets.,  A steady extra income and our investment is still in place and increasing in value. We have no interest in stocks and shares, we are useless at it,  but we have purchased our properties wisely with low maintenance, in good rental/growth areas. I know there have been comparison tables between shares investment against property investment, some showing shares do better. but we make our own decisions, and we wouldn’t play the stock market.

[Wanderer Returns]

17 minutes ago, ramot said:

I think many people look at owning investment properties as a long term investment to supplement income in retirement. I know we did and we have no regrets.,  A steady extra income and our investment is still in place and increasing in value. We have no interest in stocks and shares, we are useless at it,  but we have purchased our properties wisely with low maintenance, in good rental/growth areas. I know there have been comparison tables between shares investment against property investment, some showing shares do better. but we make our own decisions, and we wouldn’t play the stock market.

Plus you are more likely to have something left for rainy day (and leave your kids, if they're lucky), whereas if you only have investments in equities then you'll probably blow it all in!  

[Parley]

1 hour ago, ramot said:

I think many people look at owning investment properties as a long term investment to supplement income in retirement. I know we did and we have no regrets.,  A steady extra income and our investment is still in place and increasing in value. We have no interest in stocks and shares, we are useless at it,  but we have purchased our properties wisely with low maintenance, in good rental/growth areas. I know there have been comparison tables between shares investment against property investment, some showing shares do better. but we make our own decisions, and we wouldn’t play the stock market.

I think the more appropriate comparison is between an investment property and money in Superannuation.

A long term investment in Super is probably as good or better, and you don't need to pick individual shares.

[ramot]

1 hour ago, Parley said:

I think the more appropriate comparison is between an investment property and money in Superannuation.

A long term investment in Super is probably as good or better, and you don't need to pick individual shares.

I’m sure You are probably right if you have Super, we don’t have Super, that’s why we preferred investment properties. 

[Lauren & Luke]

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for your replies. It has been interesting reading them all. 

I am a little confused with some of it but that is understandable as this is all new to me and I have no knowledge of it whatsoever.

The idea was to obtain a temp visa and by the end of it be able to have PR. I think it is the 491 visa I am referring too. We would rent our house in the UK and whilst on the temp visa we would rent in Australia. IF we were granted a PR visa then at this point we would look to sell our UK property and buy in Australia. Depending on salary, savings etc and all going well with the rental on the UK property we might not have to sell our UK home to help finance a property in Australia.

We live in Sunderland, NE England. 

I guess we would be really selective on who we rent our property out to in the UK. We would have to be! 

Thank you again for all your advice. Feel free to let me know if the above information changes any of the advice given. 

Hope you are all well and enjoying the sunshine. It is currently below freezing here. My worst time of year ha! 

Lauren

 

 

[Ausimi]

Hi Lauren, you are thinking along the same lines than us! 
We are planning to go around October time, if flights are available! And leave our small property here to rent. I have a permanent spouse visa,  and probably will stay there for a long time, However not ready to sell here just in case! 
The practicalities around taxes and rental are something I’m definitely not familiar with and the thought of dealing with all of it specially once we are far away, is daunting. 
 

[Marisawright]

On 18/01/2021 at 23:12, Lauren & Luke said:

The idea was to obtain a temp visa and by the end of it be able to have PR. I think it is the 491 visa I am referring too. We would rent our house in the UK and whilst on the temp visa we would rent in Australia. IF we were granted a PR visa then at this point we would look to sell our UK property and buy in Australia. Depending on salary, savings etc and all going well with the rental on the UK property we might not have to sell our UK home to help finance a property in Australia.

Bottom line is that it will cost you thousands of extra dollars to buy while you're on the temp visa - so if you didn't get PR and had to sell, you'd lose a lot of money.  So your strategy is a good one.

[Marisawright]

8 hours ago, Ausimi said:

The practicalities around taxes and rental are something I’m definitely not familiar with and the thought of dealing with all of it specially once we are far away, is daunting. 
 

Get yourself a really good agent to manage the property.  Don't try to save money by going for the cheapest one!   As for tax, it can be completely painless if you get a good tax agent,  @Alan Collett is the one most recommended here because he's used to UK migrants and how the different visas affect what tax you pay.  It's worth having a consultation before you lease the property, because there are things you can do to improve your tax liability down the track.

[Lauren & Luke]

On 26/01/2021 at 13:01, Ausimi said:

Hi Lauren, you are thinking along the same lines than us! 
We are planning to go around October time, if flights are available! And leave our small property here to rent. I have a permanent spouse visa,  and probably will stay there for a long time, However not ready to sell here just in case! 
The practicalities around taxes and rental are something I’m definitely not familiar with and the thought of dealing with all of it specially once we are far away, is daunting. 
 

Hey,

Yeah it is a bit of a mindfield isn't it? 

I definitely think it is worth the cost of a consultation with an expert. We like to do everything right and by the book so I am definitely going to take the advice given on this thread.

The sensible approach for us would be to rent our house in the UK, rent in Australia and IF we get granted the PR to sell up and then buy in Australia. We are thinking if we didn't get the PR then at least we have our home to come home too so we don't have to restart on the property ladder. We have already had interest in someone wanting to rent our house if we made the move at the monthly cost we would want. And we know the family well and it is a married couple so I don't think we would have any issues there. The hard part is just finding the right people because we don't want to be on the other side of the world and having to deal with any issues. But then there is the option of a rental agent. Do we go with an agent or don't we? There is loads to consider and everyones circumstances are different, it is just finding the right path for us. 

Where is it your moving to? We are right at the beginning of the process so it will be a while yet for us. We have already had a consultation with a migration agent back in March 2020 so we have an idea of where we are heading in terma of visa's. Just a few things to iron out here and this pandemic to deal with then we are ready. 

Lauren

[Lauren & Luke]

16 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Bottom line is that it will cost you thousands of extra dollars to buy while you're on the temp visa - so if you didn't get PR and had to sell, you'd lose a lot of money.  So your strategy is a good one.

Thank you Marisa. Glad I am thinking logically ha. Hope your well. 

Lauren

 

[Craig Colas]

31 minutes ago, Lauren & Luke said:

Hey,

Yeah it is a bit of a mindfield isn't it? 

I definitely think it is worth the cost of a consultation with an expert. We like to do everything right and by the book so I am definitely going to take the advice given on this thread.

The sensible approach for us would be to rent our house in the UK, rent in Australia and IF we get granted the PR to sell up and then buy in Australia. We are thinking if we didn't get the PR then at least we have our home to come home too so we don't have to restart on the property ladder. We have already had interest in someone wanting to rent our house if we made the move at the monthly cost we would want. And we know the family well and it is a married couple so I don't think we would have any issues there. The hard part is just finding the right people because we don't want to be on the other side of the world and having to deal with any issues. But then there is the option of a rental agent. Do we go with an agent or don't we? There is loads to consider and everyones circumstances are different, it is just finding the right path for us. 

Where is it your moving to? We are right at the beginning of the process so it will be a while yet for us. We have already had a consultation with a migration agent back in March 2020 so we have an idea of where we are heading in terma of visa's. Just a few things to iron out here and this pandemic to deal with then we are ready. 

Lauren

Hi Lauren,

We are doing the exact same thing. We got our 491 visa granted in December 2020 and are renting our house out until we change over to the permanent visa in a few years time.

As mentioned above you don't need to declare your rental income in Australia as it is a temporary visa. You would just need to do one in the UK. In regards to CGT it will be negligible if any depending on if it was your main house you lived in and there is lots of tax offsets against it if that is the case so I wouldn't worry about that either. I would just recommend a reputable state agent to manage it while away and you should be all set.

Craig

[Lauren & Luke]

5 minutes ago, Craig Colas said:

Hi Lauren,

We are doing the exact same thing. We got our 491 visa granted in December 2020 and are renting our house out until we change over to the permanent visa in a few years time.

As mentioned above you don't need to declare your rental income in Australia as it is a temporary visa. You would just need to do one in the UK. In regards to CGT it will be negligible if any depending on if it was your main house you lived in and there is lots of tax offsets against it if that is the case so I wouldn't worry about that either. I would just recommend a reputable state agent to manage it while away and you should be all set.

Craig

Hi Craig,

Thank you for the info. Did you use a tax agent?

Are you using an rental agent?

Where in Australia are you heading? 

It would just be me, my husband and our british bulldog Daisy.

We initially wanted to head to Perth but when we had our consultation back in March 2020, the visa we were advised to take was the 491 but that didn't cover WA. 

My husband would be the main applicant as he is a joiner. I work for an insurance company, unfortunately that is not in demand

Lauren 

[Ausimi]

Hi Lauren, 

we are going to Perth, visas sorted only trying to figure out how to get there and when.

I have to enter Australia before November 2021, but not sure if that’s going to be possible, it’s all very uncertain!
 

It is difficult to plan anything at the moment when you hear stories about flights being cancelled and quarantine to think about! We are my husband, me and a 5 year old, so not easy at all!