Is Dan Andrews doing the right thing?

[rtritudr]

6 minutes ago, Alan Collett said:

Well the State ALP seemed to take it seriously enough to consider a leadership spill ...

According to the Murdoch media that is.

[Marisawright]

21 hours ago, Rossmoyne said:

 It would seem to me from what they tell me and from what I read in the media, that the whole second wave there was down to a BLM riot, a lack of professional hotel quarantine rules and supervision, a lack of efficient contact tracing, and a curfew that no-one will put their hands up to agreeing to.  

There has been absolutely no evidence that any of the second wave was due to the BLM demonstrations.   There's a lot of talk about the "botched hotel quarantine" but actually, although it was admittedly a bit chaotic, it turns out that  99% of the second wave was down to ONE family -yes, just ONE family that had to leave their room for a while, and a guard took them for a walk. 

Bear in mind also that the reason there was a relaxing of rules in hotel quarantine was that there was a suicide and authorities started to be very worried about guests' mental health if they were confined.  There was a Facebook group (and may still be, for all I know) for quarantined guests where they exchanged tips on how to wangle time outside, including claiming suicidal thoughts.  Personally, I think the only mistake the government made was assuming guests would behave like resonsible adults instead of spoilt toddlers. 

There is no evidence of a "lack of efficient contact tracing" - that's a Scott Morrison accusation.   He may claim that NSW has done a better job, but they've had a mere handful of cases - I wonder if they'd have done any better if they'd had the hundreds of cases the Victoria has had?  I know they've sent a team up to NSW to check out their systems and adopted SalesForce, but I really wonder if that's because it will help, or if it's just to shut the criticism up.  

And of course, the curfew is controversial but it hasn't caused a single case (how could it?).  I think the curfew is a great idea - people aren't supposed to be out visiting or partying anyway, and the curfew makes it easier to spot people who are doing so.  Perhaps it should have been set a couple of hours later but that's as far as I'd go.  Also I do not see him brushing off the media at all.  He stands at that microphone for ages answering question after question with unusual patience, IMO, unlike some government ministers I could mention who walk away. 

I'm not saying "Dan can do no wrong".  There are lots of things that could have been done better, in hindsight.  But considering the pandemic is a new situation that no one has ever experienced, are we really surprised?  Are we forgetting that our governments are staffed by people who are human and they make mistakes sometimes?  

Edited September 17, 2020 by Marisawright

[Alan Collett]

24 minutes ago, rtritudr said:

According to the Murdoch media that is.

Ah yes - I forgot - it's always the fault of the Murdoch press.

At least it is in the minds of the unquestioning.

Onwards!

[Alan Collett]

24 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

There has been absolutely no evidence that any of the second wave was due to the BLM demonstrations.   There's a lot of talk about the "botched hotel quarantine" but actually, although it was admittedly a bit chaotic, it turns out that  99% of the second wave was down to ONE family -yes, just ONE family that had to leave their room for a while, and a guard took them for a walk. 

Bear in mind also that the reason there was a relaxing of rules in hotel quarantine was that there was a suicide and authorities started to be very worried about guests' mental health if they were confined.  There was a Facebook group (and may still be, for all I know) for quarantined guests where they exchanged tips on how to wangle time outside, including claiming suicidal thoughts.  Personally, I think the only mistake the government made was assuming guests would behave like resonsible adults instead of spoilt toddlers. 

There is no evidence of a "lack of efficient contact tracing" - that's a Scott Morrison accusation.   He may claim that NSW has done a better job, but they've had a mere handful of cases - I wonder if they'd have done any better if they'd had the hundreds of cases the Victoria has had?  I know they've sent a team up to NSW to check out their systems and adopted SalesForce, but I really wonder if that's because it will help, or if it's just to shut the criticism up.  

And of course, the curfew is controversial but it hasn't caused a single case (how could it?).  I think the curfew is a great idea - people aren't supposed to be out visiting or partying anyway, and the curfew makes it easier to spot people who are doing so.  Perhaps it should have been set a couple of hours later but that's as far as I'd go.  Also I do not see him brushing off the media at all.  He stands at that microphone for ages answering question after question with unusual patience, IMO, unlike some government ministers I could mention who walk away. 

I'm not saying "Dan can do no wrong".  There are lots of things that could have been done better, in hindsight.  But considering the pandemic is a new situation that no one has ever experienced, are we really surprised?  Are we forgetting that our governments are staffed by people who are human and they make mistakes sometimes?  

Dan would have been sacked if he'd been the CEO of a large company.

He's out of his depth and so are most of his team.

To say the only mistake made by the State Government is assuming guests would behave like adults is highly questionable IMHO.  

I believe the ALP has been in power in Victoria for 20 of the last 30 years.   They surely now own responsibility for the public sector, which has been found wanting when the going has gotten tough.   Overpaid and overstaffed.   Is surely time to bring back someone like Jeff Kennett!

When we look back on this with more critical an appraisal than some here are prepared to show I anticipate there will be more to this debacle than hotel guests not behaving themselves.

Best wishes to all.

[Peach]

20 minutes ago, Alan Collett said:

Ah yes - I forgot - it's always the fault of the Murdoch press.

At least it is in the minds of the unquestioning.

Onwards!

They do seem to be the ones with the Andrew's fixation....

[Alan Collett]

Just now, Peach said:

They do seem to be the ones with the Andrew's fixation....

I'm not sure it's a fixation - that's an overstatement.

Maybe it is more that the News International press is more questioning?   And why shouldn't our politicians be held to account anyway?

Why is Victoria out on its own when it comes to COVID cases?    Who is accountable and what is going to happen to those who aren't up to the job in hand?

Isn't all of this an issue deserving of critical media attention?

Best regards.

 

[Jon the Hat]

I tend to think the other states have been incredibly lucky.  Australia overall has been.  I can't see it lasting, although obviously I hope it does.  There will come a tipping point when the risk to the economy outweighs all other concerns, becuase without money there is no standard of living or healthcare.  That point is soon in Vic i think.

[Peach]

39 minutes ago, Alan Collett said:

I'm not sure it's a fixation - that's an overstatement.

Maybe it is more that the News International press is more questioning?   And why shouldn't our politicians be held to account anyway?

Why is Victoria out on its own when it comes to COVID cases?    Who is accountable and what is going to happen to those who aren't up to the job in hand?

Isn't all of this an issue deserving of critical media attention?

Best regards.

 

I think it's pot luck.  Victoria got unlucky..  Constantly throwing pot shots in the middle of the crisis isn't helping at all.   Deal with the issue, then have the post mortem later.

Don't suppose you watched Media Watch this week?  "Someone" appears to be paying good money to use bots try and make it look like Dan isn't supported in online polls.

[Alan Collett]

6 minutes ago, Peach said:

I think it's pot luck.  Victoria got unlucky..  Constantly throwing pot shots in the middle of the crisis isn't helping at all.   Deal with the issue, then have the post mortem later.

Don't suppose you watched Media Watch this week?  "Someone" appears to be paying good money to use bots try and make it look like Dan isn't supported in online polls.

There's no way this is pot luck - sorry.

Someone stuffed up.   Crucial decisions were either not made, or were made incorrectly.   Or there's dysfunction within the public sector.   Or all of the above.

Frankly I'm annoyed.   I can't see my children.   I can't go to my office.   I'm looking to take on a member of staff or two to work in Collins St and that's on hold until I can get back in there again.

And by the sound of things I've gotten off fairly lightly.

Someone/some people should surely be accountable.   Move them on.   Quickly please.  

Most would say that the head honcho is the one who should be responsible.    Unfortunately is there anyone of any competence to replace him?    I doubt it.

Best regards.

[Peach]

5 minutes ago, Alan Collett said:

Most would say that the head honcho is the one who should be responsible.    Unfortunately is there anyone of any competence to replace him?    I doubt it.

I seem to remember the PM and his minsters pushing to re-open a quickly as possible when we were close to eradication like NZ.  Where is their responsibility in this? 

Other than a feeling of retribution what would you actually gain from pushing Dan of the perch?

[mt9754]

It's an interesting topic.

Lockdown too much - people die of domestics, undiagnosed cancers, missed hospital surgeries, and other ailments just because people are too scared to access health services.  They also die of poverty due to loss of income (a big!!! killer - food, environment etc).

Lockdown too little - you kill ~3% of the population, with the old and fragile being affected the most.

Sometimes I think the lockdowns in Australia are too strict, sometimes I think the lockdowns in the UK were too lax - only time will tell what was the right strategy.

[Dusty Plains]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

I tend to think the other states have been incredibly lucky.  Australia overall has been.  I can't see it lasting, although obviously I hope it does.  There will come a tipping point when the risk to the economy outweighs all other concerns, becuase without money there is no standard of living or healthcare.  That point is soon in Vic i think.

No not lucky at all. It has been all down to good management by Scott Morrison, supplemented by compliant population, largely.

Early on, Australia shut the doors and since then, it has largely kept the doors closed at least until mid 2021.  We had possibly the largest population associated with any nation whereby thousands of Chinese students were returning to Australian Universities for first semester, February 2020 at about the time we were just starting to join the world dialogue  about "wet markets in Whuhan". So there was never any sense that we were some sort of outpost at the end of the earth whereby Covid 19 basically could not be bothered with. That was never the case. You can add New Zealand to the mix there as well.

Given what is occurring in Europe and the UK, on one hand. and the USA and South America on the other if there is no vaccine, then those countries and continents could resemble the new ends of the earth. 

 

[Tulip1]

14 hours ago, Marisawright said:

There has been absolutely no evidence that any of the second wave was due to the BLM demonstrations.   There's a lot of talk about the "botched hotel quarantine" but actually, although it was admittedly a bit chaotic, it turns out that  99% of the second wave was down to ONE family -yes, just ONE family that had to leave their room for a while, and a guard took them for a walk. 

Bear in mind also that the reason there was a relaxing of rules in hotel quarantine was that there was a suicide and authorities started to be very worried about guests' mental health if they were confined.  There was a Facebook group (and may still be, for all I know) for quarantined guests where they exchanged tips on how to wangle time outside, including claiming suicidal thoughts.  Personally, I think the only mistake the government made was assuming guests would behave like resonsible adults instead of spoilt toddlers. 

There is no evidence of a "lack of efficient contact tracing" - that's a Scott Morrison accusation.   He may claim that NSW has done a better job, but they've had a mere handful of cases - I wonder if they'd have done any better if they'd had the hundreds of cases the Victoria has had?  I know they've sent a team up to NSW to check out their systems and adopted SalesForce, but I really wonder if that's because it will help, or if it's just to shut the criticism up.  

And of course, the curfew is controversial but it hasn't caused a single case (how could it?).  I think the curfew is a great idea - people aren't supposed to be out visiting or partying anyway, and the curfew makes it easier to spot people who are doing so.  Perhaps it should have been set a couple of hours later but that's as far as I'd go.  Also I do not see him brushing off the media at all.  He stands at that microphone for ages answering question after question with unusual patience, IMO, unlike some government ministers I could mention who walk away. 

I'm not saying "Dan can do no wrong".  There are lots of things that could have been done better, in hindsight.  But considering the pandemic is a new situation that no one has ever experienced, are we really surprised?  Are we forgetting that our governments are staffed by people who are human and they make mistakes sometimes?  

I can’t help but wonder if the highlighting of no cases caused by the BLM demonstrations is so as not to open a can of worms. It’s exactly the same here, no mention of any outbreaks from tens of thousands of people marching, protesting and demonstrating. Is it really logical that one family got taken for one supervised walk and caused 99% of the second wave yet thousands and thousands walked together for hours and hours and caused no cases. A few people pop out for a walk and cause carnage yet many thousands pop out for a lengthy walk and all’s good.  If statistics were used, I wonder what the chances of that being the case is. It has to be incredibly low. 

[Marisawright]

11 hours ago, Dusty Plains said:

No not lucky at all. It has been all down to good management by Scott Morrison, supplemented by compliant population, largely.

Scott Morrison did the right thing closing the borders early, and insisting they stay closed until next year.  Since then, all the good stuff has been done by the State Premiers, not by him.   Scott was against closing the state borders and against keeping restrictions in place - he's been pushing hard to relax, relax, relax all along.  Thanks to the State Premiers telling him to get stuffed, all the states except Victoria are now more-or-less covid-free and working as normal.   If they'd followed SoMo's advice, they'd have let infected Victorians in, and the whole of Australia would be in the same boat as  Melbourne. 

[NicF]

56 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

I can’t help but wonder if the highlighting of no cases caused by the BLM demonstrations is so as not to open a can of worms. It’s exactly the same here, no mention of any outbreaks from tens of thousands of people marching, protesting and demonstrating. Is it really logical that one family got taken for one supervised walk and caused 99% of the second wave yet thousands and thousands walked together for hours and hours and caused no cases. A few people pop out for a walk and cause carnage yet many thousands pop out for a lengthy walk and all’s good.  If statistics were used, I wonder what the chances of that being the case is. It has to be incredibly low. 

The difference is the family that popped out for a walk had covid and passed it on the security guard who then went about his daily life passing it on to his family and close contacts who gave it to their family and close contacts etc etc.  If no one at the black lives matter protest had covid then an outbreak could not have started from there.  Even if someone did have it if they were wearing a mask and not staying too close to others for any length of time then they are unlikely to have infected any one else. 

[Marisawright]

57 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

I can’t help but wonder if the highlighting of no cases caused by the BLM demonstrations is so as not to open a can of worms.

They have done genomic testing to discover which strain of covid infected everyone, and contact tracing which hasn't been able to trace any of the cases back to participants in the march.

I wasn't at the march, but I was out walking nearby just before the demo, where people were marshalling.   I was surprised how orderly it was - everyone wearing masks, and a lot of them were in groups being given a briefing about safety, and people were walking around, handing out masks and hand sanitizer.  Not my image of typical demonstrators at all!    The demonstration was peaceful, there were no arrests and no property damage.

Before the march, there were experts all over the TV warning it was going to be a catastrophe.  Since then we have had the same people back on TV expressing surprise that it didn't cause a spike of infections, but now they're saying it just goes to show how effective mask-wearing is, and also what a huge difference it makes if you're outdoors rather than indoors.

[Tulip1]

4 minutes ago, NicF said:

The difference is the family that popped out for a walk had covid and passed it on the security guard who then went about his daily life passing it on to his family and close contacts who gave it to their family and close contacts etc etc.  If no one at the black lives matter protest had covid then an outbreak could not have started from there.  Even if someone did have it if they were wearing a mask and not staying too close to others for any length of time then they are unlikely to have infected any one else. 

Thats true. Just surprised that no one in a group of thousands had it. Many didn’t wear masks, not in the U.K. anyway but I don’t know about over there.  They were staying close to others whilst marching for hours, certainly no less close than a security guard walking with the family I’d say.  Often seen linking arms too. Silly that the family and guard weren’t made to wear masks although here we’ve never had to wear them outdoors.  Such a shame it happened however it did. Horrible virus. 

[Marisawright]

8 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

Thats true. Just surprised that no one in a group of thousands had it. Many didn’t wear masks, not in the U.K. anyway but I don’t know about over there. 

That's the thing, don't assume the behaviour was the same.  Like I said, I was astonished watching the orderly groups of people in the park, all well-behaved, mask-wearing, distancing - they even formed up into neat crocodiles, like schoolkids, when they left the park to join the demo.  I'm sure there would have been others there who weren't so conscientious, however the fact that there were no scuffles or arrests says something about what the demo itself was like.

They are now saying the chance of catching the virus outdoors is 20 times less than the risk indoors.  And there was a case recently of a hairdresser who did about 100 haircuts before she realised she had covid - but she was very conscientious about wearing her mask, and not one of those clients caught it. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Marisawright

[Dusty Plains]

2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Scott Morrison did the right thing closing the borders early, and insisting they stay closed until next year.  Since then, all the good stuff has been done by the State Premiers, not by him.   Scott was against closing the state borders and against keeping restrictions in place - he's been pushing hard to relax, relax, relax all along.  Thanks to the State Premiers telling him to get stuffed, all the states except Victoria are now more-or-less covid-free and working as normal.   If they'd followed SoMo's advice, they'd have let infected Victorians in, and the whole of Australia would be in the same boat as  Melbourne. 

I would like to have been a fly on the wall when any Premier told the PM to "get stuffed" . You may recall that both the ADF and Federal Police were dispatched quite early in the piece to establish security arrangements at quarantine accommodation and at borders as well. They seemes to be everywhere in Sydney. Since then, SCOMO realises that we need to open the borders sooner than later, for the sake of avoiding a cataclysmic recession or depression which could have a greater impact upon our health and wealth, as a whole population, than that posed by currently by Covid-19.

"If they'd followed SoMo's advice, they'd have let infected Victorians in, and the whole of Australia would be in the same boat as  Melbourne" 

If Dan had not refused assistance from the commonwealth in properly securing quarantine arrangements in Melbourne, then we would most likely not be having this discussion.  

 

 

[Marisawright]

59 minutes ago, Dusty Plains said:

I would like to have been a fly on the wall when any Premier told the PM to "get stuffed" .

You don't have to be a fly on the wall.   Just take a look at some of the media conferences by the WA premier and the Queensland premier, responding to Scott Morrison's calls to open up the borders. Very strident.

Let's not sidetrack by talking about failures in hotel quarantine. We're talking about interstate borders.

[Paul1Perth]

19 hours ago, Marisawright said:

There has been absolutely no evidence that any of the second wave was due to the BLM demonstrations.   There's a lot of talk about the "botched hotel quarantine" but actually, although it was admittedly a bit chaotic, it turns out that  99% of the second wave was down to ONE family -yes, just ONE family that had to leave their room for a while, and a guard took them for a walk. 

Bear in mind also that the reason there was a relaxing of rules in hotel quarantine was that there was a suicide and authorities started to be very worried about guests' mental health if they were confined.  There was a Facebook group (and may still be, for all I know) for quarantined guests where they exchanged tips on how to wangle time outside, including claiming suicidal thoughts.  Personally, I think the only mistake the government made was assuming guests would behave like resonsible adults instead of spoilt toddlers. 

There is no evidence of a "lack of efficient contact tracing" - that's a Scott Morrison accusation.   He may claim that NSW has done a better job, but they've had a mere handful of cases - I wonder if they'd have done any better if they'd had the hundreds of cases the Victoria has had?  I know they've sent a team up to NSW to check out their systems and adopted SalesForce, but I really wonder if that's because it will help, or if it's just to shut the criticism up.  

And of course, the curfew is controversial but it hasn't caused a single case (how could it?).  I think the curfew is a great idea - people aren't supposed to be out visiting or partying anyway, and the curfew makes it easier to spot people who are doing so.  Perhaps it should have been set a couple of hours later but that's as far as I'd go.  Also I do not see him brushing off the media at all.  He stands at that microphone for ages answering question after question with unusual patience, IMO, unlike some government ministers I could mention who walk away. 

I'm not saying "Dan can do no wrong".  There are lots of things that could have been done better, in hindsight.  But considering the pandemic is a new situation that no one has ever experienced, are we really surprised?  Are we forgetting that our governments are staffed by people who are human and they make mistakes sometimes?  

I read that they had traced hundreds of cases to the BLM rallies just after it happened. Then it all disappeared from the news and media.

Stands to reason that you can't just have mass rallies, with hundreds of people close to each other, in the middle of a pandemic.

Didn't surprise me that they OK'd the rally in Melbourne mind you. Full of woke, cancel culture people.

[Paul1Perth]

17 hours ago, Alan Collett said:

There's no way this is pot luck - sorry.

Someone stuffed up.   Crucial decisions were either not made, or were made incorrectly.   Or there's dysfunction within the public sector.   Or all of the above.

Frankly I'm annoyed.   I can't see my children.   I can't go to my office.   I'm looking to take on a member of staff or two to work in Collins St and that's on hold until I can get back in there again.

And by the sound of things I've gotten off fairly lightly.

Someone/some people should surely be accountable.   Move them on.   Quickly please.  

Most would say that the head honcho is the one who should be responsible.    Unfortunately is there anyone of any competence to replace him?    I doubt it.

Best regards.

Someone stuffed up in China. May as well try and get rid of their leader.

[Alan Collett]

1 minute ago, Paul1Perth said:

Someone stuffed up in China. May as well try and get rid of their leader.

Yes, as much chance of that happening there as there is here in Victoria!

Best regards.

[Marisawright]

17 minutes ago, Paul1Perth said:

I read that they had traced hundreds of cases to the BLM rallies just after it happened. Then it all disappeared from the news and media.

Of course the conspiracy theorists will be making up stories too, so how do you know that's the truth?  Was it backed up by any evidence?  Are we talking about the BLM rally in Melbourne specifically or all over the world?

What do they mean by "just after it happened"?  Covid does have an incubation period,  you know. 

[Alan Collett]

1 minute ago, Marisawright said:

Of course the conspiracy theorists will be making up stories too, so how do you know that's the truth?  Was it backed up by any evidence?  Are we talking about the BLM rally in Melbourne specifically or all over the world?

What do they mean by "just after it happened"?  Covid does have an incubation period,  you know. 

If nothing else allowing the BLM demo in Melbourne - I'm focusing on this because we're talking about the Andrews administration - sent completely the wrong message at a time when social distancing was being hammered at us endlessly.

Allowing the demo to proceed was irresponsible of the State Government and surely lays the administration open to the charge of hypocrisy and double standards.

Family gatherings in certain ethnic communities took place at the same time (wasn't Eid over the same period?), and I suggest that some in the community would have said that if a BLM march can take place we can gather together as a family.  

Best regards.