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ali

CTF - what's the solution

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8 hours ago, kungfustu said:

I think you also need to consider that this type of debate is isolated predominantly to CTF.....do you want it to spread to other parts of the forum because that could happen If CTF is closed......

It would get deleted from other sections of the forum

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I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

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13 minutes ago, ssiri said:

 


All the above should not be tolerated, even considered credible on a migration forum. Enforce the rules and they will stop coming, or they will go elsewhere.

Another suggestion was corral to a pvt site, Then owners, mods and those with the legal authority to decide what’s ‘PC’ and what’s not can take over.

You could enforce longer bans, but if there is form in that type of activity being arbitrary, and value judgement based, rather than in a basic set out in law, it does nothing for the main aims of the forum and can be challenged (and not just on the forum).

 

Thank you and it falls back to that fine line again... If we allow no negative/flippant comments about Poms, Northerners etc then we cant allow then about Aussies, etc and that can prevent people in MBTTUK posting their thoughts. We then get accused of stifling speech if you dont like Aus and the vicious circle continues. As a Northerner ,i laugh at some of the comments made but some dont find it funny... Arrgghh ,lol, round and round it goes.

We try to enforce the rules but if we have extra work,go for a day out. or go on holiday ,it gets ridiculous. We are volunteers and despite the hours we do give, we cant be on line 24/7. 

Longer bans didn't work, they just came back with a different IP and user name .

  Cal x


If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place...

If you get a chance,take it, If it changes your life,let it. Nobody said it would be easy they just said it would be worth it...

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1 hour ago, ssiri said:

What are you seeking to achieve with CTF, as a section within PomsInOz and the wider family of Migration Australia sites?
 

I am willling to bet that CTF was introduced to serve two valuable purposes. 

  • encouraging members to interact and get to know each other, which fosters community feeling
  • creating regular new activity on the site even if the regular question/answer forums are quiet  - this is imjportant to keep PomsinOz scoring highly on Google searches.

The political and climate change discussions are probably having the opposite effect now (turning people off, and too off-topic to please Google).  

If lack of new content is an issue for the forum now (because it's certainly quieter than it used to be), then it may be time to consider amalgamating the other forums into the main PomsInOz site and redirecting their URL's.

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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2 minutes ago, calNgary said:

Thank you and it falls back to that fine line again... If we allow no negative/flippant comments about Poms, Northerners etc then we cant allow then about Aussies, etc and that can prevent people in MBTTUK posting their thoughts. We then get accused of stifling speech if you dont like Aus and the vicious circle continues. As a Northerner ,i laugh at some of the comments made but some dont find it funny... Arrgghh ,lol, round and round it goes.

We try to enforce the rules but if we have extra work,go for a day out. or go on holiday ,it gets ridiculous. We are volunteers and despite the hours we do give, we cant be on line 24/7. 

Longer bans didn't work, they just came back with a different IP and user name .

  Cal x

Jeez that's really funny.  Can't they take the hint?  Don't they know the meaning of b*gger off.  😂

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4 hours ago, tea4too said:

Ali isn't asking whether people want to keep CTF as how people feel about this section of the forum isn't the issue, it's the unmanageable amount of work created for the mods that is unacceptable. Removing the report button might reduce their need for input but allowing threads to disintegrate into cyber bullying and worse would inevitably change the general atmosphere of the site. For different reasons the same could be said about closing CTF, as PIO would simply become a migration Q&A forum and the friendly community who visit threads such as IKNWC etc would probably disintegrate.

I'm not sure there is a simple answer but I remember similar problems years ago in relation to MBTTUK and one of the main reasons I joined PIO was to offer support to pingpongers on the receiving end of scathing and patronising criticism. Things got so bad that for a while a private section was set up but ultimately it was no longer needed, and thankfully MBTTUK seems a lot more civilised these days.

But I wonder if this approach might work again? i.e. move a complained about thread to a private section and anyone who wants to continue to read or contribute to it must either be a member of the exiled thread section, or apply to become a member? Other than that I have no idea as people will always disagree, some more loudly than others and often without filters of any kind. T x 

We did a few years ago make CTF an opt in part of the forum with the idea that it wouldn't be moderated - unfortunately that didn't work 


I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

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double post

Edited by Marisawright
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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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1 minute ago, ali said:

We did a few years ago make CTF an opt in part of the forum with the idea that it wouldn't be moderated - unfortunately that didn't work 

In what way didn't it work?  I'm curious.


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Just now, Marisawright said:

In what way didn't it work?  I'm curious.

The vitriol became even worse is all I will say.  CTF no longer appears on the front pages of the forum, there was a time that some of the posts in CTF became associated with a white supremacists site,

I know it's a big ask (because it's one that's asked repeatedly to no avail), but I really don't understand why people can't moderate their own content.

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Thank you and it falls back to that fine line again... If we allow no negative/flippant comments about Poms, Northerners etc then we cant allow then about Aussies, etc and that can prevent people in MBTTUK posting their thoughts. We then get accused of stifling speech if you dont like Aus and the vicious circle continues. As a Northerner ,i laugh at some of the comments made but some dont find it funny... Arrgghh ,lol, round and round it goes.
We try to enforce the rules but if we have extra work,go for a day out. or go on holiday ,it gets ridiculous. We are volunteers and despite the hours we do give, we cant be on line 24/7. 
Longer bans didn't work, they just came back with a different IP and user name .
  Cal x


I get it’s a pain, but that’s the job of a mod/owner, and those who manage the sites.

There is a legal basis for all of it, and hate crimes so it’s not just a matter of opinion. Go back to the main aims of the site and work backwards from there.

Focus on what the site/s Migration Australia has is/are meant to be and for whom. People will complain if what they like to indulge in is at odds with the aims and values of the site, but that’s just to bad and they’d get over it and go elsewhere. It’s not a popularity contest.

Having said that, close down the migration bit and just leave it as CTF. If that is what the aim is. The issues around time to manage it won’t go away. Especially where the times we live in mean that crimes or perception of crime can be reported. Actually that should work in your favour, a natural deterrent to ease the overhead. Look into the legal basis and liability of it all, it may actually help.

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Thanks for the suggestions so far (and there are some good ones - so thank you). 

CTF was created for all the topics that didn't fit into other parts of the forum and 2nd to the migration visa sections is the most used sub forum.  It used to be really quite a fun, lighthearted part of the forum  and Cal and I (as the main moderators of CTF), don't want to get rid of it altogether but it has to change.

  We will be  looking at some of the solutions you've suggested (and asked for other moderator comments) in order to have dialogue with admin.  One of the key themes from this thread is about what's acceptable/unacceptable and having more defined rules so that they can be enforced in a consistent manner - it seems that if we can establish this we might be able to achieve something.  (I also like the idea of a locked political section and would hope that's something that could be trialled).

So rather than start another thread … what do you the membership feel is acceptable/unacceptable content for CTF and what rules would you have.  

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I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

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14 minutes ago, ali said:

The vitriol became even worse is all I will say.  CTF no longer appears on the front pages of the forum, there was a time that some of the posts in CTF became associated with a white supremacists site,

I know it's a big ask (because it's one that's asked repeatedly to no avail), but I really don't understand why people can't moderate their own content.

Unbelievable!  

The point you make about moderating personal content would be common sense you'd think but like you I don't understand why some posters are just plain offensive and arrogant. Their opinion is ALWAYS the one that's right.  It would be funny if it wasn't so childish and pathetic.  Talk about set in their ways.

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Just leave it alone. There is nothing wrong with it.

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I want it all, and I want it now.

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1 minute ago, Parley said:

Just leave it alone. There is nothing wrong with it.

Well that's your opinion and that's fine of course.  Maybe it should be put to a vote.

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18 minutes ago, ssiri said:

I get it’s a pain, but that’s the job of a mod/owner, and those who manage the sites.

 

But the point is, the mods are volunteers.  Make the job too onerous and those volunteers will decide it's too much work and they can't continue.  Then the whole site loses. 

You might say that the owners will have to stump up for paid moderators - but I suspect that would make the site unviable economically.  

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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1 minute ago, Marisawright said:

But the point is, the mods are volunteers.  Make the job too onerous and those volunteers will decide it's too much work and they can't continue.  Then the whole site loses. 

You might say that the owners will have to stump up for paid moderators - but I suspect that would make the site unviable economically.  

I'd be a useless moderator.  Members would be banned right, left and centre.  😉  

The mods here do a great job!   Must be really difficult and frustrating at times though.

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1 minute ago, Marisawright said:

But the point is, the mods are volunteers.  Make the job too onerous and those volunteers will decide it's too much work and they can't continue.  Then the whole site loses. 

You might say that the owners will have to stump up for paid moderators - but I suspect that would make the site unviable economically.  

Thanks Marisa - there's been a few times in the last 12 years that I've thought of jacking it in when things have felt particularly tough.  I do it partly to give back to a site that was helpful in our own migration journey and also because of my close friendship with Kate.  I think to pay moderators they'd have to look at charging a membership and i'm not sure even that would compensate for the 'danger money' lol  I can only speak for myself, I work 40 hours a week and often have some work to do at home, I'm sometimes restricted to coming on at 5.30am when I get up or at 8pm after dinner.  I didn't manage to log on the other day and There was 35 reported posts to review which didn't leave time to review the more contentious threads.

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I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

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8 minutes ago, calNgary said:

But some don't and here is a prime example of how things get out of control from one flippant comment.. (sorry Rallyman, not picking on, you were just right place ,right time but are certainly not the only one to do this).

     Cal x

 

20 minutes ago, calNgary said:

But some don't and here is a prime example of how things get out of control from one flippant comment.. (sorry Rallyman, not picking on, you were just right place ,right time but are certainly not the only one to do this).

     Cal x

So what would I be guilty of doing , the question mark at the end indicates I was asking a question Of original comment .

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41 minutes ago, ali said:

Thanks Marisa - there's been a few times in the last 12 years that I've thought of jacking it in when things have felt particularly tough.  

Yes, I have some experience because I did volunteer as a moderator a few years ago.  I quit because I got told off a few times for expressing my own opinions too strongly, so I felt being a mod was too restricting on my own enjoyment of the forums. 

I do hope they''ll consider a private Current Affairs forum.   It really wouldn't matter if the vitriol got out of hand in that forum - if the participants can't handle it then they'll leave and it will die its own death eventually.  

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Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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2 hours ago, newjez said:

Tbh, has anyone ever changed their minds on anything posted on CTF?

Whenever an argument is won, it's just met with smiley faces.

I lean a little to the left, but I have an open mind. But whenever I express that I'm met with personal attacks about fence sitting and flip flopping.

In light of the discussion, I'm struggling to see the point of CTF and wouldn't miss it. It must only be used by about a dozen people anyway, who are all entrenched in their beliefs.

How does one determine when an argument is won?........and is it about winning anyway?

I get fun out of the bi-play and I also like the fact that the forum has a wide spectrum of views.  The standard of debate leaves much to be desired but I accept that many of the participants are not what could be described as deep-thinkers.

In the wider blogosphere too many people are being led by algorithms onto sites populated by people of the same persuasion as themselves which is unhealthy.

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Timeline: 309/100 Sent 7/8/13, Money Taken 9/8/13, CO appointed 3/9/13. Med 3/12/13. Police check 4/12/13. VISA GRANTED 8/4/14, Subclass100. Recce August 2014. Arrived 30 July 2015.

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CTF no longer appears on the front pages of the forum, there was a time that some of the posts in CTF became associated with a white supremacists site,


That in itself should give you your answer with reference to this being a migration site, and how at odds that is with the aims of the site.

Sadly those with an agenda to promote or encourage such things will not just politely ‘follow rules’ or moderate their content/comment or sources they share or post, which tarnish your sites.

Those types of things are not a matter of decorum but clear agendas to spread propaganda. So the issue with that you’d have would be different from just ‘banter’, and should be tackled accordingly.

Look into the legal basis of a zero tolerance approach to that - keywords, banned URLs, (DFAT, May be a start), white/black listing - (before anyone goes off, in IT those two are security terms, to ensure desired content/links are allowed through and undesirable content/links to such propaganda sites is automatically barred. Not sure about extending this to the web/ chat forum but I’d imagine it’s possible.
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Thanks for the suggestions so far (and there are some good ones - so thank you). 
CTF was created to for all the topics that didn't fit into other parts of the forum and 2nd to the migration visa sections is the most used sub forum.  It used to be really quite a fun, lighthearted part of the forum  and Cal and I (as the main moderators of CTF), don't want to get rid of it altogether but it has to change.
  We will be  looking at some of the solutions you've suggested (and asked for other moderator comments) in order to have dialogue with admin.  One of the key themes from this thread is about what's acceptable/unacceptable and having more defined rules so that they can be enforced in a consistent manner - it seems that if we can establish this we might be able to achieve something.  (I also like the idea of a locked political section and would hope that's something that could be trialled).
So rather than start another thread … what do you the membership feel is acceptable/unacceptable content for CTF and what rules would you have.  



That’s all great to hear, but I’d suggest you gets-the feedback you receive with reference to content and rules to a professional (legal and/or brand specialist) to advise you all about, and help you in making your decisions with what ideas/rules.content to take forward/bin.

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But the point is, the mods are volunteers.  Make the job too onerous and those volunteers will decide it's too much work and they can't continue.  Then the whole site loses. 

You might say that the owners will have to stump up for paid moderators - but I suspect that would make the site unviable economically.  

 

 

All understood, but perhaps investing in some advise and other tech options may be more viable longer term, to keep the mods as volunteers and the owners achieving what they want, out of having put time and effort to establish this group of forums on the first place.

 

Obviously priorities change and so on, but then maybe it needs to be looked at in terms of its longer term viability also.

 

Having said all that, it’s obviously at the discretion of the owners.

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2 hours ago, Toots said:

Unbelievable!  

It's not that unbelievable given what's insuated on here on a daily basis and allowed to fester.


"Nationalism is an infantile disease, it is the measles of mankind." Albert Einstein

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Wrong thread.  😊

Edited by Toots

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2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

But the point is, the mods are volunteers.  Make the job too onerous and those volunteers will decide it's too much work and they can't continue.  Then the whole site loses. 

That is what pre-mod is for, and has already been mentioned on the previous page, SImmo is responsible for 90% of trolling and it's got far far worse since he argued his way off premod.

Now the moderators don't have enough time to moderate because the volume of non-helpful posts is so high. The answer isn't difficult to see.

 

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"Nationalism is an infantile disease, it is the measles of mankind." Albert Einstein

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