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ali

CTF - what's the solution

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I honestly do not see what all the fuss is about......there are numerous sections to contribute in various different ways.....if you want to help someone moving to Canberra then just go to that part of the site (like I did earlier today)......if you want a bit of a giggle and to blow off some steam then you go to CTF......not difficult......not hard.....its common sense really......If I felt as strongly about getting rid of CTF as some have professed I would just not come on here anymore......sorry but I am struggling to understand the problem with posters wanting it closed.....I can appreciate the moderating issues tho and have some sympathy......I don't honestly know what the answer is .....if an answer is even required......

Edited by kungfustu
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an interesting and topical thread on twitter that touches on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think you also need to consider that this type of debate is isolated predominantly to CTF.....do you want it to spread to other parts of the forum because that could happen If CTF is closed......

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A politics sub-forum? It's an unusually dynamic time in politics and people have strong views on both sides. Perhaps keeping CTF for other topical issues, but directing political discourse to a sub-forum would ring fence some of the more robust discussions.

I see a lot of comments about it being banter, but it's not always the case. Yesterday there were insults directed at someone's family which for me crosses a line, no matter the reason. 

I would adopt a zero tolerance approach to personal attacks, insults, racism, religious bigotry etc. I'm not suggesting this is a regular thing on the forum, or that any posters do this. But given we are all opposed to these things, it should be easy to support strong action against it, should it occur.

This would still place the burden on the moderators, but perhaps make it easier to direct Respectful political discourse to the politics sub-forum. If any new posters signed up and evidenced racist insults, personal attacks or insults etc then a single strike policy flowed by a long ban should do the trick. If it's really about banter and debate then this shouldn't be problematic for anyone, not diminish the lively nature of CTF

 

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:evilface_frowning_s

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47 minutes ago, simmo said:

The sad thing is that it is obvious where this will end up.  I find it very sad that it has come to this.  Not just PIO but in general.  People think they have a god given right not to be offended or have their views challenged.   I despair at the way the world turned out like this - they have won 😞  This forum will be closed and the perpetually offended can go back to their world of bland and make themselves a nice cup of camomile tea in celebration.  Woop woop!! 

 

I think all my points are indeed proven m'lud.

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51 minutes ago, kungfustu said:

 

9 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

A politics sub-forum? It's an unusually dynamic time in politics and people have strong views on both sides. Perhaps keeping CTF for other topical issues, but directing political discourse to a sub-forum would ring fence some of the more robust discussions.

I see a lot of comments about it being banter, but it's not always the case. Yesterday there were insults directed at someone's family which for me crosses a line, no matter the reason. 

I would adopt a zero tolerance approach to personal attacks, insults, racism, religious bigotry etc. I'm not suggesting this is a regular thing on the forum, or that any posters do this. But given we are all opposed to these things, it should be easy to support strong action against it, should it occur.

This would still place the burden on the moderators, but perhaps make it easier to direct Respectful political discourse to the politics sub-forum. If any new posters signed up and evidenced racist insults, personal attacks or insults etc then a single strike policy flowed by a long ban should do the trick. If it's really about banter and debate then this shouldn't be problematic for anyone, not diminish the lively nature of CTF

 

Very well put.

Edited by BacktoDemocracy

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1 hour ago, simmo said:

remove the report button form CTF then the whingers won't be able to bother the mods.  I agree with @newjez this is not anywhere as bad as most forums.  You should go on musnet at wine o'clock !!!!

Some people just want a serile world where no one is exposed to differing opinions or views that challenge their world view.  

I appeal to the mods and admin! please don't let the dog wag the tail and let the legendary CTF become a victim of woke victimhood and faux outrage.

Just had an idea.!!!  why dont you have an RDO? the last friday (or monday) of every month shut CTF down for 24 hours?  It will give the mods a break and the trolls/whingers time to reflect.

 

yes that!!! 

 

1 hour ago, simmo said:

The sad thing is that it is obvious where this will end up.  I find it very sad that it has come to this.  Not just PIO but in general.  People think they have a god given right not to be offended or have their views challenged.   I despair at the way the world turned out like this - they have won 😞  This forum will be closed and the perpetually offended can go back to their world of bland and make themselves a nice cup of camomile tea in celebration.  Woop woop!! 

 

 

1 hour ago, kungfustu said:

I don't use the site that much......I have spells when I am on it constantly and then I put it down for a few weeks or months......I think you all need to be aware that any action provokes a reaction.....you all know this and attempts to claim the moral high ground are just laughable to say the least......the best form of censorship is the on/off button.....if you don't like it then don't read it.....thats not that difficult to grasp......it never helps the cause tho when certain posters seem to think they are more intelligent than anyone else and therefore their view carries more weight......the constant labelling that has been present on the forum for the past 3 years.....thick....racist.....nationalist.....misogynist.....I suppose if others were more open to alternative opinions then maybe they would not be so quick to label......its just sh@t stirring......everyone's guilty so please spare us the sob story hate speech rubbish......incidentally.....you spelt speach  wrong......having been corrected and ridiculed so many times over the years by the grammar policeman......the irony is not lost on me......

Well I think that these are classic examples of the accusatory  posts complete with incendiary language that are made almost daily along with the procession of laughing faces, I think the mods can verify that I report very few posts and I can't be responsible for other peoples beliefs based around their own assumptions.

 

So here we have it, even when I try to be accommodating and compromising I am accused of wanting to curtail free speech and being abusive, well it seems obvious, you have three choices

Have CTF as a free for all and allow racism, rampant nationalism, misogyny and sexism to be posted under the pretence of free speech and 'banter', which is fine but the posters of all that will have to live with being confronted about those behaviours when others find them offensive, quite happy with that but cries of snowflake and 'woke' might elicit very robust responses.

Introduce some clearer set of rules which define hate speech and put some limits on what can be considered free speech and impose some lengthy bans when the rules are broken

Or just call it quits and accept that bullying works and close it

 

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1 hour ago, simmo said:

an interesting and topical thread on twitter that touches on this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note the last paragraph

Quote

The College of Policing’s guidance defines a transgender hate incident as “any non-crime incident which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender”.

In a ruling on Friday, the high court in London found the actions of Humberside police were a “disproportionate interference” with Miller’s right to freedom of expression.

But Mr Justice Julian Knowles rejected a wider challenge to the lawfulness of the College of Police guidance, ruling that it “serves legitimate purposes and is not disproportionate”.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/14/transgender-tweet-police-acted-unlawfully

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close CTF and its the end of an era , you will loose some great and strong characters......I really cant se the point of it …...but if you do , leave if for long enough so we can have time to catch up and stay in contact in other ways ….I for one don't want to loose contact with a good few on here …... 

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Voted Best Newcomer 2010 by PIO Members.......Thank you....x

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I think you also need to consider that this type of debate is isolated predominantly to CTF.....do you want it to spread to other parts of the forum because that could happen If CTF is closed......
Exactly pal.......
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Voted Best Newcomer 2010 by PIO Members.......Thank you....x

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2 hours ago, simmo said:

The sad thing is that it is obvious where this will end up.  I find it very sad that it has come to this.  Not just PIO but in general.  People think they have a god given right not to be offended or have their views challenged.   I despair at the way the world turned out like this - they have won 😞  This forum will be closed and the perpetually offended can go back to their world of bland and make themselves a nice cup of camomile tea in celebration.  Woop woop!! 

 

And let us consider what seem to be eminently liberal views expressed as if you are open to persuasion and consideration of the value of thought thro arguments and how all these people who cannot bear to consider other viewpoints try to restrict your freedoms of speech, action and thought. Lets just consider that proposition, when have you ever put forward any set of arguments to show that your thoughts are actually credible thoughts that you can actually defend, it seems that your contributions are limited to criticising anything put forward by anybody else as an infringement of your right to hold some set of beliefs which you have never actually divulged but which you always maintain are being infringed , thereby always making yourself out to be the victim of some kind of liberal socialist conspiracy.

If your views are not inimical to the general consensus of democracy and treating people as equals then it should be possible for you to argue in favour of your views and win the arguments by force of reason and that applies to a number of other posters but what we always get is the victim card played whenever your arguments or lack of them is demolished.

So we are at the nub of it, either let us know what you actually believe in and have a proper argument about some facts that are held by more than just a few extremists or accept that bullying works and just close this section down because the arguments are just circular and always end up in the same place, negated by intransigence and obduracy.

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2 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

And let us consider what seem to be eminently liberal views expressed as if you are open to persuasion and consideration of the value of thought thro arguments and how all these people who cannot bear to consider other viewpoints try to restrict your freedoms of speech, action and thought. Lets just consider that proposition, when have you ever put forward any set of arguments to show that your thoughts are actually credible thoughts that you can actually defend, it seems that your contributions are limited to criticising anything put forward by anybody else as an infringement of your right to hold some set of beliefs which you have never actually divulged but which you always maintain are being infringed , thereby always making yourself out to be the victim of some kind of liberal socialist conspiracy.

If your views are not inimical to the general consensus of democracy and treating people as equals then it should be possible for you to argue in favour of your views and win the arguments by force of reason and that applies to a number of other posters but what we always get is the victim card played whenever your arguments or lack of them is demolished.

So we are at the nub of it, either let us know what you actually believe in and have a proper argument about some facts that are held by more than just a few extremists or accept that bullying works and just close this section down because the arguments are just circular and always end up in the same place, negated by intransigence and obduracy.

i fell asleep after line 2.  sorry.

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2 hours ago, simmo said:

The sad thing is that it is obvious where this will end up.  I find it very sad that it has come to this.  Not just PIO but in general.  People think they have a god given right not to be offended or have their views challenged.   I despair at the way the world turned out like this - they have won 😞  This forum will be closed and the perpetually offended can go back to their world of bland and make themselves a nice cup of camomile tea in celebration.  Woop woop!! 

 

Some people need to appreciate that we are not in the seventies anymore.

When my elderly relations visit I do expect to listen to racist homophobia etc etc.

If I went to a far right website I would expect to see the same.

But it's not acceptable on a modern migration website.

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1 minute ago, newjez said:

Some people need to appreciate that we are not in the seventies anymore.

When my elderly relations visit I do expect to listen to racist homophobia etc etc.

If I went to a far right website I would expect to see the same.

But it's not acceptable on a modern migration website.

did i miss enoch powell's posts?  Seriously either all the racist stuff has been deleted or am i missing something?

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I fell a sleep after And..........

i fell asleep after line 2.  sorry.
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Voted Best Newcomer 2010 by PIO Members.......Thank you....x

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Ali isn't asking whether people want to keep CTF as how people feel about this section of the forum isn't the issue, it's the unmanageable amount of work created for the mods that is unacceptable. Removing the report button might reduce their need for input but allowing threads to disintegrate into cyber bullying and worse would inevitably change the general atmosphere of the site. For different reasons the same could be said about closing CTF, as PIO would simply become a migration Q&A forum and the friendly community who visit threads such as IKNWC etc would probably disintegrate.

I'm not sure there is a simple answer but I remember similar problems years ago in relation to MBTTUK and one of the main reasons I joined PIO was to offer support to pingpongers on the receiving end of scathing and patronising criticism. Things got so bad that for a while a private section was set up but ultimately it was no longer needed, and thankfully MBTTUK seems a lot more civilised these days.

But I wonder if this approach might work again? i.e. move a complained about thread to a private section and anyone who wants to continue to read or contribute to it must either be a member of the exiled thread section, or apply to become a member? Other than that I have no idea as people will always disagree, some more loudly than others and often without filters of any kind. T x 

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6 hours ago, newjez said:

I used to use Australian property forum. (Now that place has some trolls. Makes CTF look like play school)

They had the actual forum, and then they had a lounge forum, which was similar to CTF.

If CTF was moved into a sub forum, which you had to switch to, then it could be kept separate from the migration stuff.

Any threads started in the migration thread which went bad could be moved to CTF.

Most people on here just search on activity. So, you wouldn't see ctf threads unless you were on CTF.

Allow people to report any hate crime stuff on CTF, but let people banter with each other.

I thought PIO was set up like that a while ago.

People only had access to CTF if they asked for it so people accessing the migration parts of the forum were oblivious to it.

I think that was a good solution. People could opt in or opt out to CTF as they wished.

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I want it all, and I want it now.

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4 hours ago, simmo said:

The sad thing is that it is obvious where this will end up.  I find it very sad that it has come to this.  Not just PIO but in general.  People think they have a god given right not to be offended or have their views challenged.   I despair at the way the world turned out like this - they have won 😞  This forum will be closed and the perpetually offended can go back to their world of bland and make themselves a nice cup of camomile tea in celebration.  Woop woop!! 

 

Don't worry. Kate will never close down CTF.

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I want it all, and I want it now.

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The mods could always give up their roles if they find it too arduous and give someone else a go who wants to do it.


I want it all, and I want it now.

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Easily fixed.

Poms only

Poms actually in Australia as per forum description, not poms who weren’t up to it and left.

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2 hours ago, simmo said:

i fell asleep after line 2.  sorry.

Shall I shorten it then.

Stop pratting about and start participating in an intelligent manner and stop just trying to show that you are smarter and  able to be more obnoxious than anyone else.

Is that clearer and more accessible.

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9 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Shall I shorten it then.

Stop pratting about and start participating in an intelligent manner and stop just trying to show that you are smarter and  able to be more obnoxious than anyone else.

Is that clearer and more accessible.

I don't think any of us really want CTF to close do we ?

Even the people who suggest it would have just left ages ago if they didn't like it. They complain but they keep posting in CTF.

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I want it all, and I want it now.

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24 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Shall I shorten it then.

Stop pratting about and start participating in an intelligent manner and stop just trying to show that you are smarter and  able to be more obnoxious than anyone else.

Is that clearer and more accessible.

Charming

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6 hours ago, simmo said:

The sad thing is that it is obvious where this will end up.  I find it very sad that it has come to this.  Not just PIO but in general.  People think they have a god given right not to be offended or have their views challenged.   I despair at the way the world turned out like this - they have won 😞  This forum will be closed and the perpetually offended can go back to their world of bland and make themselves a nice cup of camomile tea in celebration.  Woop woop!! 

 

Personally I am with you, Newjez and Tonyman on this subject.

I have never reported a single post to the mods.  I think many are far too over-sensitive.

For instance I fully understand that you are a bit of a sh*t-stirrer but there is a strong undercurrent of humour in it.

Threads do go ‘off the rails’ invariably but, like the Brexit thread, often find their equilibrium again once some new information comes to light.

I can well imagine though that actually having to read, delete and respond to these threads must be tiresome and it doesn’t actually add anything to the core value of the site itself so fully understand the rationale to ‘kill’ it.

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