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Phoenix16

So has Nursing finally gone the other way?

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https://www.bedfordhospitalnursing.co.uk/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=13497+Perth&utm_campaign=Talk+to+us+about+your+perfect+role.&utm_content=13497+Perth&fbclid=IwAR0CGYdeEkA3oPNVUeLkeX_iy4vt19ufVy30xwYAaBqlz_TYjZDhln9bYhU

So last year we had Scotland recruiting grads and now we have Bedfordshire recruiting grads.... When I enquired on here a year or so ago about going back to the UK to gain experience (in complete desperation of NO opportunities here) I was promptly told I could not get registered in the UK without at least 12 months experience.  Has that all changed now? The NHS are seriously recruiting over here where we have a surplus of qualified nurses (or rather a large pool of nurses who can't find jobs despite the increasing demands on health care as people live longer and chronic disease increases....I know, budget restrictions...).  On a personal level, I have now managed to bag myself a grad program and I am incredibly excited but I can't help but think about all of those grad nurses I competed against, it is incredibly tough right now.   It would lead me to my next question, should Australia still be granting visa's to nurses when there is such surplus, and well trained  'stock' here? I do understand unique specialisms being in demand but I'm even questioning that at times, many of my 2017 cohort are already part way through their masters in their various specialisms.... I think there is so much talent already here in Australia, I do firmly believe its NOW time to close the door and focus on the home grown talents here xxxxxxx

 

Edited by Phoenix16

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4 hours ago, Phoenix16 said:

https://www.bedfordhospitalnursing.co.uk/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=13497+Perth&utm_campaign=Talk+to+us+about+your+perfect+role.&utm_content=13497+Perth&fbclid=IwAR0CGYdeEkA3oPNVUeLkeX_iy4vt19ufVy30xwYAaBqlz_TYjZDhln9bYhU

So last year we had Scotland recruiting grads and now we have Bedfordshire recruiting grads.... When I enquired on here a year or so ago about going back to the UK to gain experience (in complete desperation of NO opportunities here) I was promptly told I could not get registered in the UK without at least 12 months experience.  Has that all changed now? The NHS are seriously recruiting over here where we have a surplus of qualified nurses (or rather a large pool of nurses who can't find jobs despite the increasing demands on health care as people live longer and chronic disease increases....I know, budget restrictions...).  On a personal level, I have now managed to bag myself a grad program and I am incredibly excited but I can't help but think about all of those grad nurses I competed against, it is incredibly tough right now.   It would lead me to my next question, should Australia still be granting visa's to nurses when there is such surplus, and well trained  'stock' here? I do understand unique specialisms being in demand but I'm even questioning that at times, many of my 2017 cohort are already part way through their masters in their various specialisms.... I think there is so much talent already here in Australia, I do firmly believe its NOW time to close the door and focus on the home grown talents here xxxxxxx

 

The Australian visa system has become a way of keeping wages down, it used to be about protectionism but my belief is it is just being used to keep the economy going by bringing extra consumers in and at the same time control wage demands, nothing to do with with responding to worker shortages..

Also everywwhere is trying to get workers at cheaper and cheaper rates and socially orientated work is no exception, push up qualification levels whilst knowing that funding will be cut.

Cynical or true?

Edited by BacktoDemocracy
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On 10/09/2019 at 01:49, BacktoDemocracy said:

The Australian visa system has become a way of keeping wages down, it used to be about protectionism but my belief is it is just being used to keep the economy going by bringing extra consumers in and at the same time control wage demands, nothing to do with with responding to worker shortages..

Also everywwhere is trying to get workers at cheaper and cheaper rates and socially orientated work is no exception, push up qualification levels whilst knowing that funding will be cut.

Cynical or true?

Im not sure about your comments re nursing!! As a grad nurse the pay is pretty good in comparison to the UK but its all relative to the cost of living I suppose...my point was bringing nurses over expecting plentiful jobs when nurses here can't get jobs or at the very least secure jobs, everything seems to be casual, temporary and part time only.

 

Anyway, you have got me thinking about my current job.. pretty low level government job, but interesting to me, I enjoy it! But.. I work in a team of 3 covering 2 FTE roles part time.  the job is 8.30-4.30 and works beautifully. I'm an early bird, I love early mornings, my routine (school bus drop off schedule) means im usually at work for 7.45 -8am, I love this early time to grab a coffee, check emails and prepare well for my 8.30am start, it suits my family commitments and i'm happy to get a heads up early so I can plan my day effectively to leave on time at 4.30pm which also suits my family commitments. My colleague, however, is usually there at 7.30am and doesn't leave until around 5 to 5.30pm although she is only paid from 8.30 to 4.30.  the workload does not warrant this, I never ever leave work over to the next day, all of my tasks are completed by the time I leave, we share the roles on alternate days so I also know that her workload does not warrant the hours she puts in.   I cannot understand what work demands are warranting these hours from her, the workload simply is not there, but it is making me feel very uncomfortable in that is it making me look less committed?? I work efficiently, I deliver a great deal in the hours I am paid and I complete everything and more, nothing is ever left over and I always go above and beyond, I have testimonials from colleagues to attest to this.  I feel guilty leaving at 4.40/4.40 whatever time I leave even though I know all of my work is done and I would simply be killing time by staying, is this the pressure now to keep us in line? I have to say my managers don't make me feel pressured but it does frustrate me that they also don'y question why my colleague is doing this? surely they would think 'hang on a minute, she's working at least 2 hours a day unpaid' (for no reason)? 

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1 hour ago, Phoenix16 said:

Im not sure about your comments re nursing!! As a grad nurse the pay is pretty good in comparison to the UK but its all relative to the cost of living I suppose...my point was bringing nurses over expecting plentiful jobs when nurses here can't get jobs or at the very least secure jobs, everything seems to be casual, temporary and part time only.

 

Anyway, you have got me thinking about my current job.. pretty low level government job, but interesting to me, I enjoy it! But.. I work in a team of 3 covering 2 FTE roles part time.  the job is 8.30-4.30 and works beautifully. I'm an early bird, I love early mornings, my routine (school bus drop off schedule) means im usually at work for 7.45 -8am, I love this early time to grab a coffee, check emails and prepare well for my 8.30am start, it suits my family commitments and i'm happy to get a heads up early so I can plan my day effectively to leave on time at 4.30pm which also suits my family commitments. My colleague, however, is usually there at 7.30am and doesn't leave until around 5 to 5.30pm although she is only paid from 8.30 to 4.30.  the workload does not warrant this, I never ever leave work over to the next day, all of my tasks are completed by the time I leave, we share the roles on alternate days so I also know that her workload does not warrant the hours she puts in.   I cannot understand what work demands are warranting these hours from her, the workload simply is not there, but it is making me feel very uncomfortable in that is it making me look less committed?? I work efficiently, I deliver a great deal in the hours I am paid and I complete everything and more, nothing is ever left over and I always go above and beyond, I have testimonials from colleagues to attest to this.  I feel guilty leaving at 4.40/4.40 whatever time I leave even though I know all of my work is done and I would simply be killing time by staying, is this the pressure now to keep us in line? I have to say my managers don't make me feel pressured but it does frustrate me that they also don'y question why my colleague is doing this? surely they would think 'hang on a minute, she's working at least 2 hours a day unpaid' (for no reason)? 

I recognise nursing is reasonably well paid but if there are all those spare people queuing up for jobs there is no real pressures on bosses to put wages up is there

As regards your co worker, this is commonplace action by some, here and particularly in Australia or at least we felt, its called presenteeism or making your self look indispensable and is to impress bosses with their commitment and to show how hard the work is and how difficult it is to get thro it all in the hours allotted, my wife was a boss in Australia and she could never get to the bottom of why work which could be done in a morning took all day and beyond and was a constant feature of staff with unique job functions or expertise. Well that was her experience! and I saw it as well in my short working life there. 

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On 09/09/2019 at 23:44, Phoenix16 said:

When I enquired on here a year or so ago about going back to the UK to gain experience (in complete desperation of NO opportunities here) I was promptly told I could not get registered in the UK without at least 12 months experience.  Has that all changed now? 

They are desperate for staff.  My mother has just received an urgent consultant letter that has taken 6 weeks to arrive because the secretarial team of 4 is being manned by 1 person.  It took them 9 months to diagnose her cancer and begin treatment, there was disjointment between different specialisms, inexplicable waiting times for scans, missed blood information,  scheduled appointments that were never made, locums being parachuted in from 100 miles away, and a severe lack of nurses, lots of whom have returned to the EU in growing numbers over the last 2 years.

The actual staff have been fantastic, as always, but there just aren't enough of them to cope with the demand, and this has been ideologically driven by an austerity Government, and now practically driven by an unfriendly Brexit environment making staff who happen to come from an EU country suffer from job uncertainty and feeling of being unwelcome from a country that has rejected them.  Economically, the falling pound makes the job less beneficial.

Just in Mental Health, 6800 staff have been lost between 2008 and 2018,  numbers of doctors in specialist training have fallen by 20%, 70% of people waiting for treatment get significantly worse beforea delayed treatment can start, there has been a 47% increase in sectioning under the MH ACT over the last 10 years, 100,000 staff vacancies in each of NHS and social care alone. Everybody probably knows somebody who has committed suicide.....I know 3 in the last 12 months, all males between 40 and 55.  These are dreadful figures befitting a country with a serious identity problem and failing social, behavioural and procedural standards.

Just in the field of doctoring and nursing, their own staff support networks have been inundated because of the knock-on effect of under resourcing and their own feelings of being unable to cope.   The mean age of staff referrals for "on the job" mental health assistance has dropped from 50yrs old to 30yrs old, and 70% of these staff are female.  

There are opportunities, but there are reasons for vacancies.....I'd do the research first, and remember the postcode lottery.  SOme places are far better served than others, usually in the South of the UK, or Scotland.

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59 minutes ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

They are desperate for staff.  My mother has just received an urgent consultant letter that has taken 6 weeks to arrive because the secretarial team of 4 is being manned by 1 person.  It took them 9 months to diagnose her cancer and begin treatment, there was disjointment between different specialisms, inexplicable waiting times for scans, missed blood information,  scheduled appointments that were never made, locums being parachuted in from 100 miles away, and a severe lack of nurses, lots of whom have returned to the EU in growing numbers over the last 2 years.

The actual staff have been fantastic, as always, but there just aren't enough of them to cope with the demand, and this has been ideologically driven by an austerity Government, and now practically driven by an unfriendly Brexit environment making staff who happen to come from an EU country suffer from job uncertainty and feeling of being unwelcome from a country that has rejected them.  Economically, the falling pound makes the job less beneficial.

Just in Mental Health, 6800 staff have been lost between 2008 and 2018,  numbers of doctors in specialist training have fallen by 20%, 70% of people waiting for treatment get significantly worse beforea delayed treatment can start, there has been a 47% increase in sectioning under the MH ACT over the last 10 years, 100,000 staff vacancies in each of NHS and social care alone. Everybody probably knows somebody who has committed suicide.....I know 3 in the last 12 months, all males between 40 and 55.  These are dreadful figures befitting a country with a serious identity problem and failing social, behavioural and procedural standards.

Just in the field of doctoring and nursing, their own staff support networks have been inundated because of the knock-on effect of under resourcing and their own feelings of being unable to cope.   The mean age of staff referrals for "on the job" mental health assistance has dropped from 50yrs old to 30yrs old, and 70% of these staff are female.  

There are opportunities, but there are reasons for vacancies.....I'd do the research first, and remember the postcode lottery.  SOme places are far better served than others, usually in the South of the UK, or Scotland.

Don't  mention brexit, its all fine, nothing to do with anything.......................😤

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6 hours ago, Phoenix16 said:

Im not sure about your comments re nursing!! As a grad nurse the pay is pretty good in comparison to the UK but its all relative to the cost of living I suppose...my point was bringing nurses over expecting plentiful jobs when nurses here can't get jobs or at the very least secure jobs, everything seems to be casual, temporary and part time only.

 

Anyway, you have got me thinking about my current job.. pretty low level government job, but interesting to me, I enjoy it! But.. I work in a team of 3 covering 2 FTE roles part time.  the job is 8.30-4.30 and works beautifully. I'm an early bird, I love early mornings, my routine (school bus drop off schedule) means im usually at work for 7.45 -8am, I love this early time to grab a coffee, check emails and prepare well for my 8.30am start, it suits my family commitments and i'm happy to get a heads up early so I can plan my day effectively to leave on time at 4.30pm which also suits my family commitments. My colleague, however, is usually there at 7.30am and doesn't leave until around 5 to 5.30pm although she is only paid from 8.30 to 4.30.  the workload does not warrant this, I never ever leave work over to the next day, all of my tasks are completed by the time I leave, we share the roles on alternate days so I also know that her workload does not warrant the hours she puts in.   I cannot understand what work demands are warranting these hours from her, the workload simply is not there, but it is making me feel very uncomfortable in that is it making me look less committed?? I work efficiently, I deliver a great deal in the hours I am paid and I complete everything and more, nothing is ever left over and I always go above and beyond, I have testimonials from colleagues to attest to this.  I feel guilty leaving at 4.40/4.40 whatever time I leave even though I know all of my work is done and I would simply be killing time by staying, is this the pressure now to keep us in line? I have to say my managers don't make me feel pressured but it does frustrate me that they also don'y question why my colleague is doing this? surely they would think 'hang on a minute, she's working at least 2 hours a day unpaid' (for no reason)? 

Your colleague may just like the peace and quiet and may be doing some study (I have a colleague who used to come in early to do that).  I'm someone who is in an hour early - it gives me an opportunity to answer emails, update rosters, work on presentations/reports without being interrupted by staff or calls from clients.  In honesty though, you wouldn't know (unless she told you) if your colleague had been spoken to as to why she comes in early (if it was a problem) as it would be a confidential process/conversation between them and the line manager.  There may not be any sinister motives in her arriving early e.g. to make you look bad it may just be her preference.  As a line manager, I have staff who come in early and some who come in on the dot, some have negotiated slightly later start/finish times (within our operational hours) to drop off/collect children I just see it as their preference and don't have issue with it.

I don't think there is a reduced need for nurses, we don't for example offer sponsorship to overseas nurses now and vacancies are becoming fewer and not being filled as quickly.  We recently advertised a level 1 position in community mental health and got over 50 applicants with most of them being graduates but we were unable to fill the position due to lack of experience in our speciality. 


I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

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1 hour ago, ali said:

Your colleague may just like the peace and quiet and may be doing some study (I have a colleague who used to come in early to do that). 

They also may have shockingly bad time management skills, or be not as good at their job as the OP.

Who knows?

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8 hours ago, unzippy said:

They also may have shockingly bad time management skills, or be not as good at their job as the OP.

Who knows?

I do think there are some time management issues that need to be looked at and a new manager recently alluded to this, however, I do feel disingenuous by my comments as I will say my colleague is very passionate about the work we do and really cares about her work (as we all do of course). I do not think she is trying to deliberately make me look less committed at all, I think there are some insecurity issues and I think it’s also a case of just not being able to ‘let go’, she often emails in on her days off with pointers and minor things she forgot to handover, that’s a nice trait but as our role is at the bottom of the ‘pecking order’ within the organisation her work life balance is paramount in my view.    I have been in senior roles where a commitment beyond 9/5 is imperative and goes without saying but the financial rewards compensate for this. And in those roles I would have spotted situations like this, my priority managing many staff was their work life balance and being aware of their workload demands, if I saw staff still working way beyond their finish time I would want to know why to ensure we were not under resourced and as such ‘exploiting’ dedicated staff, or maybe to identify inefficiencies in working processes that could be improved.  I also have a work ethos where if something important happens that requires me to stay back and deal with the issue then that also goes without saying and the organisation has a process to recognise and compensate for this.  Ordinarily the workload is such that it can all be easily completed within contracted hours, however for my own personal reasons and circumstances I do generally arrive around 30 minutes early and I love this quiet time to have a coffee while checking emails and planning/anticipating the day ahead and the priorities I need to focus on.  I wasn’t having a pop at my colleague I was really just musing over comments raised by back to democracy!

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And I also realise other factors can be at play such as ‘my lift home won’t he here until 5.30 / my bus doesn’t leave until 5 etc so I thought I’d stay in the office and get things organised for tomorrow’ all normal and reasonable but I know that’s not the case here.

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For some their work is their life and they prefer being at work to being at home. I have come across this quite a bit in my working life, especially some of those who live alone and/or have had a relationship break up.

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11 hours ago, ali said:

Your colleague may just like the peace and quiet and may be doing some study (I have a colleague who used to come in early to do that).  I'm someone who is in an hour early - it gives me an opportunity to answer emails, update rosters, work on presentations/reports without being interrupted by staff or calls from clients.  In honesty though, you wouldn't know (unless she told you) if your colleague had been spoken to as to why she comes in early (if it was a problem) as it would be a confidential process/conversation between them and the line manager.  There may not be any sinister motives in her arriving early e.g. to make you look bad it may just be her preference.  As a line manager, I have staff who come in early and some who come in on the dot, some have negotiated slightly later start/finish times (within our operational hours) to drop off/collect children I just see it as their preference and don't have issue with it.

I don't think there is a reduced need for nurses, we don't for example offer sponsorship to overseas nurses now and vacancies are becoming fewer and not being filled as quickly.  We recently advertised a level 1 position in community mental health and got over 50 applicants with most of them being graduates but we were unable to fill the position due to lack of experience in our speciality. 

I totally take on board your points, there are some dynamics at play that lead me to my conclusion, however, I have said in a previous post that I don’t believe it’s being done deliberately  to make me look less committed and perhaps that’s my own insecurities for seeing it that way! Basically we deliver a fabulous service, some more efficiently than others and unfortunately for me my background in senior management makes me think strategically, I am always looking for more efficient ways of doing things and that’s how I plan my work (PS I’m not currently working in health care, I know there are strict protocols in how we care for patients and I’m not comparing my current role to that which is entirely different!).  However, I will make the point that in my previous life as a senior corporate manager I put my staffs work life balance as a priority, flexible hours to fulfil school pick ups and drop off where we could or many various other scenarios such as urgent appointments etc were all accommodated where possible  within the needs to also deliver the business.  anxious staff worrying were less productive than happy staff who were not worrying.   I was reacting to Backtodemocracys points about employers continually striving to get more for less and in the corporate world that is very true.

in terms of 50 applicants, most being graduates and none successful, what a shame! Maybe one of them could have actually blown you away after a little bit of initial support and mentoring! Tongue in cheek as I’m sure you will come back with the depth and knowledge the job needed that a grad could never fulfil, but if we do invest in local talent and support them, perhaps they could quite quickly become your organisations  best assets.

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3 minutes ago, Phoenix16 said:

I totally take on board your points, there are some dynamics at play that lead me to my conclusion, however, I have said in a previous post that I don’t believe it’s being done deliberately  to make me look less committed and perhaps that’s my own insecurities for seeing it that way! Basically we deliver a fabulous service, some more efficiently than others and unfortunately for me my background in senior management makes me think strategically, I am always looking for more efficient ways of doing things and that’s how I plan my work (PS I’m not currently working in health care, I know there are strict protocols in how we care for patients and I’m not comparing my current role to that which is entirely different!).  However, I will make the point that in my previous life as a senior corporate manager I put my staffs work life balance as a priority, flexible hours to fulfil school pick ups and drop off where we could or many various other scenarios such as urgent appointments etc were all accommodated where possible  within the needs to also deliver the business.  anxious staff worrying were less productive than happy staff who were not worrying.   I was reacting to Backtodemocracys points about employers continually striving to get more for less and in the corporate world that is very true.

in terms of 50 applicants, most being graduates and none successful, what a shame! Maybe one of them could have actually blown you away after a little bit of initial support and mentoring! Tongue in cheek as I’m sure you will come back with the depth and knowledge the job needed that a grad could never fulfil, but if we do invest in local talent and support them, perhaps they could quite quickly become your organisations  best assets, it was only level 1 after all....

 

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1 hour ago, Phoenix16 said:

I totally take on board your points, there are some dynamics at play that lead me to my conclusion, however, I have said in a previous post that I don’t believe it’s being done deliberately  to make me look less committed and perhaps that’s my own insecurities for seeing it that way! Basically we deliver a fabulous service, some more efficiently than others and unfortunately for me my background in senior management makes me think strategically, I am always looking for more efficient ways of doing things and that’s how I plan my work (PS I’m not currently working in health care, I know there are strict protocols in how we care for patients and I’m not comparing my current role to that which is entirely different!).  However, I will make the point that in my previous life as a senior corporate manager I put my staffs work life balance as a priority, flexible hours to fulfil school pick ups and drop off where we could or many various other scenarios such as urgent appointments etc were all accommodated where possible  within the needs to also deliver the business.  anxious staff worrying were less productive than happy staff who were not worrying.   I was reacting to Backtodemocracys points about employers continually striving to get more for less and in the corporate world that is very true.

in terms of 50 applicants, most being graduates and none successful, what a shame! Maybe one of them could have actually blown you away after a little bit of initial support and mentoring! Tongue in cheek as I’m sure you will come back with the depth and knowledge the job needed that a grad could never fulfil, but if we do invest in local talent and support them, perhaps they could quite quickly become your organisations  best assets.

I agree about the graduates and if this was a position on the ward then it's certainly worth considering a new grad.  Our position is a little unique in that normally all positions in our CMHT's our CN's - but we have an RN position (who would have the opportunity to act up into a L2 position).   It's not necessarily about depth and knowledge - but at interview you need to be able to answer the questions in a way that demonstrates your  suitability against the selection criteria.  You're hoping that the candidate will mention  key elements such as MSE, risk, de-escalation and safe administration of medication. 

ETA - many applicants fail to get short listed due to not addressing the selection criteria at all and the evidence isn't available within their CV's.

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I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

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On 12/09/2019 at 19:51, ali said:

I agree about the graduates and if this was a position on the ward then it's certainly worth considering a new grad.  Our position is a little unique in that normally all positions in our CMHT's our CN's - but we have an RN position (who would have the opportunity to act up into a L2 position).   It's not necessarily about depth and knowledge - but at interview you need to be able to answer the questions in a way that demonstrates your  suitability against the selection criteria.  You're hoping that the candidate will mention  key elements such as MSE, risk, de-escalation and safe administration of medication. 

ETA - many applicants fail to get short listed due to not addressing the selection criteria at all and the evidence isn't available within their CV's.

I completely agree about SC, it is so incredibly important that you nail it, I have learned that the hard way!!  It is a complete pain doing SC but once you get you’re head around how you need to write it and what you need to say and demonstrate  it’s not as arduous as it feels initially! It’s a great opportunity for the applicant to showcase their skills and experience very succinctly and from my past life as an employer, it cuts out the need to trawl through pages and pages of CV’s, cover letters etc to try to find the info you’re looking for!  SC is the downfall of many a candidate!! Xx

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