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Australia and Climate Change

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4 hours ago, newjez said:

Not directly no.

But it does highlight some of the issues faced with fuel reduction.

You do need a good idea of what lives in the bush you are going to burn.

Or else you could cook a lot of koalas or other endangered vulnerable species.

Not directly? 
nothing what so ever , 

They have been killed by too much logging companies need better work methods to ensure it doesn’t happen or better still don’t cut the trees down. 

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So what is your suggestion then? All the countries which buy goods from China should cancel their orders unless China can confirm they are manufactured using renewable power?
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why "per capita" is so important when calculating a country"s contribution to climate change? Australia produces 1.5 per cent. End of.



The explanations are already there - so you will be waiting a very very long time, if you are still waiting.

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One of the big, big problems is the short time we have measured the climate. The world is old- but our science is new and we really shouldn't draw conclusions in our short lifetimes. We are conceited and arrogant to think that we can. Just trends and popular ideas- like the hole in the ozone layer was. I often think the Aboriginals have more clues than we do because their history is a lot longer than ours.



The time we have measured climate effects is not short. Just like rings in a tree and their characteristics, are used to measure age/health of trees/forest etc. scientists have ways to do similar with ice bore holes, glaciers and much more to get a very good idea about:

1) Climate shifts through the millennia
2) Events that led to climate shifts
3) Factors that contribute to the climate shifts at a biological, chemical and physical level
3) corroborate and predict based on the vast historic record they have gathered, and recent events


The thing is science is not a binary thing, thankfully but the nay sayers like to work that way, and people jump on the band wagon.
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Fuel reduction is the major issue and what Aborigines did for centuries.
This will all come out in the Royal Commission. It won't totally prevent fires of course but they will be a lot less destructive.



Yet climate has an effect on fuel reduction. The longer and more things dry, due to drought, no rain, warmer temperatures - all things that are bro g affected by climate change. The more severe bush fires will occur with greater frequency, how r we much fuel you reduce.

Fuel reduction is a tactic, to address an issue, but it is not the reason. I’d take my information from the scientists and the experienced experts who manage forests and fires as their day job, over some political or journalist loudmouth mouthpiece- in hock with big money.

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The fuel and intensity makes them uncontrollable.
 



And with climate change those factors will continue to intensify, how much tactical reduction/other burning is carried out.

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I’ve seen fire like a snake going through the bush, the crown fires often coming a bit later or all at the same time. No rhyme nor reason. It hides and smoulders for days sometimes and suddenly starts up again with a gust of wind. I hope if they have another of these royal commissions they get people from the bush on it and not townies pontificating.



The bush people , fires experts, forest experts, in the main don’t counter the townies. The reason being the townies tend to listen to those very experts, who know their onions, since it’s their bread and butter.

So yes, let’s have any Royal Commission represented by those very same people who are dealing with the very real issues on the ground right now.

I hope it doesn’t turn into an opportunity to scape goat them, which wouldn’t somehow surprise me.

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Not directly no.
But it does highlight some of the issues faced with fuel reduction.
You do need a good idea of what lives in the bush you are going to burn.
Or else you could cook a lot of koalas or other endangered vulnerable species.



Still the bush folk, fire and forest experts do have a care. Unlike townies who look for simple solutions to complex problems and wonder why the problem just doubled/tripled. Only to double down, so the problem quadruples, or worse.
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25 minutes ago, ssiri said:

 

 


The bush people , fires experts, forest experts, in the main don’t counter the townies. The reason being the townies tend to listen to those very experts, who know their onions, since it’s their bread and butter.

So yes, let’s have any Royal Commission represented by those very same people who are dealing with the very real issues on the ground right now.

I hope it doesn’t turn into an opportunity to scape goat them, which wouldn’t somehow surprise me.

 

 

Like Grenfell?

They just blamed the fire brigade.

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Like Grenfell? They just blamed the fire brigade.

 

 

 

Those who lost loved ones in Grenfell, by and large blamed the fire brigade. I wouldn’t classify misguided, but valid grief from those afflicted by the tragedy as the stance of the ‘townies’. That is low, coming from you. I’d expect that from others on here, but not you.

 

In Oz, the fire experts are a bit more shoulder to shoulder with the bush folk and ‘townies’ The commonality they all share is the frustration with the Feds, tossing the issue like a football to the states and territories - when it’s clearly a national/border less issue ( which requires national guidance to coordinate action at state/territory level). Most are the politicians tossing the back between Fed and State level, for what it is - a diversion.

 

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1 hour ago, ssiri said:

 

 

Those who lost loved ones in Grenfell, by and large blamed the fire brigade. I wouldn’t classify misguided, but valid grief from those afflicted by the tragedy as the stance of the ‘townies’. That is low, coming from you. I’d expect that from others on here, but not you.

 

In Oz, the fire experts are a bit more shoulder to shoulder with the bush folk and ‘townies’ The commonality they all share is the frustration with the Feds, tossing the issue like a football to the states and territories - when it’s clearly a national/border less issue ( which requires national guidance to coordinate action at state/territory level). Most are the politicians tossing the back between Fed and State level, for what it is - a diversion.

 

I was referring to the investigation into Grenfell which so far has only mentioned the fire brigade, and has yet to even contemplate the actions the council took in wrapping the building in highly flammable polystyrene.

I see the mistakes of the fire brigade as secondary to the mistakes of the council and sub contractors.

I would be very disappointed if any blame is put on the fire brigade during this royal commission. But I suspect it may be the case.

 

Edited by newjez
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I was referring to the investigation into Grenfell which so far has only mentioned the fire brigade, and has yet to even contemplate the actions the council took in wrapping the building in highly flammable polystyrene.

I see the mistakes of the fire brigade as secondary to the mistakes of the council and sub contractors.

I would be very disappointed if any blame is put on the fire brigade during this royal commission. But I suspect it may be the case.

 

 

Ok. I’d be with you on that. I think there would be uproar if they dared to blame the fire brigade here, given its largely volunteer based.

 

Still you can’t put it past this lot (Canberra) to p*ss and sh*t on the hands that really feed them.

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40 minutes ago, newjez said:

I was referring to the investigation into Grenfell which so far has only mentioned the fire brigade, and has yet to even contemplate the actions the council took in wrapping the building in highly flammable polystyrene.

I see the mistakes of the fire brigade as secondary to the mistakes of the council and sub contractors.

I would be very disappointed if any blame is put on the fire brigade during this royal commission. But I suspect it may be the case.

 

Let alone looking at the actions of the people who lived there. 

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Let alone looking at the actions of the people who lived there. 

 

 

Oh, the Reece- Mogg gambit. Blame the victims. Classic.

 

Thankfully when it comes to fighting fires and providing emergency care the emergency services remit is to save lives and learn lessons to ensure this doesn’t happen again. Similarly for the Councils.

 

Also the firefighters are experts in detecting arson, or foul play (such as petrol bombs through letter boxes etc.) so we know that none of that was what started the fire.

 

Where arson is not involved as in most cases of domestic fire it was an accident bourn of inattention or carelessness - things catching fire whilst cooking ( which shouldn’t), cigarette buts catching alight, on a highly flammable material and the wind catching a curtain near an open flame etc.

 

None of these have ever been or will ever be offences and rightly so. Why? Because usually when the fire brigade is called in to a properly fire proofed house, in an emergency the building will not catch alight and be razed to the ground in the time it takes for them to respond to the emergency.

 

That’s why they were shocked beyond despair when they saw the state of it when they got there. The brigade vehicle camera footage that was shown at the time attested to that. The fire proofing was meant to work like a retardant, not be an accelerant, contributing to the rapid spread of the fire.

 

So nice try, but this is still down to the council’s using substandard material that isn’t fire proofed and appropriate.

 

It is right to review the fire safety advice in such circumstances, but certainly not to scapegoat the fire service, or the residents.

 

 

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6 hours ago, newjez said:

Like Grenfell?

They just blamed the fire brigade.

Have you been asleep the last week?

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9 hours ago, ssiri said:

 

 


Still the bush folk, fire and forest experts do have a care. Unlike townies who look for simple solutions to complex problems and wonder why the problem just doubled/tripled. Only to double down, so the problem quadruples, or worse.

 

 

Hi.  I am a retired professional fire fighter of 35 years providing service right across the state of NSW. That included many hundreds of situations involving bushfires. The term 'townie"is misnomer, Since the Tathra fires there are very few operational jurisdictions between fire services. All fire services just need to provide the most efficient and effective response in order to do the best they can in terms of saving life and property.  It really is simple, is it not?

So I would be interested to hear what your simple solution is. Perhaps you have a complicated solution?

Edited by Dusty Plains
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Hi.  I am a retired professional fire fighter of 35 years providing service right across the state of NSW. That included many hundreds of situations involving bushfires. The term 'townie"is misnomer, Since the Tathra fires there are very few operational jurisdictions between fire services. All fire services just need to provide the most efficient and effective response in order to do the best they can in terms of saving life and property.  It really is simple, is it not?

So I would be interested to hear what your simple solution is. Perhaps you have a complicated solution?

 

Firstly, when did you retire? Last year, this? Other?

 

I go by the advice of the state fire chiefs who wanted an audience with the current PM last year (April/May). They wanted to discuss the risk they predicted then, that this fire season will turn into a tragic issue (which it has), and their approach to mitigate it (I don’t know what that was, but they felt it needed Federal attention/ prime table discussion ).

 

Assuming they got that audience and their plan were endorsed, your colleagues (not retired) would have been given a new plan/directives via your command structure to enact.

 

I don’t have any simple or complicated solutions. I am going by the stance your bosses took. Simple.

 

Sadly, they weren’t given that audience, and here we are....

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14 minutes ago, ssiri said:

 

Firstly, when did you retire? Last year, this? Other?

 

I go by the advice of the state fire chiefs who wanted an audience with the current PM last year (April/May). They wanted to discuss the risk they predicted then, that this fire season will turn into a tragic issue (which it has), and their approach to mitigate it (I don’t know what that was, but they felt it needed Federal attention/ prime table discussion ).

 

Assuming they got that audience and their plan were endorsed, your colleagues (not retired) would have been given a new plan/directives via your command structure to enact.

 

I don’t have any simple or complicated solutions. I am going by the stance your bosses took. Simple.

 

Sadly, they weren’t given that audience, and here we are....

I was one of "the bosses".  I was what you refer to as a "State Fire Chief"

So,  are you suggesting that a missed meeting caused the devastation associated with the current bushfires???  You have got to be kidding.

I really do not think you have any clue whatsoever. I doubt you are a firefighter TBH. When you referred to my heroic colleagues as mere "townies" I knew you were a wannabee. I think you are attempting to embarrass the libs in Canberra which shows your true colours ( RED) so that you can score political points amidst the misery of the people in the current emergency..  

The feds have no expertise in flood fire or storm simply because these events are managed by the states. 

What we do not need is yet another Royal Commission into another fire.

 

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9 hours ago, ssiri said:

 

 


The bush people , fires experts, forest experts, in the main don’t counter the townies. The reason being the townies tend to listen to those very experts, who know their onions, since it’s their bread and butter.

So yes, let’s have any Royal Commission represented by those very same people who are dealing with the very real issues on the ground right now.

I hope it doesn’t turn into an opportunity to scape goat them, which wouldn’t somehow surprise me.

 

 

We had a Royal commission after fires in 2009, where far more homes and sadly higher loss of life occurred, 

All the recommendations were not actioned , it doesn’t need a new one implement what that one advised 

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1 minute ago, Rallyman said:

We had a Royal commission after fires in 2009, where far more homes and sadly higher loss of life occurred, 

All the recommendations were not actioned , it doesn’t need a new one implement what that one advised 

Exactly. There have been numerous fires that have attracted Royal Commissions.

This is what  politicians do, given that many of them are lawyers. Very few of the very many RCs into bushfires have made no difference whatsoever to the average person living in bushfire-prone areas. 

Its a case of lawyers making lots and lots of money from misery, with no result to those in misery.

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Plains said:

Exactly. There have been numerous fires that have attracted Royal Commissions.

This is what  politicians do, given that many of them are lawyers. Very few of the very many RCs into bushfires have made no difference whatsoever to the average person living in bushfire-prone areas. 

Its a case of lawyers making lots and lots of money from misery, with no result to those in misery.

Unfortunately some like to try and score cheap political points with a few on here 

agree the lawyers always are the real winners 

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I was one of "the bosses".  I was what you refer to as a "State Fire Chief"
So,  are you suggesting that a missed meeting caused the devastation associated with the current bushfires???  You have got to be kidding.
I really do not think you have any clue whatsoever. I doubt you are a firefighter TBH. When you referred to my heroic colleagues as mere "townies" I knew you were a wannabee. I think you are attempting to embarrass the libs in Canberra which shows your true colours ( RED) so that you can score political points amidst the misery of the people in the current emergency..  
The feds have no expertise in flood fire or storm simply because these events are managed by the states. 
What we do not need is yet another Royal Commission into another fire.
 



You haven’t answered my question, when did you retire?

If you were one of those ‘Chiefs’ , last autumn, you would’ve known all about it. The meeting wasn’t missed it was refused. The fact you don’t know and have gone into quite a few paragraphs of deflection and even brazenly and unashamedly made the work and world of the fire chiefs about Canberra politicos tells me all I need to know. It indicates you weren’t even at at the table, when it was deemed necessary to ask for the audience. I don’t have to be a firefighter to know bluster, charlatan like behaviour and deflection when I see it.

I never claimed to be a fire anything. The issues were widely reported last autumn and last summer/Xmas, when all hell broke loose. You on the other hand, seem to know very little about what your colleagues, so called are up to for someone supposedly in the ‘know’.
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5 minutes ago, ssiri said:

 

 


You haven’t answered my question, when did you retire?

If you were one of those ‘Chiefs’ , last autumn, you would’ve known all about it. The meeting wasn’t missed it was refused. The fact you don’t know and have gone into quite a few paragraphs of deflection and even brazenly and unashamedly made the work and world of the fire chiefs about Canberra politicos tells me all I need to know. It indicates you weren’t even at at the table, when it was deemed necessary to ask for the audience. I don’t have to be a firefighter to know bluster, charlatan like behaviour and deflection when I see it.

I never claimed to be a fire anything. The issues were widely reported last autumn and last summer/Xmas, when all hell broke loose. You on the other hand, seem to know very little about what your colleagues, so called are up to for someone supposedly in the ‘know’.

 

 

As I suspected.

Edited by Dusty Plains

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Exactly. There have been numerous fires that have attracted Royal Commissions.

This is what  politicians do, given that many of them are lawyers. Very few of the very many RCs into bushfires have made no difference whatsoever to the average person living in bushfire-prone areas. 

Its a case of lawyers making lots and lots of money from misery, with no result to those in misery.

 

 

For a firefighter of the highest rank, you seem woefully ignorant about what your colleagues have been up to in the last 12 months or so. The information they’ve been making public (at worst), the inside scoop (at best).

 

So given the crisis and your ‘experience’ what are you doing wasting time on PIO? Even as a retiree wouldn’t you be better of deployed somewhere to bring your considerable ‘experience’ to bear and support those currently on the ground? Or did you not get the memo?

 

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As I suspected.


Pathetic and sad. Your country burns, and this is all you have, as a ‘fire chief’?

I didn’t claim to be anything for you to suspect. You can attack me as much as you like if it makes you feel big and important.

However, the work of the real fire chiefs is available in black and white and glorious TV technicolour. They certainly don’t have time to waste on PIO, in their line of work, unlike you, it would seem.

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1 minute ago, ssiri said:

 

 


For a firefighter of the highest rank, you seem woefully ignorant about what your colleagues have been up to in the last 12 months or so.

So given the crisis and your claimed experience, what are you doing on PIO? Even as a retiree wouldn’t you be better of deployed somewhere to bring your considerable ‘experience’ to bear and support those currently on the ground? Or did you not get the memo?

 

 

 

1 minute ago, ssiri said:

 

 


For a firefighter of the highest rank, you seem woefully ignorant about what your colleagues have been up to in the last 12 months or so.

So given the crisis and your claimed experience, what are you doing on PIO? Even as a retiree wouldn’t you be better of deployed somewhere to bring your considerable ‘experience’ to bear and support those currently on the ground? Or did you not get the memo?

 

 

A poor attempt. You are a political hack.  You promote yourself as some sort of expert on whatever topic comes up to vent your politics. Using the current bushfire misery of Australians to promote your politics is diabolical.  You have no idea. What other current affair are you going to hilack for your deperate need to be heard?? The price of fish perhaps?  You are the worst type of poster.

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