Question about Residence calculation for citizenship application

[Sigemup]

Hi guys,

Could you please help me with the calculation of the residence for the application for citizenship:

PR granted date - May 2015

Initial Entry date : May 2015

Absence - June 2015 to Feb 2017 

Stay here in Oz from: March 2017

Date to apply for citizenship: 

As per my understanding from what I have read online and answer to similar question in below link, the date for apply can be March 2020. This link is 
from this forum:

I think the above link has shows a similar scenario that I have shown in the dates given above here.

However, as I was looking, found another link given below, it is the 2nd comment by MARA agent, which indicates different as compared to the above link. 

Could you please help me know which date I can apply and what is the correct explanation for this question ?
 

Edited July 8, 2019 by ali
link removed

[MrGrieves]

Hi,

I think you will be eligible in March 2021 providing you won't be spending more than 12 months (in total) overseas and more than 90 days between March 2020 and March 2021 to satisfy the residence requirement.

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/citizenship/become-a-citizen/permanent-resident#Eligibility

[MrGrieves]

Actually, you might be right, since you're entitled to spend up to 12 months overseas, it brings the eligible date 1 year sooner - March 2020 should be fine then.

[wrussell]

Quote

March 2020 should be fine then.

Afraid not. 

[MrGrieves]

The residence calculator says March 2020 though. Why would not it work?

[Sigemup]

Thank you for the replies guys. This is a confusing subject with opinions on indicating opinions on either view in various forums.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Sigemup

[Phoenix16]

Wrussell is a respected resource, I would give serious consideration to his response

[Sigemup]

Thank you for the reply Phoenix.

 

A couple of points: 

1. I found on another forum (looks like link should not to be given here) that one of the members had the below dates and was approved as per his comments by applying on 22/03/2011 

Arrived on Torist Visa (12/12/06) Departed on Tourist Visa (9/1/07)
Arrived as PR (12/01/08) Departed as PR (27/2/08)
Arrived as PR (28/3/08) Departed as PR (10/6/09)
Arrived as PR (21/7/09) - Have remained here ever since

If I use the date of 12/12/06 as the Lawful residence date, the calculator says I can apply on 20/3/2011.

The dates mentioned above seem to be of similar scenario to what I have given in my first post on this thread. The person with the dates mentioned above in this post has been approved as per his further comments. Could you / someone please double check and confirm if I got it correct that it is the similar scenario ? 

Of course the above forum message was 8 years ago so not sure about the rules as of now. 

2. I have also given a link to a post in this forum on the first message I wrote - and @Paul Hand has replied to what I think is a similar scenario (Please correct mw on this) and has said that it is possible. He is a MARA agent and has another view. 

Not sure which one is accurate.

 

Please let me know your comments

 

Thank you

 

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Sigemup

[MaggieMay24]

If you take the date you intend to submit your citizenship application and look backwards 4 years:

• were you a legal Australian resident during that period (temporary visas including bridging visas count) ?
• did you hold a PR visa for at least 12 months?
• were you outside Australia no more than 12 months?
• were you outside Australia no more than 3 months during the most recent year?

If your answers are Yes, Yes, No and No, you should meet the residence requirement.

[Sigemup]

1 minute ago, MaggieMay24 said:

If you take the date you intend to submit your citizenship application and look backwards 4 years:

• were you a legal Australian resident during that period (temporary visas including bridging visas count) ?
• did you hold a PR visa for at least 12 months?
• were you outside Australia no more than 12 months?
• were you outside Australia no more than 3 months during the most recent year?

If your answers are Yes, Yes, No and No, you should meet the residence requirement.

 

 

Hi Maggie 

 

Thank you for the reply. 

"were you a legal Australian resident during that period (temporary visas including bridging visas count) ?"

 

To this question, the confusion is should the person be in Oz on the day looking 4 years from the intended date of lodging it or would holding a valid visa (PR for example) and having been 

in Australia for a few days before that be enough to fulfill this requirement.

 

"were you outside Australia no more than 12 months?"

 

To this question, the confusion is, even if one was away for more than 12 months after having visited once, whether it would be sufficient to look four years ago from lodgement date and  the total number of months away is a bit less than 12 months is that ok (given one was not in OZ at that point 4 years ago) and one can apply then ? 

 

 

 

 

[Raul Senise]

1 hour ago, Sigemup said:

To this question, the confusion is should the person be in Oz on the day looking 4 years from the intended date of lodging

Bingo.

The wording of the regulations can be quite confusing, but this is the issue. The four year clock cannot commence while you are not in Australia.

[Sigemup]

12 minutes ago, Raul Senise said:

Bingo.

The wording of the regulations can be quite confusing, but this is the issue. The four year clock cannot commence while you are not in Australia.

 

Hi Raul,

 

Thank you for the reply. 

Is the scenario that is mentioned above  messages on this thread (and quoted below) - not the same - where he was not in Oz when the four year clock started.  And as per his subsequent messages he was able to apply, do the test and was approved with this. It looks similar scenario. Please let me know if you think it is not same scenario ? 

 

"Arrived on Torist Visa (12/12/06) Departed on Tourist Visa (9/1/07)
Arrived as PR (12/01/08) Departed as PR (27/2/08)
Arrived as PR (28/3/08) Departed as PR (10/6/09)
Arrived as PR (21/7/09) - Have remained here ever since

If I use the date of 12/12/06 as the Lawful residence date, the calculator says I can apply on 20/3/2011."

[Raul Senise]

6 minutes ago, Sigemup said:

 

Hi Raul,

 

Thank you for the reply. 

Is the scenario that is mentioned above  messages on this thread (and quoted below) - not the same - where he was not in Oz when the four year clock started.  And as per his subsequent messages he was able to apply, do the test and was approved with this. It looks similar scenario. Please let me know if you think it is not same scenario ? 

 

"Arrived on Torist Visa (12/12/06) Departed on Tourist Visa (9/1/07)
Arrived as PR (12/01/08) Departed as PR (27/2/08)
Arrived as PR (28/3/08) Departed as PR (10/6/09)
Arrived as PR (21/7/09) - Have remained here ever since

If I use the date of 12/12/06 as the Lawful residence date, the calculator says I can apply on 20/3/2011."

All the message states is that the calculator advised a certain date. The specific details of the application are unknown.

I can only comment on facts based on the Regulations and my personal experience.

I don't speculate on hearsay.  

[paulhand]

Citizenship policy, chapter 7A:

”If absent from Australia on the day four years immediately before applying

If a person’s first arrival in Australia is less than four years before they apply for citizenship, they cannot meet the general residence requirement, even if they spend three years continuously in Australia.

The start date of the four-year lawful residence period is usually the date four years immediately before they lodge their application. However, if the person has not made their first entry into Australia, they need to wait at least four years after their first entry to meet this requirement.

Where a person was outside Australia on the day four years immediately before applying, but had previously been in Australia as the holder of a permanent visa, they may still use the day four years immediately before applying as a start date (for the purposes of being eligible to satisfy the four year lawful requirement), providing that on that day they held a permanent visa.

If these conditions are met, then the person may use the full four year period immediately before applying towards meeting the general residence requirement.”

 

[Sigemup]

3 hours ago, Raul Senise said:

All the message states is that the calculator advised a certain date. The specific details of the application are unknown.

I can only comment on facts based on the Regulations and my personal experience.

I don't speculate on hearsay.  

Hi @Raul 

Agreed that the specific details of the calculation are unknown. However, as mentioned above further messages stated that he got approval. Appreciate you reply and agree on not speculating. 

However, one question I have is, if we only look at the dates from the quote (and no other specific details), and compare with the dates that I have mentioned in first message on this thread, do you think these are similar scenarios or are there some variations ? As said, looking for a reply only based on the dates and assumption the dates are correct - are the scenarios similar ? In mu opinion I think they are. But want to check if someone can confirm that (only looking at the info given and assuming it is correct)  

 

Also, could you please provide any further details on the experience that you have mentioned ? 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Sigemup

[Sigemup]

2 hours ago, paulhand said:

Citizenship policy, chapter 7A:

”If absent from Australia on the day four years immediately before applying

If a person’s first arrival in Australia is less than four years before they apply for citizenship, they cannot meet the general residence requirement, even if they spend three years continuously in Australia.

The start date of the four-year lawful residence period is usually the date four years immediately before they lodge their application. However, if the person has not made their first entry into Australia, they need to wait at least four years after their first entry to meet this requirement.

Where a person was outside Australia on the day four years immediately before applying, but had previously been in Australia as the holder of a permanent visa, they may still use the day four years immediately before applying as a start date (for the purposes of being eligible to satisfy the four year lawful requirement), providing that on that day they held a permanent visa.

If these conditions are met, then the person may use the full four year period immediately before applying towards meeting the general residence requirement.”

 

 

Hi @Paul Hand

 

Based on the dates provided in the first message of this, it looks to me that these conditions mentioned in your message are satisfied. Would you agree on that (Please assume the dates I have given are correct).

The initial entry was more than four years ago and I did have a valid permanent visa on the date 4 years ago from approximate intended logdement date that I have mentioned.

 

Also, could you please provide me a link to the Text that you have quoted on the chapter 7A ?

 

Thank you 

[Red Rose]

No offence OP, but it doesn’t feel right or fair that you should be able to deduct one year from the P.R. residency requirement on the basis of your 21 month hiatus overseas. 

[NickyNook]

18 minutes ago, Red Rose said:

No offence OP, but it doesn’t feel right or fair that you should be able to deduct one year from the P.R. residency requirement on the basis of your 21 month hiatus overseas. 

It's quite legitimate  and quite fair.  Everyone is allowed up to a year's absence from Australia during the four year residency period. The OP will only be claiming that one year - he's just claiming it at the start of the 4 year period rather than within it. 

[LouDYorkie]

Oh wow, this thread is making me sweat!
I submitted my citizenship application on 19th June 2018. Exactly 4 years prior (i.e. 19th June 2014) I was on a work trip overseas for 2 weeks and at that time was on a temporary visa.
I sat my test in May but haven’t heard anything since....
I hadn’t read the part about the date exactly 4 years prior - eek! [emoji24]

Does it sound like they will reject it?!

[LouDYorkie]

Citizenship policy, chapter 7A:
”If absent from Australia on the day four years immediately before applying
If a person’s first arrival in Australia is less than four years before they apply for citizenship, they cannot meet the general residence requirement, even if they spend three years continuously in Australia.
The start date of the four-year lawful residence period is usually the date four years immediately before they lodge their application. However, if the person has not made their first entry into Australia, they need to wait at least four years after their first entry to meet this requirement.
Where a person was outside Australia on the day four years immediately before applying, but had previously been in Australia as the holder of a permanent visa, they may still use the day four years immediately before applying as a start date (for the purposes of being eligible to satisfy the four year lawful requirement), providing that on that day they held a permanent visa.
If these conditions are met, then the person may use the full four year period immediately before applying towards meeting the general residence requirement.”
 

I have just found an archived copy of this on the internet by searching “citizenship policy chapter 7a” but this level of detail is not (as far as I can see) in the Citizenship application space on the home affairs website that the average person refers to for their eligibility.
So it seems I’ve made a mistake because I was a temp resident out of the country on the day that is exactly 4 years prior to my citizenship submission date although I did have more than 4 years total residency when I submitted[emoji17]
Should I just withdraw my application and start again? Or seeing as I’ve already sat my test is it worth waiting to see what happens?
I was hoping it would be granted soon as it is affecting my work!
Appreciate any insight you can give

[Raul Senise]

12 hours ago, Sigemup said:

Hi @Raul 

Agreed that the specific details of the calculation are unknown. However, as mentioned above further messages stated that he got approval. Appreciate you reply and agree on not speculating. 

However, one question I have is, if we only look at the dates from the quote (and no other specific details), and compare with the dates that I have mentioned in first message on this thread, do you think these are similar scenarios or are there some variations ? As said, looking for a reply only based on the dates and assumption the dates are correct - are the scenarios similar ? In mu opinion I think they are. But want to check if someone can confirm that (only looking at the info given and assuming it is correct)  

 

Also, could you please provide any further details on the experience that you have mentioned ? 

 

I only provide general advice on the forum, I do not assess and provide specific advice on a particular matter in a post.

I have provided some basic details on the area you need to be mindful of and research further to determine your eligibility.

My office has lodged many citizenship applications over the years and each one is assessed against it's own merits.

If you would like a paid assessment of your specific details against the latest Regulations, Act and Policy, please contact my office.

 

 

[fanta112]

Disclaimer: I'm no immigration agent/lawyer. But I believe the date of meeting the eligibility in the OP's original post, i.e. Mar 2020, is correct. I was in a similar situation when I applied and I got my citizenship already.

 

Here is my timeline:

 

• First arrival in Australia: 2009 (on student visa)
• Absence from Australia: Mar 2013 ~ Aug 2014 (during which my previous student visa ceased in Sept 2013, and I got a new student visa upon return; no other absence)
• PR grant: Jan 2016
• Citizenship application submitted: Aug 2017

 

So my understanding based on my own experience is, the four year counter starts after your first arrival in Aus and immediately before submitting application. The 12-month max absence can be at the beginning of the four-year period (while you are overseas) , and even includes time where you don't have any visa in effect. Cheers

Edited August 11, 2019 by fanta112

[Gabriel_P]

Hi fanta112,

 

Thanks for your post. This is very relevant to my situation.

Currently, the residence calculator is telling me that I am eligible to apply for citizenship (YES outcome), but the Immigration officers upon ringing them (2 separate occasions yesterday, Aug 26, 2019; 2 different officers) told me that I am only eligible to apply by July 26, 2020 (as per their system).

But a year ago, I sought the help of the Immigration office, and one officer kindly walked me through using the residence calculator; he even pre-determined for me that I would be eligible to apply by Aug 25, 2019! I confirmed with him at least three times (by being critical with dates of leaving and re-entry), and he said that the latest that I can apply was Aug 26, 2019. I relied on this professional help since last year, and even checked with the residence calculator every 3 months onward re my eligibility in case new policies and laws affected my situation, but am now gutted to find out that my eligibility is delayed.

Relevant dates for my circumstances:

July 20, 2013 - First entry to Australia under a 2-year student VISA

July 11, 2015-July 25, 2016 - Away from the country for 1 year and 15 days (I didn't know that being away for more than 12 months will have serious consequences; also, my student VISA expired, but I left the country prior to VISA expiration)

July 26, 2016 to date - Came back as a permanent resident (have been a PR for at least 3 years now, and I was away for only 1 month within the last 12 months).

Since I am 'determined' as not eligible to apply for citizenship, and I am hoping the Immigration officers are wrong (and based on your circumstances I may be right with this assessment), can you point me to any info that will satisfy my confusion why the residence calculator says YES, but the Immigration officers says NO?

 

Cheers!

[rammygirl]

You have to add any time spent outside Australia to your timeline.  We did the same and counted our absence before returning as the one year, but needed to add time out since then.  Look back 4 years to check.

Our first entry was on a provisional visa, so we were absent from Australia on the date 4 years back from application and didn’t have PR.  We are now citizens.

once you start the application it won’t let you progress if you do not meet the residence criteria. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by rammygirl

[guptsur]

Hi Gabriel_P,

Any news ? were you able to apply or are you having to wait till next year ? I am in a very similar situation as you where the residency calculator says that I will be eligible around 16th November 2019 but the office on the phone says that I will not be eligible till 7th July 2020.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.