Think outside the (city) box

[MARYROSE02]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Returns said:

I'm no expert on the western suburbs of Sydney, although I did go out to Blacktown for a week-long training course once and was rather glad I didn't live out there. I looked a bit grim, to be honest. I assume my friend was referring to the fact that the further west you go, the hotter it gets. I remember it being sweltering when I was there, while it was a good 5-10C cooler on the coast. 

The 'Sydney thing' is the same as the 'London thing'. The misconception that your life will in some way be incomplete if you don't live at the epicentre of all things cool.

I have a mate whom I always envied because he moved to London, whilst he envied me because I moved to Sydney!

[MARYROSE02]

15 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

There are some grim suburbs out west,  I must say, but there are nice ones as well, like any city.   But you're right, the further west you go, the hotter it gets, and there are no sea breezes to temper the humidity.   It just keeps getting stickier until you reach the Blue Mountains, then you can get up into the higher altitudes and cool down!    That's one of the reasons we're in Melbourne not Sydney.   I love many things about Sydney but our budget would've meant moving further west, and I am not good at coping with humid heat.  

However, like I said, one of the reasons for going west is you can get a much larger home for less money, so at least people have more spacious homes with air con, and for some people, that's attraction enough.

I can remember leaving home in Surry Hills thinking how hellishly hot it was, then boarding an air conditioned train, and getting out at Penrith and feeling like I was being assaulted with a hair dryer on maximum heat. Then in reverse, going back to Central, getting out and thinking, "It's cold here!"

But I liked Penrith for all that. It was a proper town, complete with English style "High Street" and a river and close to the Blue Mts.

[Wanderer Returns]

45 minutes ago, MARYROSE02 said:

But I liked Penrith for all that. It was a proper town, complete with English style "High Street" and a river and close to the Blue Mts.

That's strange you should say that as I drove through Penrith once on the way to the Blue Mountains, and thought exactly the same thing about the English style "High Street". We have one here in Caloundra too, which is one of the reasons I rather like the place.

[MARYROSE02]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Returns said:

That's strange you should say that as I drove through Penrith once on the way to the Blue Mountains, and thought exactly the same thing about the English style "High Street". We have one here in Caloundra too, which is one of the reasons I rather like the place.

I had half an hour after I finished work before the train came which gave me time to walk around and explore. If I had been at the beginning of my career I think I might have moved there. They were redeveloping the area to the north of the station and I thought that would be a nice area to live, walking distance to station, Westfield, the High Street.  I think it took 48 minutes from Penrith to Central, stopping at Blacktown, maybe Westfiield (for the hospitals), Parramatta and Strathfield. And I suppose about the same to Katoomba.

[Guest AltyMatt]

The current situation is certainly changing expectations on where to live,  making a tree change more feasible.

My employer (Sydney CBD) has confirmed we can continue working from home once the pandemic passes. Last year they even hired a couple of people in country towns with no expectations that they visit an office.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, AltyMatt said:

The current situation is certainly changing expectations on where to live,  making a tree change more feasible.

My employer (Sydney CBD) has confirmed we can continue working from home once the pandemic passes. Last year they even hired a couple of people in country towns with no expectations that they visit an office.

I suspect it won't be long before companies pay based on where you are living though, so don't get too used to it.

[Marisawright]

9 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I suspect it won't be long before companies pay based on where you are living though, so don't get too used to it.

I doubt it somehow.  I don't know if a "London loading" is still a thing, but in Australia, people are paid according to what they do, and location doesn't enter into it.   That's a problem for Sydneysiders because they're paid the same as someone in Adelaide but their housing costs twice as much.

[Wanderer Returns]

34 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

I doubt it somehow.  I don't know if a "London loading" is still a thing, but in Australia, people are paid according to what they do, and location doesn't enter into it.   That's a problem for Sydneysiders because they're paid the same as someone in Adelaide but their housing costs twice as much.

In teaching you get what's called 'London Weighting Allowance', and there are 3 different rates for inner London, outer London, and London fringe. The NHS have the same system, and I believe it's additional 20%, 15%, and 5% respectively. One of my mates was a postie in Hackney and he got it as well, along with subsidised accommodation.

In Queensland you don't get anything extra if you teach in Brisbane, and I believe the same is true in other states if you work in state capital. The opposite is true in fact - you get a location allowance for working in rural and remote communities, which can be quite generous depending on where you are. The reality is that in Australia, most people want to live and work in/near the major cites, of course!

[Paul1Perth]

3 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I doubt it somehow.  I don't know if a "London loading" is still a thing, but in Australia, people are paid according to what they do, and location doesn't enter into it.   That's a problem for Sydneysiders because they're paid the same as someone in Adelaide but their housing costs twice as much.

I don't think so. The company I worked for would have given me a lot more salary if I'd have moved to Sydney. Still wasn't anywhere near enough though.

I knew a lot of people in the Sydney offices on the same and lower grade as me and they were on a lot more.

We had other offices in different places and where you lived had a big influence on what you were paid. The Melbourne office won a big contract and wanted lots of software and systems Engineers quickly. They offered everyone who was interested a lot more money if they moved. They were disappointed when only 2 people went. I keep in touch with one, a very clever Asian girl who's life was work. She's had a couple of promotions and rises which she says she needs. She says she still seemed to have more spending money here.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Paul1Perth

[Wanderer Returns]

Back in the 90s I regularly stayed with my cousin, who lived in a new development in the docklands. He dropped me off in the city on one occasion, and on our way to his offices we drove past the Tower of London and some other famous sights, which I thought was uber cool at the time. When I asked him about it, he said he drove past everyday and never even noticed it any more. After 6 months living in Sydney I felt exactly the same about the opera house and harbour bridge, although I'm sure if I returned now after almost a decade I'd find them impressive again.

[Jon the Hat]

13 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I doubt it somehow.  I don't know if a "London loading" is still a thing, but in Australia, people are paid according to what they do, and location doesn't enter into it.   That's a problem for Sydneysiders because they're paid the same as someone in Adelaide but their housing costs twice as much.

Trust me it is being considered already in my ASX listed employer with office around the globe, and we are hardly the fastest to move on such policies.  Put simply, if I know the going rate for someone to fill a specific role in Adelaide is $120k, and in Sydney is $160k, and I open the role to anyone located in Australia remote working, if they are in Adelaide I am not going to offer them Sydney CBD money.  This will happen naturally over time.

It is only a small leap then to say if existing people living in Sydney choose to relocate to somewhere much cheaper as they are not required to come to the office anymore, then they are asked to take a pay cut.  Not all companies will want to do that, and local legislation might make it hard in Australia.  The problem then is if employers see a 40% saving in making Sydney roles redundant and recruiting elsewhere that can get a lot more attractive.

[FirstWorldProblems]

3 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

 

It is only a small leap then to say if existing people living in Sydney choose to relocate to somewhere much cheaper as they are not required to come to the office anymore, then they are asked to take a pay cut.  Not all companies will want to do that, and local legislation might make it hard in Australia.  The problem then is if employers see a 40% saving in making Sydney roles redundant and recruiting elsewhere that can get a lot more attractive.

That's absolutely what will happen and even for companies that don't want to do the sort of restructure that you describe, it will either happen organically (through attrition and replacements coming in at a lower rate), or they will find themselves forced to restructure once the competition do it and gain a competitive edge through being able to pass part of those savings on to customers.

Here in the UK where we've had now the best part of 12 months proof that businesses can still function, you'll see lots of office space reduction as companies scale back from having a desk for every employee and move to office hubs for customer meeting space and employee hot desks.  There's going to be a glut of commercial property empty which will drive down rental prices too. 

Ultimately it will level out.  For the individual they are unlikely to hold onto the same high pay but will still benefit by not having to undertake the commute 5 days.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, FirstWorldProblems said:

That's absolutely what will happen and even for companies that don't want to do the sort of restructure that you describe, it will either happen organically (through attrition and replacements coming in at a lower rate), or they will find themselves forced to restructure once the competition do it and gain a competitive edge through being able to pass part of those savings on to customers.

Here in the UK where we've had now the best part of 12 months proof that businesses can still function, you'll see lots of office space reduction as companies scale back from having a desk for every employee and move to office hubs for customer meeting space and employee hot desks.  There's going to be a glut of commercial property empty which will drive down rental prices too. 

Ultimately it will level out.  For the individual they are unlikely to hold onto the same high pay but will still benefit by not having to undertake the commute 5 days.

I hope so' I've just submitted a 5 year plan with several million $ of real estate savings in it!

[FirstWorldProblems]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

I hope so' I've just submitted a 5 year plan with several million $ of real estate savings in it!

It will be fascinating to see how that affects residential property prices in and around major cities. 

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, FirstWorldProblems said:

It will be fascinating to see how that affects residential property prices in and around major cities. 

Seeing some demand a little further out already, many would reject my commute of 90 mins door to door, but I rarely did 5 days a week, mainly 3 or 4 in the office, plus some travel weeks with no or 1 day at most.  My buyers are moving from Epsom.

[newjez]

4 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Seeing some demand a little further out already, many would reject my commute of 90 mins door to door, but I rarely did 5 days a week, mainly 3 or 4 in the office, plus some travel weeks with no or 1 day at most.  My buyers are moving from Epsom.

I'll have a 90 minute commute if I ever get back in the office. But our bosses have already told us we'll only be going in once or twice a week.

[Wanderer Returns]

11 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Trust me it is being considered already in my ASX listed employer with office around the globe, and we are hardly the fastest to move on such policies.  Put simply, if I know the going rate for someone to fill a specific role in Adelaide is $120k, and in Sydney is $160k, and I open the role to anyone located in Australia remote working, if they are in Adelaide I am not going to offer them Sydney CBD money.  This will happen naturally over time.

It is only a small leap then to say if existing people living in Sydney choose to relocate to somewhere much cheaper as they are not required to come to the office anymore, then they are asked to take a pay cut.  Not all companies will want to do that, and local legislation might make it hard in Australia.  The problem then is if employers see a 40% saving in making Sydney roles redundant and recruiting elsewhere that can get a lot more attractive.

Hasn't this already being going on for a decade or two with the outsourcing of services to the Philippines, India etc? It's just taken the pandemic to get employers over the mental hurdle of remote working for domestic employees, and learn how to utilize some relatively simple technology (which has also been around for a while).

7 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Ultimately it will level out.  For the individual they are unlikely to hold onto the same high pay but will still benefit by not having to undertake the commute 5 days.

Not to mention the positive impact on the environment - it's a win for everyone.

7 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

It will be fascinating to see how that affects residential property prices in and around major cities. 

I anticipate they'll keep on rising, but at a slower rate, as there'll always be people who'll want to live in cities - and some people who'll have to. I think there'll be an explosion in regional coastal centres which already have a developed infrastructure - places like Port Macquarie, Forster, and Coffs Harbour, which are too far away to commute to any major city, but where you could comfortably work remotely. For many Australians, including myself, living by the coast whilst still having job security is the dream.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Wanderer Returns

[Guest AltyMatt]

Different pay rates for different states has been in place for some time and don't think it will change - they broadly track the property prices of the state capitals.

But I can't see how an employer will offer someone less because they live in Wollongong rather than Surry Hills if the employee is only expected in the office a couple of times a month.

Where there may be a pay distinction is between companies that permit remote working and those that won't. Those micro-managed positions will need to offer an incentive to get people to commute Monday to Friday.

[Parley]

2 hours ago, AltyMatt said:

Where there may be a pay distinction is between companies that permit remote working and those that won't. Those micro-managed positions will need to offer an incentive to get people to commute Monday to Friday.

I doubt it. People are looking for work and there will always be people who live close to the workplace as well as people who live further away.

Unless employers cannot find workers they need would they increase salaries. I don't see that happening in the current climate.