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Paras shoot at an image of Jeremy Corbyn

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2 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

A very recent phenomenon,  most probably because he will not support another referendum, preferring to make it a democratic decision by parliament. 

He dislikes the eu more than most and is on record saying it even you would know that 

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23 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

He dislikes the eu more than most and is on record saying it even you would know that 

The man is an idiot and a IRA supporter no wonder that shot at a cardboard cut out of the tramp, I would have done the same.


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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35 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

Very easy to hide  behind the keyboard in the safety of your home. 

And quite what does that mean

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6 minutes ago, Perthbum said:

The man is an idiot and a IRA supporter no wonder that shot at a cardboard cut out of the tramp, I would have done the same.

Well there we have it.

 

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47 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

Please read what I posted , I do stand with him as it’s a stitch up he is being made a scape goat , you can’t just let some off and charge others. Imho it’s all or none as I have said. 

Do you think it’s ok not to charge some IRA members with murder but charge our service men ? 

Were you there that day ? How would you react ? 

They were sent into to ulster to send a message as the British government  was losing control , they were there to retake no go areas across the city. 

 

5 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Ah, well, you know the Left will have bent the British legal system , itvwill all he down to that Corbyn doing a stitch up

There we have it.

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33 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

Please read what I posted , I do stand with him as it’s a stitch up he is being made a scape goat , you can’t just let some off and charge others. Imho it’s all or none as I have said. 

Do you think it’s ok not to charge some IRA members with murder but charge our service men ? 

Were you there that day ? How would you react ? 

They were sent into to ulster to send a message as the British government  was losing control , they were there to retake no go areas across the city. 

Were you there that day?  How would you have reacted?  How do you know he's a scapegoat when you don't know what he's done?  How do you know what he was sent to do?  How do you know what was in his head? This is just you making random subversive arguments again, because you make your mind up without evidence and get most of it wrong. 

There is nothing wrong with standing by him, he's an innocent man...but what part of the previous days postings about the now 21 year old GFA do you not comprehend? Did you really not understand?  

Isn't the point of this trial to examine his specific actions?   You would assume that the other soldiers who have NOT been charged were ignored because they were not  thought to be aiming at the backs of people's heads after an independent examination of the factual evidence.  Otherwise they would have all been charged no?  Why were they not charged, if you know all these answers?

He has not been found guilty, but there is a case for him to answer....this is our legal system and it demeans your standing if you want to pick and choose who should stand in front of it.  

 

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22 minutes ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

Were you there that day?  How would you have reacted?  How do you know he's a scapegoat when you don't know what he's done?  How do you know what he was sent to do?  How do you know what was in his head? This is just you making random subversive arguments again, because you make your mind up without evidence and get most of it wrong. 

There is nothing wrong with standing by him, he's an innocent man...but what part of the previous days postings about the now 21 year old GFA do you not comprehend? Did you really not understand?  

Isn't the point of this trial to examine his specific actions?   You would assume that the other soldiers who have NOT been charged were ignored because they were not  thought to be aiming at the backs of people's heads after an independent examination of the factual evidence.  Otherwise they would have all been charged no?  Why were they not charged, if you know all these answers?

He has not been found guilty, but there is a case for him to answer....this is our legal system and it demeans your standing if you want to pick and choose who should stand in front of it.  

 

There is no point, all that is on offer is hatred, there is no reasoning being offered,

We want to try and examine the reasoning and all that is offered is a rationale for their own position which do not stand up. . 

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44 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

And quite what does that mean

You claim to be the educated working man you tell us 

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27 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

You claim to be the educated working man you tell us 

Sounded very much like a challenge to step outside?

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18 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Sounded very much like a challenge to step outside?

Sorry you are waffling again , hot chocolate time for you 

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17 minutes ago, Rallyman said:

Sorry you are waffling again , hot chocolate time for you 

Still not willing to engage.

It seems like it might be a confronting issue.

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29 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Still not willing to engage.

It seems like it might be a confronting issue.

What are you trying to achieve ? 

I posted a link giving a possible explanation on why the Regiment had a photo of JC on their range , I have said I don’t Lille JC and why that’s my opinion of him. I stand by solider F as I don’t agree with a witch hunt , you either prosecute all murderers from both sides of the troubles or don’t 

Don’t  think I can be much clearer than that. Those are my opinions if you don’t agree that’s your choice you are entitled to your view , this whole incident is very close to my heart for reasons I am not getting into on a Internet forum . 

For some reason you are trying to provoke a reaction from me , you need to get a life mate you are just trolling.

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On 15/04/2019 at 21:45, Slean Wolfhead said:

who is picking and choosing?  That is the deal we made 21 years ago.  We even let people out of jail who were already in there.  That was the price to be paid, and you can't open it up again now.

Agreed. So/but why are they "pursuing the past" in the case of British Soldiers? I have strongly believed in a United Ireland since my teens, despite serving in the Armed Forces, but my personal opinion is that all they are doing here is picking at the wounds. If "bygones are bygones" for the nationalists, so it should be for the colonialists. In the heat of conflict, shit happens, folk make mistakes, even the professionals. Mistakes made by soldiers/police in conflict are not crimes against humanity, they are simply mistakes in the "heat of battle" unlike the targeting of civilians by both sides in the conflict...............those were crimes against humanity by their very definition........................all that's happening here in the matter of pursuing British Soldiers is that mistakes are being relived and retribution sought for political ends.........................move on..............end of.

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15 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

So, in terms of this thread, it would appear that there are a number of people who seemingly approve of members of Her Majesty's Armed Services using a picture of the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition as a target for pistol practice, a close quarters weapon.

 Very democratic.!

FFS! It's nothing to do with democracy and is purely an indicator of the military black humour and the contempt that they have for Corbyn...............no different than someone on a night out in a pub sticking a picture of May on the dartboard. Get real................not everything (perhaps) distasteful is THAT big a deal!........................unless of course you want to make it a big deal just to hear the sound of your own voice and/or score some points

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6 hours ago, Johndoe said:

FFS! It's nothing to do with democracy and is purely an indicator of the military black humour and the contempt that they have for Corbyn...............no different than someone on a night out in a pub sticking a picture of May on the dartboard. Get real................not everything (perhaps) distasteful is THAT big a deal!........................unless of course you want to make it a big deal just to hear the sound of your own voice and/or score some points

I was going to try and make the connections between what happened in Ireland and some jolly banter on the para's pistol range but yunnow I can't be bothered, we will just wait for the trials and for Corbyn to be PM.

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6 hours ago, Johndoe said:

Agreed. So/but why are they "pursuing the past" in the case of British Soldiers? I have strongly believed in a United Ireland since my teens, despite serving in the Armed Forces, but my personal opinion is that all they are doing here is picking at the wounds. If "bygones are bygones" for the nationalists, so it should be for the colonialists. In the heat of conflict, shit happens, folk make mistakes, even the professionals. Mistakes made by soldiers/police in conflict are not crimes against humanity, they are simply mistakes in the "heat of battle" unlike the targeting of civilians by both sides in the conflict...............those were crimes against humanity by their very definition........................all that's happening here in the matter of pursuing British Soldiers is that mistakes are being relived and retribution sought for political ends.........................move on..............end of.

I guess because they aren't part of the deal the British government made as we always said we were not at war and fighting under rules?  They must have reason to believe that it wasn't a mistake and was deliberate, or at least they've had to admit that there is a case to answer which is outside the agreement.  

It's no different to the Brum pub bombings now that the ex-IRA have named the individuals after hearing the families plea.  They can now pursue them for damages in a Court, the ones that are left alive.   That was 2 years after Bloody Sunday, so you can see what tensions of revenge can bring and innocent people get killed on both sides.  The IRA have never accepted that as murder, but we all think differently

Even though the Irish felt they were fighting a war, the British Government never accepted that and expected rules of engagement.  Maybe they should have.  By theor own rules they must have felt this one individual has a case to answer outside of their protection, because maybe they think he was acting differently on purpose and without orders?  I guess his trial will examine the evidence and a jury will decide.

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11 minutes ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

I guess because they aren't part of the deal the British government made as we always said we were not at war and fighting under rules?  They must have reason to believe that it wasn't a mistake and was deliberate, or at least they've had to admit that there is a case to answer which is outside the agreement.  

It's no different to the Brum pub bombings now that the ex-IRA have named the individuals after hearing the families plea.  They can now pursue them for damages in a Court, the ones that are left alive.   That was 2 years after Bloody Sunday, so you can see what tensions of revenge can bring and innocent people get killed on both sides.  The IRA have never accepted that as murder, but we all think differently

Even though the Irish felt they were fighting a war, the British Government never accepted that and expected rules of engagement.  Maybe they should have.  By theor own rules they must have felt this one individual has a case to answer outside of their protection, because maybe they think he was acting differently on purpose and without orders?  I guess his trial will examine the evidence and a jury will decide.

Because at the end of the day it appears there were deliberate decisions made to target individuals who posed no threat to soldiers who it seems may have failed to follow orders, and it maybe that NCO's failed to keep order, the excuse of the heat of battle has prevented a proper evaluation of what happened for years and it is only now when clearer minds have examined the evidence have they come up with enough evidence to believe that somebody made a clear decision that cost someone their life and that decision was not made because they were in fear of their own life.

But we will all have to await the trial and hope that the chain of command, the attitudes of senior officers and politicians of the day and the pressure that troops were under is all examined in court, and all of that may well be why the establishment have always shied away from charging anyone from the army.

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7 hours ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

I guess because they aren't part of the deal the British government made as we always said we were not at war and fighting under rules?  They must have reason to believe that it wasn't a mistake and was deliberate, or at least they've had to admit that there is a case to answer which is outside the agreement.  

It's no different to the Brum pub bombings now that the ex-IRA have named the individuals after hearing the families plea.  They can now pursue them for damages in a Court, the ones that are left alive.   That was 2 years after Bloody Sunday, so you can see what tensions of revenge can bring and innocent people get killed on both sides.  The IRA have never accepted that as murder, but we all think differently

Even though the Irish felt they were fighting a war, the British Government never accepted that and expected rules of engagement.  Maybe they should have.  By theor own rules they must have felt this one individual has a case to answer outside of their protection, because maybe they think he was acting differently on purpose and without orders?  I guess his trial will examine the evidence and a jury will decide.

 

6 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Because at the end of the day it appears there were deliberate decisions made to target individuals who posed no threat to soldiers who it seems may have failed to follow orders, and it maybe that NCO's failed to keep order, the excuse of the heat of battle has prevented a proper evaluation of what happened for years and it is only now when clearer minds have examined the evidence have they come up with enough evidence to believe that somebody made a clear decision that cost someone their life and that decision was not made because they were in fear of their own life.

But we will all have to await the trial and hope that the chain of command, the attitudes of senior officers and politicians of the day and the pressure that troops were under is all examined in court, and all of that may well be why the establishment have always shied away from charging anyone from the army.

Forget the whole "ins and outs" of the debate/argument based on "rights and wrongs". The simple fact is that the average "Serviceman", no matter their country or allegiance, is of the lower socio economic class and as such, sadly, are protective of that which clothes and feeds them whilst at the same time, fail, or are unable to look further into the morality of their  allegiance (should they have the education so to do)

It may sound pretty simplistic and derisory of servicemen's ability to "think for themselves" (politically/morally) and yet, I am prepared to guess, nay, at the danger of sounding pompous/arrogant/superior or whatever label you wish to place on me, say "that I know."  it is also pretty indicative of both the Nationalist and Unionist "upper class" ability to recruit persons to commit themselves to heinous acts that they consider to be part of a "heroic struggle" whilst at the same or future time, attempt to wash their hands of any involvement and subsequently sacrifice those that they have recruited to do their dirty work, just as the Jihadi leaders are doing today.

My personal experience of the rank and file in the Armed forces is that they are "gung ho" in their approach to what they are fed by "the right", or indeed by their officers, and this is  symptomatic of their "need to belong" and "need for empowerment"  based on their previous life being based on a feeling/experience that they have had no control over their past life and still have no control over their current or future life.......................the Armed Forces gives them a sense that they at least have some  control.............right or wrong, it's an understandable attitude to anyone hailing from the "underprivileged class"..................personally, I strove to "self educate" and my life in the forces was a misery because of it. I was committed to a length of service, signed when i was only 15 and partaking of when I became "politically aware" when listening to the likes of Dylan and Pete Seeger a few yrs later..................too late my friend! You've signed on the dotted line!

Not only was that dotted line a "prison" so too were your buddies attitudes.............peer pressure nowadays (in the news ) in relation to social media pales into insignificance if you only knew what was expected of you by your service buddies.

The officer class OTOH, should know better and be well enough educated in imperialistic and colonialistic machinations to realise that those machinations, and indeed aspirations (of state) were, and are no longer acceptable, as their purpose served only to protect colonialism and their class privilege .........................Soldier F is merely the bone being thrown to the dog.....................a dog that should have been put down at the time of the peace accord and which I liken to medieval hunting dogs who were thrown a peasant who failed to raise the pheasants on a hunting shoot

 

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14 minutes ago, Johndoe said:

 

Forget the whole "ins and outs" of the debate/argument based on "rights and wrongs". The simple fact is that the average "Serviceman", no matter their country or allegiance, is of the lower socio economic class and as such, sadly, are protective of that which clothes and feeds them whilst at the same time, fail, or are unable to look further into the morality of their  allegiance (should they have the education so to do)

It may sound pretty simplistic and derisory of servicemen's ability to "think for themselves" (politically/morally) and yet, I am prepared to guess, nay, at the danger of sounding pompous/arrogant/superior or whatever label you wish to place on me, say "that I know."  it is also pretty indicative of both the Nationalist and Unionist "upper class" ability to recruit persons to commit themselves to heinous acts that they consider to be part of a "heroic struggle" whilst at the same or future time, attempt to wash their hands of any involvement and subsequently sacrifice those that they have recruited to do their dirty work, just as the Jihadi leaders are doing today.

My personal experience of the rank and file in the Armed forces is that they are "gung ho" in their approach to what they are fed by "the right", or indeed by their officers, and this is  symptomatic of their "need to belong" and "need for empowerment"  based on their previous life being based on a feeling/experience that they have had no control over their past life and still have no control over their current or future life.......................the Armed Forces gives them a sense that they at least have some  control.............right or wrong, it's an understandable attitude to anyone hailing from the "underprivileged class"..................personally, I strove to "self educate" and my life in the forces was a misery because of it. I was committed to a length of service, signed when i was only 15 and partaking of when I became "politically aware" when listening to the likes of Dylan and Pete Seeger a few yrs later..................too late my friend! You've signed on the dotted line!

Not only was that dotted line a "prison" so too were your buddies attitudes.............peer pressure nowadays (in the news ) in relation to social media pales into insignificance if you only knew what was expected of you by your service buddies.

The officer class OTOH, should know better and be well enough educated in imperialistic and colonialistic machinations to realise that those machinations, and indeed aspirations (of state) were, and are no longer acceptable, as their purpose served only to protect colonialism and their class privilege .........................Soldier F is merely the bone being thrown to the dog.....................a dog that should have been put down at the time of the peace accord and which I liken to medieval hunting dogs who were thrown a peasant who failed to raise the pheasants on a hunting shoot

 

Agreed, and that was why I tried to concentrate on failures at command level,  they are the ones who should be in the dock as well as the poor old squaddie, he may have pulled the trigger but I am sure there was a heap of pressure from the top to establish order at all cost and that got translated into take the f....s down.

That was my point about the Corbyn issue, once it gets to that stage then obviously someone in command is shutting their eyes and Bloody Sunday happens.

I also believe that recruitment into the army is badly handled and concentrates on the least able/capable and , especially that virtual kids can still sign on and that of itself is an indictment of the British army and its attitudes.

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6 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Agreed, and that was why I tried to concentrate on failures at command level,  they are the ones who should be in the dock as well as the poor old squaddie, he may have pulled the trigger but I am sure there was a heap of pressure from the top to establish order at all cost and that got translated into take the f....s down.

That was my point about the Corbyn issue, once it gets to that stage then obviously someone in command is shutting their eyes and Bloody Sunday happens.

I also believe that recruitment into the army is badly handled and concentrates on the least able/capable and , especially that virtual kids can still sign on and that of itself is an indictment of the British army and its attitudes.

Nope!........................Conspiracy theorists, TV series etc etc are looking in the wrong direction and attempting to depict things as happening "from above".....................load of bollox! My personal experience going even further back into colonialism which includes Aden as well as Ulster, was that our officers always emphasised  restraint based on the rules of engagement card. When "shlt happened" it invariably emanated from and individual known to be an "angry person".............."trigger happy if you will, (ask yourself where the anger issues came from) or from someone who was "new to the job" or just plain jumpy/frightened.

These things happened not because of some greater conspiracy but simply because too much was expected of a "battle soldier" placed in a "policing situation" or because, quite simply, of human frailties.


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24 minutes ago, Johndoe said:

Nope!........................Conspiracy theorists, TV series etc etc are looking in the wrong direction and attempting to depict things as happening "from above".....................load of bollox! My personal experience going even further back into colonialism which includes Aden as well as Ulster, was that our officers always emphasised  restraint based on the rules of engagement card. When "shlt happened" it invariably emanated from and individual known to be an "angry person".............."trigger happy if you will, (ask yourself where the anger issues came from) or from someone who was "new to the job" or just plain jumpy/frightened.

These things happened not because of some greater conspiracy but simply because too much was expected of a "battle soldier" placed in a "policing situation" or because, quite simply, of human frailties.

Well on that basis soldier F might well be dead to rights then, might he.

I wasn't suggesting conspiracy, what I was suggesting tho was that a lot of responsibility was put on peoples shoulders which may have been mis-placed, but I'm sure that the factors I suggested will now be explored at the trial.

I'm not sure that anything will be conclusive as to motivation, actions might be clarified but whether there will be real clarity is anyone's guess, Have you been following the Deepcut barracks inquests into the deaths of young recruits over the last 15 years or so, the police and the army seem to have made enough mistakes and  cover ups that the truth will never be established unless someone decides to clear their conscience. Although another inquest is now under way.

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