Discussion: is it fair to deny one's VISA application for health issue?

[Aron]

Hello, we know there is a body exam requirement when applying VISA. And if someone was discovered with some serious health issue, then the VISA application might be denied. Is it fair and reasonable?

I am a healthy person,  but I am thinking over this.

Before coming to Australia, I was working and I was covered by national health insurance. However,  the insurance was automatically aborted due to my stop of working there after I came to Oz. Thus, if I get cancer when I am working in Australia, and HOME Affair refused my PR VISA application based on that, then I will have no choice but to go back to my home country( saying my 457 is also expired).

In this circumstance, I can no longer use my health insurance in Australia. And I don't have any health insurance in my home country anymore. This is literally dump a people to die. Is this fair? 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Aron

[Toots]

10 minutes ago, Aron said:

Hello, we know there is a body exam requirement when applying VISA. And if someone was discovered with some serious health issue, then the VISA application might be denied. Is it fair and reasonable?

I am a healthy person,  but I am thinking over this.

Before coming to Australia, I was working and I was covered by national health insurance. However,  the insurance was automatically aborted due to my stop of working there after I came to Oz. Thus, if I get cancer when I am working in Australia, and HOME Affair refused my PR VISA application based on that, then I will have no choice but to go back to my home country( saying my 457 is also expired).

In this circumstance, I can no longer use my health insurance in Australia. And I don't have any health insurance in my home country anymore. This is literally dump a people to die. Is this fair? 

Don't you have a medicare card?  If not you should have private health insurance.

[Aron]

3 minutes ago, Toots said:

Don't you have a medicare card?  If not you should have private health insurance.

Yes I do have one. but if my PR visa application gets refused, the medicare card is also cancelled automatically and I will have to leave Australia within 30 days.  I can't use my Australia private health insurance and the medicare card if I am not in Australia anymore can I?

Edited March 1, 2019 by Aron

[Marisawright]

31 minutes ago, Aron said:

Hello, we know there is a body exam requirement when applying VISA. And if someone was discovered with some serious health issue, then the VISA application might be denied. Is it fair and reasonable?

I am a healthy person,  but I am thinking over this.

Before coming to Australia, I was working and I was covered by national health insurance. However,  the insurance was automatically aborted due to my stop of working there after I came to Oz. Thus, if I get cancer when I am working in Australia, and HOME Affair refused my PR VISA application based on that, then I will have no choice but to go back to my home country( saying my 457 is also expired).

In this circumstance, I can no longer use my health insurance in Australia. And I don't have any health insurance in my home country anymore. This is literally dump a people to die. Is this fair? 

Of course it's fair.  If you come to Australia on a temporary visa, you are supposed to go home at the end of the contract, and therefore you should have considered how your absence from your home country would affect things like pension and health care on your return.  If it would create problems, then you should not have accepted the visa.

Too many people arrive on temporary visas and assume it gives them the right to stay permanently.  It doesn't.   It is possible for some people to apply for PR at the end of the contract, but it is a privilege, not a right, and many many people are unsuccessful. So no one should rely on it.

[Aron]

17 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

Of course it's fair.  If you come to Australia on a temporary visa, you are supposed to go home at the end of the contract, and therefore you should have considered how your absence from your home country would affect things like pension and health care on your return.  If it would create problems, then you should not have accepted the visa.

 Too many people arrive on temporary visas and assume it gives them the right to stay permanently.  It doesn't.   It is possible for some people to apply for PR at the end of the contract, but it is a privilege, not a right, and many many people are unsuccessful. So no one should rely on it.

The law and rule defines this way does not mean it is fair and reasonable.

I cannot come up with any reason that sending back a patient to his own birth country to die is fair. Especially after that patient has maintained health insurance in Australia, and you don't give him a chance to use it to survive here.

Workers come to Australia not to just take advantage of Australia, but also contribute here.

[Marisawright]

31 minutes ago, Aron said:

Workers come to Australia not to just take advantage of Australia, but also contribute here.

If workers come to Australia on a temporary visa, it is up to the worker to consider how it will affect him when he moves back to his own country, and take appropriate steps. 

If someone comes to Australia on a short-term visa knowing it will impact his medical cover, then he's CHOOSING to take that risk.  Therefore it's not my problem or the Australian taxpayers'.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Marisawright

[Aron]

5 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

If workers come to Australia on a temporary visa, it is up to the worker to consider how it will affect him when he moves back to his own country, and take appropriate steps. 

 If someone comes to Australia on a short-term visa knowing it will impact his medical cover, then he's CHOOSING to take that risk.  Therefore it's not my problem or the Australian taxpayers'.

That  patient paid his tax as well as other temporary workers. If we treat all temporary workers as a group, then this group should be given lenient consideration if someone in this group fall into this miserable circumstance considering the tax this group has paid.

[Aron]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

Of course it's fair.  If you come to Australia on a temporary visa, you are supposed to go home at the end of the contract, and therefore you should have considered how your absence from your home country would affect things like pension and health care on your return.  If it would create problems, then you should not have accepted the visa.

Too many people arrive on temporary visas and assume it gives them the right to stay permanently.  It doesn't.   It is possible for some people to apply for PR at the end of the contract, but it is a privilege, not a right, and many many people are unsuccessful. So no one should rely on it.

And BTW, I want to point out two ideas from me:

1. a rule and a law is this does not mean it is fair.     A government can define any law and any rule. This does not mean the rule and the law is fair. We know in many countries there are many radiculous rules and laws, like in my birth country.

2. people already knew the conditions before they came, and they accepted it and came anyway does not mean the terms and conditions they accepted is fair. For example, why Australia sets up the minimal wage by law? Employers can give a offer of 5 hours per hour pay. If you think it is not good then don't take it. Someone others think they can accept it, they can accept it. Is this fair? They employees does not lie on anything, they make 5 dollar per hour payment clearly on contract and the workers who take the job knows this before they sign the contract. If you call this fair, why government set minimal wage? 

[Marisawright]

12 minutes ago, Aron said:

That  patient paid his tax as well as other temporary workers. If we treat all temporary workers as a group, then this group should be given lenient consideration if someone in this group fall into this miserable circumstance considering the tax this group has paid.

The temporary worker pays his tax while he is in the country, to pay for services like roads, public transport etc that he used while he was in the country.   

[Marisawright]

5 minutes ago, Aron said:

2. people already knew the conditions before they came, and they accepted it and came anyway does not mean the terms and conditions they accepted is fair. 

If they accept it anyway, and they don't think it's fair, then they are stupid aren't they?  

[Aron]

47 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

The temporary worker pays his tax while he is in the country, to pay for services like roads, public transport etc that he used while he was in the country.   

Seriously? Don't forget average income and average tax payment of temporary works are above the average of Australian residences. Because if it is lower and does not meet the market salary standard then their 457 work won't be granted at the first place. So you are saying they are paying higher tax just to use the road services and public transport services?

[Aron]

50 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

 If they accept it anyway, and they don't think it's fair, then they are stupid aren't they?  

It is not about stupidity, it is about fair and protection toward vulnerable group.

If pre-knowing the terms condition and then accept it is already so-called fair, why we have so many Australian labour law in place to protect? why don't we just abandon all the laws and just let employee to work out any contracts as they wish and let works decide to sign or not? If that is already fair enough?

[NickyNook]

1 minute ago, Aron said:

Seriously? Don't forget average income and average tax payment of temporary works are above the average of Australian residences. Because if it is lower and does not meet the market salary standard then their 457 work won't be granted at the first place. So you are saying they are paying higher tax just to use the road services and public transport services?

And to have clean water to drink and a sewage system to keep you healthy and well maintained roads to drive on and air safety and a police service to keep law and order and a fire service to keep you safe and schools for your children and up-to-date hospitals and public libraries and rubbish collection etc etc. In short everything that makes you prefer to live and work here rather than in your home country.

And if you get cancer while working here on a temp visa you can always apply for a Medical Treatment visa to enable you stay longer and use more of your Australian health insurance. 

[Aron]

1 minute ago, NickyNook said:

 And to have clean water to drink and a sewage system to keep you healthy and well maintained roads to drive on and air safety and a police service to keep law and order and a fire service to keep you safe and schools for your children and up-to-date hospitals and public libraries and rubbish collection etc etc. In short everything that makes you prefer to live and work here rather than in your home country.

 And if you get cancer while working here on a temp visa you can always apply for a Medical Treatment visa to enable you stay longer and use more of your Australian health insurance. 

Hi NickyNook,

All that does not change a fact that temporary workers contribute no less than they get from all you mentioned (plus else) stuff. Otherwise why establish the temporary workers schema at the first place if Australia loses more in this? Temporary workers are not refugees.

Thanks for your response and information.  I guess your second part has answered everything:

It is unfair to send back a sick temporary worker to die that way,   that is why  there is Medical Treatment visa to enable sick temp workers to stay longer and use more of the Australian health insurance. I am very happy my concern was taken into consideration by Australian government already.

[LouDYorkie]

Seriously? Don't forget average income and average tax payment of temporary works are above the average of Australian residences.

Unless you declare yourself non-resident for tax purposes or a backpacker, tax is inline with earnings regardless of whether you are a temporary visa holder, permanent visa holder or citizen.

[Quoll]

No its not unfair to follow a process that you were aware of when you entered Australia temporarily. Of course you should go home for treatment where you will have the wider support  of family and friends. That's what temporary means. It's the choice you made.

[Aron]

13 minutes ago, Quoll said:

No its not unfair to follow a process that you were aware of when you entered Australia temporarily. Of course you should go home for treatment where you will have the wider support  of family and friends. That's what temporary means. It's the choice you made.

Hi Quoll, if you read my previous comment,  I don't think pre-knowing the condition equals fair.

If pre-knowing the terms condition and then accept it is already so-called fair, why we have so many Australian labour law in place to protect? why don't we just abandon all the laws and just let employees to work out any contracts as they wish and let workers decide to sign or not? If that is already fair enough? 

Example, If a worker signed the 5 dollar/hour job, no annual leaves, work overtime and no extra payment, as per you this is also fair as no one (except life) forced the man to sign the contract.

 

Yes they have the support of family and friends but without health insurance they lose the chance to live. If they can receive treatment here then their family can come and stay with the patient when he/she receives treatment. And BTW, if you read above comment from NickyNook, actually there is such VISA in Australia to allow people in such condition to continue staying in Australia to receive treatment. which in my opinion this is fair.

 

[Aron]

4 hours ago, LouDYorkie said:

Unless you declare yourself non-resident for tax purposes or a backpacker, tax is inline with earnings regardless of whether you are a temporary visa holder, permanent visa holder or citizen.

The average earning of temporary workers is higher than average earnings of residence. So in average temporary workers pay more tax.

[Marisawright]

7 hours ago, Aron said:

Seriously? Don't forget average income and average tax payment of temporary works are above the average of Australian residences. Because if it is lower and does not meet the market salary standard then their 457 work won't be granted at the first place. So you are saying they are paying higher tax just to use the road services and public transport services?

They are paying higher taxes because they are earning higher wages. 

[Quoll]

5 hours ago, Aron said:

Hi Quoll, if you read my previous comment,  I don't think pre-knowing the condition equals fair.

If pre-knowing the terms condition and then accept it is already so-called fair, why we have so many Australian labour law in place to protect? why don't we just abandon all the laws and just let employees to work out any contracts as they wish and let workers decide to sign or not? If that is already fair enough? 

Example, If a worker signed the 5 dollar/hour job, no annual leaves, work overtime and no extra payment, as per you this is also fair as no one (except life) forced the man to sign the contract.

 

Yes they have the support of family and friends but without health insurance they lose the chance to live. If they can receive treatment here then their family can come and stay with the patient when he/she receives treatment. And BTW, if you read above comment from NickyNook, actually there is such VISA in Australia to allow people in such condition to continue staying in Australia to receive treatment. which in my opinion this is fair.

 

•  

Of course it's fair. Not that that fairness per se should be the issue anyway. You know when you sign up to be a temporary resident that you will be a temporary resident and expect  to return to your home country when your temporary residence is done. If you don't want to do that then don't bother becoming a temporary resident. It wouldn't be fair on the Australian tax payer to foot the bill for a non permanent resident - and now you want to bring your family in to help too. You can get health insurance in your home country if that's what you've had before. One hours that you also have private health insurance in Australia to cover your bills.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Quoll

[VERYSTORMY]

Will also just add, you don't lose the right to NHS care by moving to Oz. Many of us have returned and it isn't an issue. As long as you have some sort of proof you are now back as a resident and not just on holiday, then the NHS is available. I had treatment within a couple of weeks of been home. 

[Aron]

34 minutes ago, Quoll said:

Of course it's fair. Not that that fairness per se should be the issue anyway. You know when you sign up to be a temporary resident that you will be a temporary resident and expect  to return to your home country when your temporary residence is done. If you don't want to do that then don't bother becoming a temporary resident. It wouldn't be fair on the Australian tax payer to foot the bill for a non permanent resident - and now you want to bring your family in to help too. You can get health insurance in your home country if that's what you've had before. One hours that you also have private health insurance in Australia to cover your bills.

"You know when you sign up to be a temporary resident that you will be a temporary resident and expect  to return to your home country when your temporary residence is done. " I totally agree with this.  This is not the subject I want to discuss.

What I want to discuss, is that a temporary worker has been paying tax, medicare levy, medicare surcharge in Australia, and when he applies his PR he got sick, then is it fair to refuse his PR and consequently deprive his chance to use his private health insurance and his medicare which he has paid and maintained. 

You said "It wouldn't be fair on the Australian tax payer to foot the bill for a non permanent residence". Please note, it is not Australia permanent residences to pay for the bill.  We should treat all temporary workers as a group, then this group should be given lenient consideration if someone in this group fall into this miserable circumstance considering the contribution this group has made. If someone pays the medicare bill then it is this group paying for themselves well fare.

Not to mention this temporary workers himself payed tax, paid for this own insurance, paid for medicare levy from his salary. Thus, if home affair directly refuse his PR and send him back to home country to die then it is very unfair as per me. However now I was told by NickyNook  that this person can apply medicare treatment visa to stay in Australia and get treatment, then I feel this is fair.

Not every country offers national health insurance(like medicare ) without conditions. In my birth country, one person has to constantly work for 6 months to be automatically eligible for health insurance. Which is not possible for a very sick person.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Aron

[Aron]

18 minutes ago, VERYSTORMY said:

Will also just add, you don't lose the right to NHS care by moving to Oz. Many of us have returned and it isn't an issue. As long as you have some sort of proof you are now back as a resident and not just on holiday, then the NHS is available. I had treatment within a couple of weeks of been home. 

Not every country offers national health insurance(like medicare ) without conditions. In my birth country, one person has to constantly work for 6 months to be automatically eligible for health insurance. Which is not possible for a very sick person.

 

[Aron]

I am a bit upset to see  that quite some people thinks that a sick temporary worker who seeks medicare treatment is a burden for Australian.  That poor sick person payed for his own insurance!  Should not he feel granted and deserved to receive treatment once he is sick?

Isn't that the purpose of insurance? I paid my health insurance every month and if in my whole life I am healthy and don't get a lot of chance to use my insurance, I won't feel I am robbed by health insurance company.  On the contrary, if I am sick and used my health insurance to treat my diseases, I won't feel shame at all and I won't feel I am taking advantage of the health insurance company, as that is what insurance do!

Why you guys believe a sick temporary worker who has always paid his medicare and his private insurance is a burden and is taking advantage of Australia tax payers?

[Quoll]

Immigration law isn't about fairness. It's a set of rules put in place to cover everyone. A lot of people  are denied pr visas because of medical conditions and  they can whine all  they like but the rules are there to be followed. You seem to think there is an assumption of entitlement to pr just because you've been temporary which is not the case. We would be in a right mess if immigration were governed by emotional blackmail.

I thought the medical treatment visa is for when you aren't fit enough to leave the country and so couldn't be repatriated but would be visa -less if you had to stay. If you're currently on a temporary visa and have health insurance why is there a problem?