Long term outlook for kids

[FirstWorldProblems]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been enjoying reading the posts on this community. It seems like there are a lot of genuine, helpful and balanced people here, from a variety of different backgrounds and perspectives. 

I’m struggling with some parental angst and I would really appreciate the thoughts and inputs from others who have dealt with this before me and come to a decision. 

I suppose some brief background would be helpful here to set the context of my question.  I am British and have enjoyed a wonderful 17 year (and counting) marriage to my wife whom I met whilst living in Sydney in 2001.  We’ve been living in Warwickshire since 2002 and she loves it here, but has a large family back home in Sydney and naturally enough, she misses them a great deal. 

We visit annually and bring her mum out each  summer, but it’s not the same as living nearby with regular in-person contact.  

Since we visit so regularly, we feel we are well aware of the comparative positives and negatives of life in Sydney compared to Warwickshire, and on balance, we don’t consider one to be better than the other, just different.  

Our children are 14 and 11 and it’s their long term future that has us wringing our hands about a potential move back. 

Compared to where we are, cost of living and in particular housing affordability in Sydney is considerably more challenging.  We look at my wife’s 4 siblings, none of whom can afford to own their own home and several of her friends in the same position, and we worry that a decision to move back to Sydney could be really negative for the children once they enter the workforce and try to establish their own lives as adults.  

Of course, we don’t have a crystal ball and cannot know the future, but based on history and  the way things are today, we feel fairly confident that their financial life will be tougher there than here, and as many of us know, financial stress puts an awful lot of pressure upon life, marriages and lifestyle.

Has this been a factor for any of you?  Do you have any experiences you could share with me, positive or negative?

 

thank you in advance. 

[scubacam]

Following! Very interested too

[Marisawright]

3 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Our children are 14 and 11 and it’s their long term future that has us wringing our hands about a potential move back. 

Compared to where we are, cost of living and in particular housing affordability in Sydney is considerably more challenging.  We look at my wife’s 4 siblings, none of whom can afford to own their own home and several of her friends in the same position, and we worry that a decision to move back to Sydney could be really negative for the children once they enter the workforce and try to establish their own lives as adults.  

I think you are right.   I lived in Sydney for over 30 years and there's a lot to love about the place, but nowadays I warn people not to move there.   Many of my Sydney friends have children still in their 30's, living at home because they can't afford a place of their own.   My niece is in her 40's and still renting.

Looking at those children, I think Sydney has had a bad effect on them.   Given the high cost of housing, you might expect them to live frugal lives, saving up madly for their own place.  But my niece tells me that she and her friends feel it's so out of reach, there's no point in even trying.   Besides, to get ahead in a Sydney workplace, you have to look the part, so you need to buy designer suits and have $300 haircuts.  And what's the point of living if you don't enjoy it?  She and her partner will never afford a house, so why not spend their salaries on three or four holidays a year?

Of course, some would say there's nothing to stop the children moving to Melbourne or Perth when they grow up, but I imagine your wife wouldn't want to set up a future where the kids will be forced to move away from home.

What do you do for a living?   Could you consider settling in Newcastle or Canberra, where housing is much more affordable and frequent weekends in Sydney would be practical?  I'm sure your wife has memories of Newcastle as a working-class dump, but it's become quite a vibrant place in recent years.  And personally, I think Canberra gets an unjustifiably bad press. I used to work on projects there a lot when I lived in Sydney, and I really liked it.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Marisawright

[Jon the Hat]

Do you expect your kids to live in Warwickshire?  Unlikely I would have thought, most kids seem to migrate the big cities at the start of their careers, and I doubt that is much different.

I think of moving to Sydney like moving to London - most people don't actually buy a home anywhere near London, and live quite happily in the home counties commuting or indeed working in the multitude of opportunities not in the Central London itself.  Its seems to me Sydney is more focused on commuting into the CBD, but certainly not everyone does.  If you are not imagining you will live in Mosman and have a 15 minute commute by ferry, or on the beach in Manly then I don't see why you shouldn't.

I also rather suspect the kids who cannot afford to buy are being rather selective in where they look.  I doubt it is impossible.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Jon the Hat

[Skani]

8 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I also rather suspect the kids who cannot afford to buy are being rather selective in where they look.  I doubt it is impossible.

Although house prices in Sydney have been falling for the past year, the median house price is still around $1 million dollars.   At the 2016 census the median weekly personal  income for Greater  Sydney was $719.   There has been very little (or no) wage growth since then.   You try getting a $1 million mortgage on  that sort of income - particularly as the median weekly rent of $440 makes it almost impossible to save.

[ramot]

I agree that buying a property in Sydney is out of reach for many, but if you compare like for like in London then it’s equally unaffordable. So many posters seem to be under the unrealistic opinion that they could move to Sydney from small UK towns etc. and buy when they would never move to London because of the cost of housing. There isn’t much difference in the cost of renting or buying there compared to Sydney. 

My daughter in her late 30’s works/rents in Sydney is in a good job, looks smart but doesnt feel the need to  wear designer suits, hairdressers cost about the same by my experience as London. 

I cant comment about where is best for children, but quite a few of my daughters friends in their 40’s seem to be moving away from city living, ready for a quieter life.

[s713]

London is much more affordable than Sydney. And London commuter-belt is a much more desirable location than NSW sticks. One of the main drivers for us moving away from Australia is I am sick of living in the middle of nowhere because that's all that is either affordable or actually worth it. I'm not getting a multi-million dollar millstone around my neck for anyone, not with the way they run the economy over here.

[FirstWorldProblems]

41 minutes ago, ramot said:

I agree that buying a property in Sydney is out of reach for many, but if you compare like for like in London then it’s equally unaffordable. So many posters seem to be under the unrealistic opinion that they could move to Sydney from small UK towns etc. and buy when they would never move to London because of the cost of housing. There isn’t much difference in the cost of renting or buying there compared to Sydney. 

 

I’m not sure that you read my original post, or perhaps it wasn’t clearly written. I possess no such unrealistic opinion. I am perfectly aware of the cost difference between my English town in the middle of the country and the suburbs of the most populous city in Australia.  

If you read my actual question you will see that comparing London and Sydney is a moot point. I have a very specific decision to make - Stay in my town here in England or move to be near the wife’s large family in Sydney (specifically the Hills district in the west).  I can afford to live there, though certainly our standard of living would take a hit and ability to save for a nice retirement would be impacted, but that’s not my chief concern. My worry is, in doing so, do I lock the kids into an untenable financial future by establishing their lives there. 

As an aside, your comparisons with London don’t work in my opinion. If you can’t afford a home in London you move away and work elsewhere or commute in. Indeed I’m sat on the train right now heading home after going to London to meet friends for dinner. 

Thats not an option in Sydney. Even 2 or 3 hours commute out of the CBD the median house price is still 10 times median wage. 

I can’t fathom how they are going to be able to thrive there as adults. I’m very eager to be wrong and I’m looking to understand how to avoid that for them. 

[FirstWorldProblems]

3 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I think you are right.   I lived in Sydney for over 30 years and there's a lot to love about the place, but nowadays I warn people not to move there.   Many of my Sydney friends have children still in their 30's, living at home because they can't afford a place of their own.   My niece is in her 40's and still renting.

Looking at those children, I think Sydney has had a bad effect on them.   Given the high cost of housing, you might expect them to live frugal lives, saving up madly for their own place.  But my niece tells me that she and her friends feel it's so out of reach, there's no point in even trying.   Besides, to get ahead in a Sydney workplace, you have to look the part, so you need to buy designer suits and have $300 haircuts.  And what's the point of living if you don't enjoy it?  She and her partner will never afford a house, so why not spend their salaries on three or four holidays a year?

Of course, some would say there's nothing to stop the children moving to Melbourne or Perth when they grow up, but I imagine your wife wouldn't want to set up a future where the kids will be forced to move away from home.

What do you do for a living?   Could you consider settling in Newcastle or Canberra, where housing is much more affordable and frequent weekends in Sydney would be practical?  I'm sure your wife has memories of Newcastle as a working-class dump, but it's become quite a vibrant place in recent years.  And personally, I think Canberra gets an unjustifiably bad press. I used to work on projects there a lot when I lived in Sydney, and I really liked it.

Thank you for your considered and comprehensive reply. Much appreciated. 

As you have intimated, the move back for us would be all about family. So it’s down the road from the in-laws or nothing as far as my wife is concerned. Believe me I’ve tried, I’d be quite happy to go to several other parts of the country that I like.  But she (quite rightly) sees no point leaving somewhere we love, where we are well established, for somewhere else where she can’t see her aging mother and nieces and nephews several times a week. 

[Marisawright]

12 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

your comparisons with London don’t work in my opinion. If you can’t afford a home in London you move away and work elsewhere or commute in. Indeed I’m sat on the train right now heading home after going to London to meet friends for dinner. 

Thats not an option in Sydney. Even 2 or 3 hours commute out of the CBD the median house price is still 10 times median wage. 

I can’t fathom how they are going to be able to thrive there as adults. I’m very eager to be wrong and I’m looking to understand how to avoid that for them. 

I think you're misunderstanding Ramot's comment, I think she was responding to Jon the Hat rather than to you.

You are spot-on in your observations.  We often compare Sydney to London, trying to explain to migrants that Sydney prices are astronomical compared to the rest of Australia, just like London prices are to the rest of the UK - but as you point out, there the comparison ends.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

17 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

 But she (quite rightly) sees no point leaving somewhere we love, where we are well established, for somewhere else where she can’t see her aging mother and nieces and nephews several times a week. 

I don't think it's "quite rightly" at all, frankly.  Surely seeing family once a fortnight is preferable to seeing them once a year?    In fact, if you were in Newcastle, you could realistically visit once a week.  I drove to our Newcastle office once a week for a long time, it's not an onerous drive (and there's also the train).    And I'm sure the lure of Newcastle's great beach would tempt her nieces to visit.   However, I do understand that homesickness is not logical, especially when it has been festering for a long time.  

Edited February 28, 2019 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Do you expect your kids to live in Warwickshire?  Unlikely I would have thought, most kids seem to migrate the big cities at the start of their careers, and I doubt that is much different.

I think of moving to Sydney like moving to London - most people don't actually buy a home anywhere near London, and live quite happily in the home counties commuting or indeed working in the multitude of opportunities not in the Central London itself.  Its seems to me Sydney is more focused on commuting into the CBD, but certainly not everyone does.  If you are not imagining you will live in Mosman and have a 15 minute commute by ferry, or on the beach in Manly then I don't see why you shouldn't.

I also rather suspect the kids who cannot afford to buy are being rather selective in where they look.  I doubt it is impossible.

Of course they don't expect the kids to live in Warwickshire, but chances are they will get jobs in London, so wherever they settle, it won't be far away.  

The difference between Sydney and London is that in Sydney, there are no "home counties".  The outer edges of Sydney are mostly charmless dormitory suburbs, with no sense of community, populated by bogans (chavs).   There are small pockets which are exceptions, but of course the prices are higher.  My niece tried moving out to Liverpool when she and her partner wanted to start a family, but she didn't stay long.  Boring, stifling hot, faceless, with none of the beauty that makes Sydney so attractive to visitors. She's a Sydneysider born and bred and she couldn't stand it.

I moved to Melbourne for the same reason. I know Sydney well, having lived there 30 years.  I can no longer afford to live in a suburb that I could tolerate.  If I'm forced to live far from the city, then there's no sense being in Sydney at all - I might as well live in Slough.  So I've come to Melbourne, where (though still a bit pricey), I can afford the kind of lifestyle I used to have in Sydney.

[unzippy]

The world is changing - I think the expectation "You need to own a property" that is held by the older generations is fading.

[ramot]

1 hour ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I’m not sure that you read my original post, or perhaps it wasn’t clearly written. I possess no such unrealistic opinion. I am perfectly aware of the cost difference between my English town in the middle of the country and the suburbs of the most populous city in Australia.  

If you read my actual question you will see that comparing London and Sydney is a moot point. I have a very specific decision to make - Stay in my town here in England or move to be near the wife’s large family in Sydney (specifically the Hills district in the west).  I can afford to live there, though certainly our standard of living would take a hit and ability to save for a nice retirement would be impacted, but that’s not my chief concern. My worry is, in doing so, do I lock the kids into an untenable financial future by establishing their lives there. 

As an aside, your comparisons with London don’t work in my opinion. If you can’t afford a home in London you move away and work elsewhere or commute in. Indeed I’m sat on the train right now heading home after going to London to meet friends for dinner. 

Thats not an option in Sydney. Even 2 or 3 hours commute out of the CBD the median house price is still 10 times median wage. 

I can’t fathom how they are going to be able to thrive there as adults. I’m very eager to be wrong and I’m looking to understand how to avoid that for them. 

Whoops didn’t mean any offence, I think I was more responding to other posts. I am not the sort of poster who ever intends any upset having been a member for more years than most who replied,, and when you have been have been on PIO longer you will realise posts go a bit off track, it’s quite normal.

I wish you nothing but good wishes for whatever decision you make.Won’t comment again

Edited February 28, 2019 by ramot

[Quoll]

7 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I’m not sure that you read my original post, or perhaps it wasn’t clearly written. I possess no such unrealistic opinion. I am perfectly aware of the cost difference between my English town in the middle of the country and the suburbs of the most populous city in Australia.  

If you read my actual question you will see that comparing London and Sydney is a moot point. I have a very specific decision to make - Stay in my town here in England or move to be near the wife’s large family in Sydney (specifically the Hills district in the west).  I can afford to live there, though certainly our standard of living would take a hit and ability to save for a nice retirement would be impacted, but that’s not my chief concern. My worry is, in doing so, do I lock the kids into an untenable financial future by establishing their lives there. 

As an aside, your comparisons with London don’t work in my opinion. If you can’t afford a home in London you move away and work elsewhere or commute in. Indeed I’m sat on the train right now heading home after going to London to meet friends for dinner. 

Thats not an option in Sydney. Even 2 or 3 hours commute out of the CBD the median house price is still 10 times median wage. 

I can’t fathom how they are going to be able to thrive there as adults. I’m very eager to be wrong and I’m looking to understand how to avoid that for them. 

Personally, I think your concerns are quite valid. I guess it rather depends on what your kids want to do with their lives - you trek them to Australia, they could, like one of mine end up back in UK where his future turned out to be considerably brighter than if he'd have stayed in Australia (owns his own home in London). Equally, if you stay in Warwickshire, once they've done with a good UK education the world will be their oyster and they could find themselves in Australia at some point - or Canada or anywhere else from Alaska to Zanzibar for that matter.

You're right to be worrying about your own longer  term future too - earning enough for a comfortable retirement they reckon takes about 40 years of work and the pressure is certainly on for independence in retirement not relying on Centrelink benefits. Also, as far as moving goes - I have no idea how old you are but there have been several posts on here of  late about how hard it is to crack into the workforce when you're late 40s and over 50 is over the hill.

That said, if your wife's mental health is suffering because she's in the wrong place then sometimes you just have to stuck it up to make it better. Sydney would be way down the list of my choices though.

[newjez]

7 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I’m not sure that you read my original post, or perhaps it wasn’t clearly written. I possess no such unrealistic opinion. I am perfectly aware of the cost difference between my English town in the middle of the country and the suburbs of the most populous city in Australia.  

If you read my actual question you will see that comparing London and Sydney is a moot point. I have a very specific decision to make - Stay in my town here in England or move to be near the wife’s large family in Sydney (specifically the Hills district in the west).  I can afford to live there, though certainly our standard of living would take a hit and ability to save for a nice retirement would be impacted, but that’s not my chief concern. My worry is, in doing so, do I lock the kids into an untenable financial future by establishing their lives there. 

As an aside, your comparisons with London don’t work in my opinion. If you can’t afford a home in London you move away and work elsewhere or commute in. Indeed I’m sat on the train right now heading home after going to London to meet friends for dinner. 

Thats not an option in Sydney. Even 2 or 3 hours commute out of the CBD the median house price is still 10 times median wage. 

I can’t fathom how they are going to be able to thrive there as adults. I’m very eager to be wrong and I’m looking to understand how to avoid that for them. 

If you are going to move, now is the time to do it, as your kids are about to enter a critical education window. Are your kids academic? That may prove a big factor in your plans.

[FirstWorldProblems]

8 hours ago, ramot said:

Whoops didn’t mean any offence, I think I was more responding to other posts. I am not the sort of poster who ever intends any upset having been a member for more years than most who replied,, and when you have been have been on PIO longer you will realise posts go a bit off track, it’s quite normal.

I wish you nothing but good wishes for whatever decision you make.Won’t comment again

Thank you for the well wishes, But please, don’t hold off on commenting. I came here looking for help and other perspectives on something that is a real quandary for us right now. My apologies if I misunderstood your point. It’s sometimes difficult to take on the intended tone over the internet.  

 

Best wishes. 

[FirstWorldProblems]

2 hours ago, newjez said:

If you are going to move, now is the time to do it, as your kids are about to enter a critical education window. Are your kids academic? That may prove a big factor in your plans.

I thinks that is right, there is a window of opportunity right now that will close soon if we aren’t to put added stress on their education. Hence the hand wringing.   The elder one is smart but academically lazy. Scores high in everything, minimal effort (infuriating for parents trying to impart a strong work ethic). The younger is the polar opposite.  Lovely personality, works hard, has extra tuition and just scrapes by. 

[FirstWorldProblems]

13 hours ago, Marisawright said:

Looking at those children, I think Sydney has had a bad effect on them.   Given the high cost of housing, you might expect them to live frugal lives, saving up madly for their own place.  But my niece tells me that she and her friends feel it's so out of reach, there's no point in even trying.   Besides, to get ahead in a Sydney workplace, you have to look the part, so you need to buy designer suits and have $300 haircuts.  And what's the point of living if you don't enjoy it?  She and her partner will never afford a house, so why not spend their salaries on three or four holidays a year?

 

I've been thinking over this point ever since you posted it.  As much as I feel I have a good grip on all of the pro's and con's on life in Sydney, I do recognise that my lens for everything is through the filter of my wife's large extended family and friends.  I've observed exactly what you are talking about and it's been growing like a snowball over the past 17 years.  I'd describe it as an apparent obsession with showing off, living beyond your means to constantly outdo the last persons christening party/wedding/car/holiday etc.  but I must say, I'd dismissed it as being something peculiar to their culture (mostly Catholic Lebanese).   From your post, it seems its more pervasive.

As a mid-40's guy from a (very) working class background, I'd imagine I grew up like many people here, frugal lifestyle, 10 year old family car, holiday was an occasional week in a caravan in Wales, not a credit card in sight and the only debt being the mortgage.

I realise I'm going a little off-topic somewhat, but this normalisation of debt does worry me.  Of course it happens in England to, but it's nothing like the extent I've observed in our family/social circle in Sydney.  I'd like to think that the example we've set for our children would win out, but the lure of "everyone else does it" can be strong.....

[FirstWorldProblems]

I'd like to thank everyone for being so generous with their time and sharing your perspective and experiences with me.  It's very good of you to help out some stranger on the internet and every one of them is useful to us.  Please do keep them coming if you have more insights.  

In my original post, I didn't want to bore you with every detail of our life and history, which probably resulted in leaving out some relevant information that would have been useful.  To answer some of those questions raised:

- we're closing in on mid 40's

- work wise I am in public sector IT.  So yes, I could probably be located anywhere in Australia, since a comparable level role would see me have to take on an Asia-Pac territory, meaning a lot of travel and not being chained to wherever Australia's head office is located.  This is a significant lifestyle compromise, compared to now, which is why I don't really want to compromise further by not setting up home near to the family.  

[newjez]

6 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I'd like to thank everyone for being so generous with their time and sharing your perspective and experiences with me.  It's very good of you to help out some stranger on the internet and every one of them is useful to us.  Please do keep them coming if you have more insights.  

In my original post, I didn't want to bore you with every detail of our life and history, which probably resulted in leaving out some relevant information that would have been useful.  To answer some of those questions raised:

- we're closing in on mid 40's

- work wise I am in public sector IT.  So yes, I could probably be located anywhere in Australia, since a comparable level role would see me have to take on an Asia-Pac territory, meaning a lot of travel and not being chained to wherever Australia's head office is located.  This is a significant lifestyle compromise, compared to now, which is why I don't really want to compromise further by not setting up home near to the family.  

Would you consider Canberra? I've a west coast person, but I imagine property is cheaper, schools will be better, and employment would be better than Sydney. It's not that far from Sydney. You could see family once a month.

[Quoll]

3 hours ago, newjez said:

Would you consider Canberra? I've a west coast person, but I imagine property is cheaper, schools will be better, and employment would be better than Sydney. It's not that far from Sydney. You could see family once a month.

Property is still very expensive and, much as I am a Canberran and I defend it, my concern with Canberra would be employment. It's very much a PS town and the bulk of positions require citizenship and for someone in their mid 40s who isn't a citizen, there could be a challenge to get into the workforce if their background is public service IT.

Canberra also has a very high percentage of HS private school kids (the Ed Dept claims is because parents are wealthy and up themselves but it's probably more because they don't like the gov school options) so education could be a bit hmm. 

But if you have to live anywhere in Australia, it's not that bad a place to be.

[Marisawright]

13 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I've been thinking over this point ever since you posted it. ...  I've observed exactly what you are talking about and it's been growing like a snowball over the past 17 years.  I'd describe it as an apparent obsession with showing off, living beyond your means to constantly outdo the last persons christening party/wedding/car/holiday etc. 

That's Sydney in a nutshell!   It's one of the things I like about living in Melbourne - to my surprise, that attitude is much less pervasive here. 

However I do fear that it's a malaise that is sweeping through the whole of society, so maybe it's only a matter of time before everywhere else catches up with Sydney...

[Marisawright]

13 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

- work wise I am in public sector IT.  So yes, I could probably be located anywhere in Australia, since a comparable level role would see me have to take on an Asia-Pac territory, meaning a lot of travel and not being chained to wherever Australia's head office is located.  This is a significant lifestyle compromise, compared to now, which is why I don't really want to compromise further by not setting up home near to the family.  

When you say you could be located anywhere in Australia, is that because you think you could work from home?   If not, then I'd recommend doing some more research into work possibilities. 

The Australian head offices of most companies are overwhelmingly in Sydney.   If companies still have an IT centre in Australia, it's usually in Sydney.    So I suspect that to get a job at a senior level, you'd need to be in Sydney anyway.  Though in my experience, senior roles in Asia-Pac are more commonly based in Singapore now, not in Australia at all.   However I'm not an IT person, I'm just thinking of the IT departments of some of the multi-nationals I've worked for, so do your own research.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Marisawright

[Skani]

31 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

That's Sydney in a nutshell!   ..... so maybe it's only a matter of time before everywhere else catches up with Sydney...

No....Sydney has been like that for as long as I can remember - and I worked there in the 1960s.   I always think of it as a brash, ostentatious woman - flaunting the gaudiest hats and throwing the most extravagant parties.  The Los Angeles of Australia.     Maybe it's never recovered from being overlooked as the capital of Australia -  its rightful position in its opinion - and has to overcompensate.