Child's dad said no

[Aaronandvanessa]

We want to emigrate to Australia and have done for a long time now. The reason for the move is for a fresh start and a better work life balance in order to spend more time together as a family due to the long hours we work here in the UK. We have two children a girl aged 8 from a previous relationship and our son whose soon turning 4. We've explained to her about wanting move to Australia and wrote down pros and cons and also made her a slide to better understand what it would mean. We also asked her what would make her happy and sad about the move so we could write it down. We've looked into housing,work,schooling,wages etc to find out how often we could return her to the UK to see her father and other family. Spoke daughters dad and asked him now he would feel about this and even said that we are more than happy for him and his family to fly out and stay with us for holidays as well us returning his daughter  along with daily contact with such things as Skype and WhatsApp. However he is adiment against this or any proposal we have tried to make. He currently has a girlfriend and they have 3 children and one on the way (only two children are his). He currently sees his daughter from a Friday to Sunday every two weeks. He's moved around 45 minutes away and has started making excuses about picking her up and dropping her off which mean him asking us to make the travel. He has not payed any maintainance since January this year and has only ever paid it for no more then two years. Our daughter talks about his girlfriend, her sister and step siblings more than her father, she had never been his first priority but none the less she enjoys spending time there. 

Has anyone had any experience with this before? Court is our last option. What's the likelyness of a court granting us permission?

 

Thanks 

[ali]

You will have to prove to the court that it is in your daughters best interest to remove her from her father, sister and step siblings - there are a few threads on here - I don't know the percentage rate of being given permission to remove the child.  if your ex doesn't give permission then court is your only option.

I love life in Australia, but to be honest you work just as many hours and just as hard and finding a work life balance can in reality be a little difficult when you first move.

[Marisawright]

You'll find several people here who have gone to court and been successful, but everyone is different so it's not really possible to draw any conclusions.  

Like Ali, I like living in  Australia but if I'd been hoping to work less hours or have a better work/life balance, I'd have gone back to the UK disappointed a long time ago (fortunately I've retired now, so it's no longer an issue).

Australians work some of the longest hours in the developed world.  Even our official working week is longer than the UK (an extra half hour a day), but in the big companies, there's a culture of working unpaid overtime, and you'll miss out on bonuses and promotions if you're not seen to be at your desk after knock-off time. 

If you're looking at Sydney or Melbourne, then be aware that the population gives a false impression of how far those cities sprawl.  The average wage-earner in Sydney now lives an hour's commute from work, and one to two hours' drive from the nearest beach (and they can't find parking once they get there). Use Google Maps to look at commute times and make sure you select peak times and days when you do so. 

I can understand the attraction of a fresh start with a $%)% of an ex-husband hanging around, but honestly you stand more chance of achieving a more laidback lifestyle by moving to a quieter part of the UK than moving to Australia, and it will be a lot easier and less stressful.

https://www.careerfaqs.com.au/news/news-and-views/australians-work-longest-hours

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Marisawright

[rammygirl]

The first question is do you or your partner qualify for a visa? No point discussing anything if you can’t get a PR visa. 

[Guest The Pom Queen]

As others have mentioned make sure you can get a visa first. Preferably PR.

I had to go to the courts to get an order which allowed my child to come to Australia. My case was a lot different, serious physical assault and abuse, restraining order with a power of arrest etc. He had never seen his son or tried to in years, but as soon as he knew we were going he said he would kill us both before letting us go. These weren’t just verbal threats he had tried it before. We were successful with our application. They didn’t even request we kept in touch with him. 

‘If your daughter has a bond with her father it could be hard going, although we were told that they always keep the child with the mother where possible (no I don’t think this is fair, it should be done on a case by case basis) but try to keep the family together and they class any step children as family. 

You need to prove to the courts that it is a better life out here for your daughter, that by denying your daughter a leave of jurisdiction it would have a impact on your family and son. You need to create a document that contains, work prospects, wages, Suburbs, rentals, schools, even how much school fees are etc. You also have to write down how you will get the child to keep in touch with the father, ie setting them up with a Skype account, email address, agreeing for her to travel back to the UK for school holidays etc.

Something else to consider is that the rules are more insane here, for example if you and your current partner come over here and split up your partner can stop you returning back to the UK with the children. We have a few members who are stuck here in limbo, their partners have run off with with another woman and the poor mums are left as single mums alone with no family or support.

[Quoll]

You could, of course, leave your daughter with her dad and you come and visit her or have her visit you for holidays if you are desperate to go.

[Tulip1]

It sounds like she has an ongoing relationship with her dad and her new extended family that she gets a lot of enjoyment from.   It's hardly surprising he's said no, what would you say if he said they planned on moving to the other side of the world and was taking the daughter with them, would you give consent?  The maintenance part is totally separate to the relationship. If you're not getting that then there are relevant bodies in place who will work with you to ensure that it is paid.  It's not relevant in this issue.  You say it will be better for her, how can having a very restrictive relationship with her father be better than having what she has now. You can talk about Skype and phone calls and that annual visit but be under no illusion those things are nothing compared to spending those weekends with her dad and family. Would you be happy to see your daughter once a year? If the answers no why do you think it's ok for her father.  As has been suggested, you could leave her here with her father and you go.  The better work/life balance argument is rubbish, you will work just as long hours in Oz. I think you will have a very hard time convincing a judge that it is better for your child to be taken away from her father. You are talking about the difference between living in one first world country or another first world country.  No country can make up for a parent/child relationship and I'm sure the courts will see that.  You are both equal parents and whilst your relationship didn't work out and you are not together you are still both parents. Do you honestly  think that taking her away from one of the parents is right? 

[Aaronandvanessa]

7 hours ago, rammygirl said:

The first question is do you or your partner qualify for a visa? No point discussing anything if you can’t get a PR visa. 

Of course, or we wouldn't have wasted our time researching the move, or asking for some general advice on here. 

[Aaronandvanessa]

6 hours ago, The Pom Queen said:

As others have mentioned make sure you can get a visa first. Preferably PR.

I had to go to the courts to get an order which allowed my child to come to Australia. My case was a lot different, serious physical assault and abuse, restraining order with a power of arrest etc. He had never seen his son or tried to in years, but as soon as he knew we were going he said he would kill us both before letting us go. These weren’t just verbal threats he had tried it before. We were successful with our application. They didn’t even request we kept in touch with him. 

‘If your daughter has a bond with her father it could be hard going, although we were told that they always keep the child with the mother where possible (no I don’t think this is fair, it should be done on a case by case basis) but try to keep the family together and they class any step children as family. 

You need to prove to the courts that it is a better life out here for your daughter, that by denying your daughter a leave of jurisdiction it would have a impact on your family and son. You need to create a document that contains, work prospects, wages, Suburbs, rentals, schools, even how much school fees are etc. You also have to write down how you will get the child to keep in touch with the father, ie setting them up with a Skype account, email address, agreeing for her to travel back to the UK for school holidays etc.

Something else to consider is that the rules are more insane here, for example if you and your current partner come over here and split up your partner can stop you returning back to the UK with the children. We have a few members who are stuck here in limbo, their partners have run off with with another woman and the poor mums are left as single mums alone with no family or support.

Thank you for your response, you had provided us with some really useful information. I'm sorry to hear what you have been through, but glad to hear the courts were supportive in your case. 

Yeah, I understand that it may be hard going, and I have my daughter's best interests at heart, which is why we have outlined all the pros and cons in order to get her to understand what the move will mean for her, as she is young, I don't think she will properly understand until it has happened. Of course I agree. 

That is definitely something I wasn't aware of, so I definitely think I need to do more research into what it may mean If the move is possible. Thanks for outlining that.  

[Aaronandvanessa]

5 hours ago, Quoll said:

You could, of course, leave your daughter with her dad and you come and visit her or have her visit you for holidays if you are desperate to go.

Unfortunately, she comes home after the two days at her dads lacking basic hygiene such as bathing, washing hair, brushing teeth etc. Also with uncompleted homework, and on previous occasions has been dropped off and picked up from school late, so leaving her with her dad wouldn't be an option for me. 

[JetBlast]

Of course, or we wouldn't have wasted our time researching the move, or asking for some general advice on here. 

It might seems obvious but many people who post on here haven't checked the basics first.

[ali]

14 minutes ago, Aaronandvanessa said:

Unfortunately, she comes home after the two days at her dads lacking basic hygiene such as bathing, washing hair, brushing teeth etc. Also with uncompleted homework, and on previous occasions has been dropped off and picked up from school late, so leaving her with her dad wouldn't be an option for me. 

I wouldn't base your evidence on what you feel your partner doesn't do (it makes it sound like the reason your wanting to move is to get her away from him … is that the fresh start you meant?)  - but why removing your daughter from her father/siblings and ? extended family  is better for her.  

Being devils advocate - whilst you're doing the pros and cons with your 8 year old - you desperately want to move - what if you can't afford to send her back each year to see her dad?  What if she gets there and says "I want to stay".  

[Aaronandvanessa]

1 hour ago, Tulip1 said:

It sounds like she has an ongoing relationship with her dad and her new extended family that she gets a lot of enjoyment from.   It's hardly surprising he's said no, what would you say if he said they planned on moving to the other side of the world and was taking the daughter with them, would you give consent?  The maintenance part is totally separate to the relationship. If you're not getting that then there are relevant bodies in place who will work with you to ensure that it is paid.  It's not relevant in this issue.  You say it will be better for her, how can having a very restrictive relationship with her father be better than having what she has now. You can talk about Skype and phone calls and that annual visit but be under no illusion those things are nothing compared to spending those weekends with her dad and family. Would you be happy to see your daughter once a year? If the answers no why do you think it's ok for her father.  As has been suggested, you could leave her here with her father and you go.  The better work/life balance argument is rubbish, you will work just as long hours in Oz. I think you will have a very hard time convincing a judge that it is better for your child to be taken away from her father. You are talking about the difference between living in one first world country or another first world country.  No country can make up for a parent/child relationship and I'm sure the courts will see that.  You are both equal parents and whilst your relationship didn't work out and you are not together you are still both parents. Do you honestly  think that taking her away from one of the parents is right? 

Well, this post was created to gain some advice from people who have been in a similar situation as ours. There is only so much information that can be provided on here without writing our whole life story out. 

Please don't be patronising as if to say we have not considered how we would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and she was being the one taken away to another country, it would be naive to think her father would be jumping with excitement. 

The maintenance may be a totally separate issue, but I am providing a small amount of insight into what my daughter's father actually does for her himself. I think as a parent with their childs best interests at heart, they would want the best possibility at a better life for their child, & if the other parent can offer that then why deny your child that chance. 

He has told me to leave her with him, and go to Australia without her, so if he can have her full time, then why does he not have her more often now. This Is a man who lived at his mums house on the same street as her school, and in 3 years has only taken and picked her up a handful of times, regardless of me asking him to share so of the responsibility more often, and who also has dropped her off and picked her up late. If I can manage every day to get her to school on time and pick her up so should he. 

That as well as previous comments I have outlined, such as lack of hygiene (me having to send her with a toothbrush as she never had one) also repeatedly coming back with headlice, not having any clothes there only the ones I have provided and that have not been returned, and no bed to sleep in as she told me she slept on a beanbag. So do you think this is acceptable and me being a responsible parent leaving her with her father full time?

Maybe we worded the work life balance wrong. What we meant was.. that our children love being outdoors, and the weather in Australia offers us more opportunity to be outdoors with our children, rather than constantly being cooped up in play houses for the 8 months it rains in the UK. We know of a couple and a few people who have moved to Oz and have said it was the best choice they ever made, and made us aware that the first 12 months wouldn't be easy going, but thereafter would definitely be worth it.

Whilst taking her away from her father isn't an easy decision we take lightly, it is one we are willing to consider if we believe It will be a better outcome for our children in the long run. & our son is also not going to be seeing his family, so we also have to consider how he would be impacted too. It is a big decision for everyone, and I don't think asking me the question "do you think taking her away from one of her parents is right?" Is the real question here. The question is, do you think taking my child to another country will be more beneficial for her than her staying in the UK, and the answer is yes, I really do. 

 

 

 

[Marisawright]

19 minutes ago, Aaronandvanessa said:

Whilst taking her away from her father isn't an easy decision we take lightly, it is one we are willing to consider if we believe It will be a better outcome for our children in the long run. & our son is also not going to be seeing his family, so we also have to consider how he would be impacted too. It is a big decision for everyone, and I don't think asking me the question "do you think taking her away from one of her parents is right?" Is the real question here. The question is, do you think taking my child to another country will be more beneficial for her than her staying in the UK, and the answer is yes, I really do. 

The trouble is, "do you think taking her away from one of her parents is right?" is the question the courts will be asking.  

[Aaronandvanessa]

26 minutes ago, ali said:

I wouldn't base your evidence on what you feel your partner doesn't do (it makes it sound like the reason your wanting to move is to get her away from him … is that the fresh start you meant?)  - but why removing your daughter from her father/siblings and ? extended family  is better for her.  

Being devils advocate - whilst you're doing the pros and cons with your 8 year old - you desperately want to move - what if you can't afford to send her back each year to see her dad?  What if she gets there and says "I want to stay".  

The move is most definitely not to get away from him, if anything it would be amazing for him and his family to turn around and say.. oh yeah we would love to move over to Oz too, so it could be a win win for us all, but unfortunately to our despair that's not the case. 

Our fresh start is in regards to new people, new surroundings, and a chance to start again, as a lot of things have happened here which we feel continue to weigh us down. For all we know we may move and feel we may the wrong decision, but we do not want to live the rest of our life wondering what if. I don't think removing her from her father and siblings would be better for her, I just feel as a family we would all benefit more from the move if that makes sense. 

Once we have figured out our finances from work and all our outgoings, if we cannot guarantee her return every year, then I would not want to go. That would be our first and main priority. I would never worry about her saying she didn't want to return, as I know how much she loves her dad and extended family and would look forward to seeing them again, regardless of my views, they are mine and I have always allowed her to make her own mind up. 

 

[Aaronandvanessa]

8 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

The trouble is, "do you think taking her away from one of her parents is right?" is the question the courts will be asking.  

I hope that isn't a question the court focuses on, because although that would be the outcome that isn't the reason for the move. I don't think taking her away from one of her parents is right, but I do believe over time moving will be more benefical for her happiness as well as our families. It's a catch 22 for me as staying means never getting the chance at new beginnings which has amazing opportunities for my family as a whole, and leaving means I'm taking my child away from her father and other siblings, which would cause a lot of upset. 

[unzippy]

13 hours ago, Aaronandvanessa said:

 The reason for the move is for a fresh start and a better work life balance in order to spend more time together as a family due to the long hours we work here in the UK.

I agree about the fresh start - good idea.  But I haven't noticed a better work life balance here in Aus...

You may want to rethink that as a reason for moving.

 

Godd luck anyway!

[calNgary]

5 hours ago, Aaronandvanessa said:

 

Maybe we worded the work life balance wrong. What we meant was.. that our children love being outdoors, and the weather in Australia offers us more opportunity to be outdoors with our children, rather than constantly being cooped up in play houses for the 8 months it rains in the UK. We know of a couple and a few people who have moved to Oz and have said it was the best choice they ever made, and made us aware that the first 12 months wouldn't be easy going, but thereafter would definitely be worth it.

 

 

 

 

Good luck with the ex, i hope you can both come to solution without it getting nasty.

As for your reasons above, we felt the same before we moved and have no regrets yet as we creep towards the 12 years here mark. We loved being able to explore new places at weekends and were and are still amazed at the difference in scenery you can find within a relatively short distance. One thing Aus has in abundance (or at least QLD) are amazing adventure parks for the kids, there are lots dotted around with some great climbing frames, slides and rope courses for the kids, the fact they are free is just another bonus,lol.

 

 Cal x

[can1983]

Please rethink the move. Its not a better life here (especially if you have no connection to the country) and trying to deny a father who wants to see their child regular access is cruel (even if you get past the legalities of it).

From his point of view the promise of an annual visit is just that - a promise, you could just change your mind. Once a child is removed legally the remaining parent has no way to get them back.

I've seen so many people move here waving the willy wonker golden ticket as they arrive thinking they've made it big only to go home disappointed by the reality

 

[Quoll]

I’d be taking the “better weather we’d be outside all the time” with a bit of a pinch of salt as well. It’s just as hard to be outside when the sun is blazing enough to frazzle you and you’re slathered in sunscreen and covered up to stop sunburn. It all depends where you go, of course, but the heat and sunshine can be just as restrictive as the “8 months of rain” that is supposed to pervade Britain (a move to East Anglia might be cheaper and easier, weather isn’t like that here). Aussie kids are wedded to their Wiis just as much as English kids and trawling the malls is a national high school sport. 

[Yorkygirl]

I can answer this from the  child's perspective. Albeit a long time ago now.

In 1970 when I was 10 I emigrated to Australia with my divorced Mum and widowed Grandmother.

To this day - 48 years later -  I resent my parents for allowing this to happen. Although I dearly love both my parents (one either side of the globe!) I also hate them for what they put me through.

The loss of both sides of my family is still heartbreaking.  I doubt I will ever fully come to terms with it.

Facetime/holidays etc won't cut the mustard. I have spent any savings I had/have to travel to the UK to try and have a relationship with my family and yet l am always  the outsider. 

You have the right to be happy of course but not at the expense of your child's. Please don't do it.

 

[Marisawright]

2 minutes ago, Yorkygirl said:

I can answer this from the  child's perspective. Albeit a long time ago now.

In 1970 when I was 10 I emigrated to Australia with my divorced Mum and widowed Grandmother.

To this day - 48 years later -  I resent my parents for allowing this to happen. Although I dearly love both my parents (one either side of the globe!) I also hate them for what they put me through.

The loss of both sides of my family is still heartbreaking.  I doubt I will ever fully come to terms with it.

Facetime/holidays etc won't cut the mustard. I have spent any savings I had/have to travel to the UK to try and have a relationship with my family and yet l am always  the outsider. 

You have the right to be happy of course but not at the expense of your child's. Please don't do it.

 

If I could love this post instead of like it, I would.

[Marisawright]

Here are some old threads covering the process:

[JetBlast]

I can see you're getting upset by some of the responses in this thread. Something to consider is if it goes to court the cross examination will be much more harsh.

[ali]

3 hours ago, Yorkygirl said:

I can answer this from the  child's perspective. Albeit a long time ago now.

In 1970 when I was 10 I emigrated to Australia with my divorced Mum and widowed Grandmother.

To this day - 48 years later -  I resent my parents for allowing this to happen. Although I dearly love both my parents (one either side of the globe!) I also hate them for what they put me through.

The loss of both sides of my family is still heartbreaking.  I doubt I will ever fully come to terms with it.

Facetime/holidays etc won't cut the mustard. I have spent any savings I had/have to travel to the UK to try and have a relationship with my family and yet l am always  the outsider. 

You have the right to be happy of course but not at the expense of your child's. Please don't do it.

 

I know someone who came here with her 2nd partner and daughter - her ex had given permission.  She did say it was hard to keep everything up after a while, remembering to skype, send school reports/photo's .. her biggest fear was that when her daughter was older, she would ask why her daddy didn't love her enough to make her want to stay - but the reality was he didn't want to put his daughter through a court battle.