Australia is overtaking the UK as the world's second biggest destination for international students

[Cerberus1]

Australia is overtaking the UK as the world's second biggest destination for international students, says research from University College London.

Researchers at UCL's Centre for Global Higher Education say the UK is being pushed into third place behind the United States and Australia.

Australia has been rapidly expanding its international student numbers.

The British Council says it shows the UK needs to "look again" at its policies towards overseas students.

An analysis this year found that overseas students added £20bn to the UK's economy - and universities in the UK have warned that immigration rules after Brexit will need to be more welcoming for students.

The UCL study has tracked the latest movements in international students and report author Professor Simon Marginson says Australia is moving ahead of the UK.

He warns that Canada is also catching up in taking a growing slice of the lucrative overseas student market.

Three years ago the UK was recruiting around 130,000 more overseas students than Australia, says Prof Marginson, who is also co-chair of the Higher Education Commission's current inquiry into international students.

But he says successive years of Australia having increases of 12% to 14% in overseas students have seen it catch up and overtake the UK, which has been growing much more slowly.

Official student figures for 2018 from the UN's education agency, Unesco, will not be published until after the end of this year.

But the UCL researchers are "certain" that Australia is on the verge of moving ahead of the UK in overseas students and this "may have already happened".

"UK higher education is still highly valued internationally, but the government has held down the growth of international student numbers for five years, by limiting new student numbers and post-study work visas," says Prof Marginson.

"Meanwhile, competitor nations are strongly promoting their international education."

Australia has been marketing itself as an English-speaking country with high-performing universities, with an attractive climate and a welcoming culture for overseas students.

This year's Best Student Cities rankings put Melbourne and Sydney in the top 10 - although London was the highest ranked of all.

Australia has succeeded in attracting students from outside Europe, particularly from China.

The research from UCL warns that the UK's future intake of international students will depend on keeping its appeal for European students.

Last week, the government set out post-Brexit plans that would keep open the door to visa-free travel for European Union students coming to UK universities.

But there was no detail on whether EU students would have to pay full international fees.

Universities in the UK have been campaigning for overseas students to be taken out of net migration figures.

A spokeswoman for the British Council said that international students are "an immense source of long-term influence and soft power for the UK".

She said the UK was competing with countries with "welcoming visa policies" and "comprehensive international education strategies".

With the approach of Brexit, she said "it has never been more important to reinforce and open up international channels for the UK".

[s713]

Fair play to them, they'll pull ahead further now the UK is on an isolation path. Shame.

[Amber Snowball]

Having a son in the Australian University system I wouldn’t be rushing to recommend it. Experience of 2 unis in Victoria and they have both been pretty poor.

No idea on current UK University experience but I did my degree 20 odd years ago and it was better run than the tripe we have experienced in Victoria.

Shame because the schooling at primary and secondary level I was really impressed with.

Just a personal view.

[Quoll]

8 hours ago, Amber Snowball said:

Having a son in the Australian University system I wouldn’t be rushing to recommend it. Experience of 2 unis in Victoria and they have both been pretty poor.

No idea on current UK University experience but I did my degree 20 odd years ago and it was better run than the tripe we have experienced in Victoria.

Shame because the schooling at primary and secondary level I was really impressed with.

Just a personal view.

Agree totally.  My sons were considerably underwhelmed with one of Australia's best and a chat, recently, with my nephew who is at Melbourne's best also showed considerable underwhelmment. 

[Toots]

12 hours ago, Quoll said:

Agree totally.  My sons were considerably underwhelmed with one of Australia's best and a chat, recently, with my nephew who is at Melbourne's best also showed considerable underwhelmment. 

I wonder why?  I do know that standards have dropped over the past 30 years or so.  Seems every person and their dog has a degree of some sort or another.  My sons went to Sydney Uni and I've never heard them say anything negative about their experience there.  Both got decent degrees and both have good jobs overseas on the back of those degrees.  One them did a post grad  course and he did say he got fed up of the group work involved.  Apparently it's supposed to motivate students, encourage active learning, and develop key critical-thinking, communication, and decision-making skills.  He said a couple of the students involved seemed to do all the work and the others were hangers-on but still gained the marks involved.

[Quoll]

1 hour ago, Toots said:

I wonder why?  I do know that standards have dropped over the past 30 years or so.  Seems every person and their dog has a degree of some sort or another.  My sons went to Sydney Uni and I've never heard them say anything negative about their experience there.  Both got decent degrees and both have good jobs overseas on the back of those degrees.  One them did a post grad  course and he did say he got fed up of the group work involved.  Apparently it's supposed to motivate students, encourage active learning, and develop key critical-thinking, communication, and decision-making skills.  He said a couple of the students involved seemed to do all the work and the others were hangers-on but still gained the marks involved.

It was the group work that irritated sons and nephew in their first degree. They all got ticked off that they were doing all the work and getting their own scores marked down when others in the group didn’t step up. Hard to do that when you don’t speak English or you’re stoned much of the time. My U.K. based son didn’t get the same credit for his ANU double degree in his career as did one of his colleagues who went to University of London and that ticked him off too but it hasn’t held him back.

Even back 30 odd years ago when I did my Masters in Aus it was much less rigorous than my first degree at UCL but we didn’t have group assignments back then thank goodness.

[Parley]

29 minutes ago, Quoll said:

It was the group work that irritated sons and nephew in their first degree. They all got ticked off that they were doing all the work and getting their own scores marked down when others in the group didn’t step up. Hard to do that when you don’t speak English or you’re stoned much of the time. My U.K. based son didn’t get the same credit for his ANU double degree in his career as did one of his colleagues who went to University of London and that ticked him off too but it hasn’t held him back.

Even back 30 odd years ago when I did my Masters in Aus it was much less rigorous than my first degree at UCL but we didn’t have group assignments back then thank goodness.

That is preparing them for life and the workplace.

In a team, you really all succeed or you all fail together. It is pretty rare to be able to pick your perfect team where everyone is performing at an equally high level.

If someone is really hopeless maybe there are mechanisms to kick them out of the team, but in many cases some people do more to help the team succeed, when someone is struggling.

Intelligence is a bit overrated anyway. Workplaces need people who can work well together with others on projects or whatever. So it is good if there is a greater epahasis on team projects these days at unis.

[Quoll]

10 hours ago, Parley said:

That is preparing them for life and the workplace.

In a team, you really all succeed or you all fail together. It is pretty rare to be able to pick your perfect team where everyone is performing at an equally high level.

If someone is really hopeless maybe there are mechanisms to kick them out of the team, but in many cases some people do more to help the team succeed, when someone is struggling.

Intelligence is a bit overrated anyway. Workplaces need people who can work well together with others on projects or whatever. So it is good if there is a greater epahasis on team projects these days at unis.

True but why should they get their degree when they have done bugger all during their course but tagged along on the coat tails of those who can speak English, stay sober and put hours in the library. Never thought I would hear the socialist argument from you Parley

[Amber Snowball]

12 hours ago, Parley said:

That is preparing them for life and the workplace.

In a team, you really all succeed or you all fail together. It is pretty rare to be able to pick your perfect team where everyone is performing at an equally high level.

If someone is really hopeless maybe there are mechanisms to kick them out of the team, but in many cases some people do more to help the team succeed, when someone is struggling.

Intelligence is a bit overrated anyway. Workplaces need people who can work well together with others on projects or whatever. So it is good if there is a greater epahasis on team projects these days at unis.

I think it depends on the degree/job as how important intelligence is to be honest. My son is doing radiation therapy. I think you want competence, intelligence and a thorough understanding of the treatment and how to apply it more than someone who can play nicely with the other children, although that helps.

Group work is a bug bear but not the biggest issue. Disorganisation, lack of or poor communication and general all over the place-ness of the University have been the larger issues. 

[Parley]

5 hours ago, Quoll said:

True but why should they get their degree when they have done bugger all during their course but tagged along on the coat tails of those who can speak English, stay sober and put hours in the library. Never thought I would hear the socialist argument from you Parley

I hadn't thought of it as socialism. But education was traditionally done solo and then you hit the workplace and expected to work in teams etc.

I think the major employers are probably driving these changes at the unis to get the graduates better prepared for how they will work when employed.

But I agree with you, if there are people coasting along, drunk or on drugs they shouldn't get to ride on the others coat tails. They must get weeded out.

There must sill be some individual projects and exams that those people have to pass. 

I finished my degree in 1985 so I don't really have a clue how it works today. But I won't let that stop me making up an opinion. 

[KBear]

I am wondering if the high numbers of overseas students studying in Australia reflect the fact that many of them obviously use this as a route to gaining permanent residence here.  One agent who posts regularly on here pointed out that there are huge numbers of students from overseas on accountancy courses and many of them have no intention of working as accountants.  However they can gain several extra points due to the fact of having studied at an Australian institution getting up to 80 points in some cases.  This gives them a great advantage over applicants outside Australia who can never achieve such a high score when it comes to being invited to apply for a visa as those with the highest points get invited,  but doing nothing to alleviate the acute shortage of skilled accountants in Australia.   I have a relative who is a highly qualified, skilled and experienced accountant desperate to move to Australia but he doesn't stand a chance of getting invited.

[Guest The Pom Queen]

15 minutes ago, KBear said:

I am wondering if the high numbers of overseas students studying in Australia reflect the fact that many of them obviously use this as a route to gaining permanent residence here.  One agent who posts regularly on here pointed out that there are huge numbers of students from overseas on accountancy courses and many of them have no intention of working as accountants.  However they can gain several extra points due to the fact of having studied at an Australian institution getting up to 80 points in some cases.  This gives them a great advantage over applicants outside Australia who can never achieve such a high score when it comes to being invited to apply for a visa as those with the highest points get invited,  but doing nothing to alleviate the acute shortage of skilled accountants in Australia.   I have a relative who is a highly qualified, skilled and experienced accountant desperate to move to Australia but he doesn't stand a chance of getting invited.

Hi @KBear this is very true and I do know a number of our members who have and still do use the student visa as way to get in to Australia. 

[Amber Snowball]

Just now, The Pom Queen said:

Hi @KBear this is very true and I do know a number of our members who have and still do use the student visa as way to get in to Australia. 

 

18 minutes ago, KBear said:

I am wondering if the high numbers of overseas students studying in Australia reflect the fact that many of them obviously use this as a route to gaining permanent residence here.  One agent who posts regularly on here pointed out that there are huge numbers of students from overseas on accountancy courses and many of them have no intention of working as accountants.  However they can gain several extra points due to the fact of having studied at an Australian institution getting up to 80 points in some cases.  This gives them a great advantage over applicants outside Australia who can never achieve such a high score when it comes to being invited to apply for a visa as those with the highest points get invited,  but doing nothing to alleviate the acute shortage of skilled accountants in Australia.   I have a relative who is a highly qualified, skilled and experienced accountant desperate to move to Australia but he doesn't stand a chance of getting invited.

Never really thought about this, but yes I can see how that would happen. The first course at the first Uni for my son consisted of a lot of trying to communicate in Mandarin. Now how they got on the course I don’t know. International fees obviously talk the University’s language, maybe? 

[Amber Snowball]

8 hours ago, Parley said:

I hadn't thought of it as socialism. But education was traditionally done solo and then you hit the workplace and expected to work in teams etc.

I think the major employers are probably driving these changes at the unis to get the graduates better prepared for how they will work when employed.

But I agree with you, if there are people coasting along, drunk or on drugs they shouldn't get to ride on the others coat tails. They must get weeded out.

There must sill be some individual projects and exams that those people have to pass. 

I finished my degree in 1985 so I don't really have a clue how it works today. But I won't let that stop me making up an opinion. 

You are probably right. When I did my post grad we did group work to produce health promotion projects, so this would mirror the workplace as that is often an area where you would be in a group to get something done. Group work has its place but not in every subject at every opportunity!

 

[ramot]

2 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

Hi @KBear this is very true and I do know a number of our members who have and still do use the student visa as way to get in to Australia. 

I don’t think it’s an easy route. I think you might now need experience post degree before you can apply?  Does anyone actually have the figures of how many students gain PR in a year as against how many are studying here each year before we blame them. Surely if studying here is a a legal pathway to PR, then blame the government not the student.

As some posters might know my son came the student route, it’s very expensive paying international fees, but it was a government approved way to get PR.

In my sons case, the government retrospectively changed the conditions twice in 2 years. At that time there was a lot of rorting of the system. However many genuine students were caught up in the mess.

Our son had done everything correctly, he had front loaded, paid and lodged his application, when retrospectively a month later the government changed everything. Like others he was then in limbo for 3 years on a bridging visa. It took him a year to get a “proper” job, and a further 2 years to be one of the few students to get PR possibly because he had an MBA.

Thousands stayed on in the hope of PR and were then kicked out of the country, not many had their application fees returned either without a fight.  Sorry can’t remember the visa number.

I really think that at the moment immigration is a political hot topic, with blame being laid on various groups. I would like to see the actual figures of how many International students manage to get PR before blaming them.

From memory the revenue that Australia gets from International students is one of the highest, on a par or exceeds tourism.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the parent visa next to be much harder to get or made much more expensive, and also partner visas. 

[Paul1Perth]

Going to Uni here seems a lot different to the UK. A lot of my sons friends went to do degrees at WA unis and they all lived at home.

Makes sense I suppose as it costs more to move out and none of the unis are far away. 

Major things about going to Uni for me was getting away from home, living in the halls of res for the first year, with like minded people and having a good time. Getting a degree was never really the driving ambition, just a by product, as long as you turned up for more lectures than you missed and did enough work the average intelligent person would be fine.

Also think that the whole experience has also changed with lectures being on-line, no real need to go to campus, not so much a party atmosphere as used to be.

Another reason is education provision being seen as just another business enterprise where the driving force is how much money can be made. Pity really as UWA has one of the nicest campuses I've seen, spent millions on student facilities, swimming pools , gyms, squash courts, tennis courts, bars, refectories. You go on campus and it's a bit dead. Certainly don't seem to party like we used to. Missing out I reckon.

[starlight7]

I think the degrees from the 'respected' places are ok but there seems to be an awful lot of mickey mouse degrees around.  Buyer beware is all I can say.

[Paul1Perth]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 15:12, Amber Snowball said:

Having a son in the Australian University system I wouldn’t be rushing to recommend it. Experience of 2 unis in Victoria and they have both been pretty poor.

No idea on current UK University experience but I did my degree 20 odd years ago and it was better run than the tripe we have experienced in Victoria.

Shame because the schooling at primary and secondary level I was really impressed with.

Just a personal view.

I think unis in general have lowered standards and expectations. My youngest did some work experience at UWA and he said the ladies that worked in the office bent over backwards to get foreign students a pass mark. He saw some course work come in where he said the English was so bad that it was hardly understandable and had a failed mark on it.

It had got back to the office with an attached letter from the student saying how much trouble they would be in with their parents and how desperate they were for a pass mark. His bosses job was some type of adjudicator and they magically found some extra marks to get a pass.

When I did my final year project me and a friend wanted to do a robotics thing together. We were "pursuaded" to split up and each one of us to work with Iranian students as the staff knew they struggled.

The one I was put with hardly ever came. We used to have the whole of Wednesday to do the project but if you both slacked off you both failed. I ended up writing the software, did all the hardware and design and he just borrowed my notes and got someone to type them up.

Just had to suck it up as the lecturers didn't want to know. Didn't want to fail at that late stage so just got on with it. My mate had the same experience with his partner too. All the English guys who knew what they were doing got split up to help people out who should have failed. Oh well, have to play the game.

[Amber Snowball]

23 minutes ago, Paul1Perth said:

I think unis in general have lowered standards and expectations. My youngest did some work experience at UWA and he said the ladies that worked in the office bent over backwards to get foreign students a pass mark. He saw some course work come in where he said the English was so bad that it was hardly understandable and had a failed mark on it.

It had got back to the office with an attached letter from the student saying how much trouble they would be in with their parents and how desperate they were for a pass mark. His bosses job was some type of adjudicator and they magically found some extra marks to get a pass.

When I did my final year project me and a friend wanted to do a robotics thing together. We were "pursuaded" to split up and each one of us to work with Iranian students as the staff knew they struggled.

The one I was put with hardly ever came. We used to have the whole of Wednesday to do the project but if you both slacked off you both failed. I ended up writing the software, did all the hardware and design and he just borrowed my notes and got someone to type them up.

Just had to suck it up as the lecturers didn't want to know. Didn't want to fail at that late stage so just got on with it. My mate had the same experience with his partner too. All the English guys who knew what they were doing got split up to help people out who should have failed. Oh well, have to play the game.

Having been in the workforce a while maybe “learning to play the game “ is an underrated lifeskill! 

This all sounds familiar tbh. My son in his current course has been lucky enough to be placed in groups with other “workers” so hasn’t minded it so much, but the nature of this course attracts and retains only those sort of people I think. They covered for one lad and did his part of the project for him as his mum was very unwell and they didn’t want him to fail and have to repeat the unit.

[Paul1Perth]

22 minutes ago, Amber Snowball said:

Having been in the workforce a while maybe “learning to play the game “ is an underrated lifeskill! 

This all sounds familiar tbh. My son in his current course has been lucky enough to be placed in groups with other “workers” so hasn’t minded it so much, but the nature of this course attracts and retains only those sort of people I think. They covered for one lad and did his part of the project for him as his mum was very unwell and they didn’t want him to fail and have to repeat the unit.

I went to Uni as a mature student when I was 29 so had been in work from 16. Didn't get too phased or anxious like some of the younger guys who had come straight from school. Least little upset used to worry them no-end. 

Used to do lots of sport and helped run the uni squash club. Takes your mind of worries does a good game of squash. Specially followed by a few beers.☺