How do people actually get into work in Australia?

[NickyNook]

I think you might be expecting too much of the person who's reading your application. They're not going to wade through your CV looking for things to match up against the Selection Criteria - regardless of how easy it might be to find. If they want the selection criteria addressed and you haven't provided it in an easy-to-read format, your CV will go straight in the bin. In most cases, they're looking for reasons to bin it anyway as they'll have hundreds of applications. Don't make it easy for them.

Addressing selection criteria is ghastly - as you say, tedious and time-consuming - but if you want to be seriously considered for a job that requires it, then you have to do it.  

[Brucolino]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

If your standard cover letter "already contains the selection criteria" then you're not being specific enough.  You need to address their selection criteria in their exact words, e.g.

I think you have some good suggestions.

While reading this with my partner he turned and said to me "Basicaly, the same as what I've been saying all along"

I do take your point Nicky. Perhaps I need a completely different approach. Still frustrating though!

[newjez]

On 30/04/2018 at 11:05, CeltInCaulfield said:

Amusingly, I deliberately ignore any CVs that look that way nowadays almost without fail.  Drilling for substance where there is none in interviews really becomes a tedious exercise.

Personally, if someone sticks something on their CV, I expect them to know it. Doesn't take long to work out they don't.

Although it's a long time since we recruited anyone. We tend to just ship them from India.

Edited May 3, 2018 by newjez

[newjez]

6 hours ago, NickyNook said:

I think you might be expecting too much of the person who's reading your application. They're not going to wade through your CV looking for things to match up against the Selection Criteria - regardless of how easy it might be to find. If they want the selection criteria addressed and you haven't provided it in an easy-to-read format, your CV will go straight in the bin. In most cases, they're looking for reasons to bin it anyway as they'll have hundreds of applications. Don't make it easy for them.

Addressing selection criteria is ghastly - as you say, tedious and time-consuming - but if you want to be seriously considered for a job that requires it, then you have to do it.  

Usually takes me two or three days to apply for a permanent job. I much preferred contracting. Much easier interview, as they just show you the door if you are no good.

[Parley]

I think there is an over supply of IT people looking for work that is the main issue.

Usually a lot of people respond to any advertisements placed. I found this myself in Melbourne.

[ali]

9 hours ago, Marisawright said:

If your standard cover letter "already contains the selection criteria" then you're not being specific enough.  You need to address their selection criteria in their exact words, e.g.

"I feel my skills and experience are ideally suited to your requirements as follows:

• (selection criteria #1) - I hold (qualification) which is equivalent to ....
• (selection criteria #2) - at (job), I did such and such
• (selection criteria #3) - at (job), I did such and such

etc.

I'm sure you know not to address the criteria by saying things like, "I have extensive experience of ...(selection criteria #3).  Anyone can say that, why should I believe you?  Instead, give a specific example of a time you demonstrated that skill in one of your previous roles. 

By the time you've done that for each of the criteria, your cover letter will be long enough.  Don't overdo it by mentioning other achievements or attributes they don't ask for. 

If you're sending out a bog standard letter that doesn't address my criteria, as a  manager, I'd be inclined to put your application aside because it shows you don't really care.

The good news is that if you do write a good cover letter, your CV can be a standard list of your previous roles, you don't have to tailor it because the cover letter will get you the interview.

That's how we view shortlisting too - the key word in our selection criteria is 'demonstrate' - so someone writing I have good communication skills (e.g.) isn't enough.

[Marisawright]

8 hours ago, Brucolino said:

While reading this with my partner he turned and said to me "Basicaly, the same as what I've been saying all along"

I do take your point Nicky. Perhaps I need a completely different approach. Still frustrating though!

I must say, while I was following this thread, I did start to wonder if you were taking the wrong approach to your applications.  

All the information might be in your CV, but as an overloaded manager who's already too busy and has to wade through applications as well, I don't have time to look through it.

Honestly, if you're sending out a standard CV with a letter that basically says, "you'll see from my CV how much experience I have", you might as well post them straight in the bin yourself.

You need to take the same approach with every application, whether the  job ad  lists selection criteria or not.  The ad  usually says something about the skills and qualifications required, even if it's in a paragraph.  You need to extract the key requirements, list them as bullet points and demonstrate why you fit.

Remember to be specific, e.g. for "Demonstrated project experience in complex environments", you'd say something like, "I have led several projects in complex environments, the largest being .....  where I successfully....." 

If it means you send out fewer applications a day, so be it.  You'll have a much, much better chance at the ones you do apply for.  It sounds as though there's a lot of competition for IT jobs in Melbourne and that makes it even more important that your cover letter stands out.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Marisawright

[Marisawright]

11 hours ago, Brucolino said:

I have found that when I call recruiters to follow up on my application most of them tell me I don't have local or sector specific experience. For example, some of my applications have been for jobs within a Finance or Healthcare sector and I was told they specifically require previous experience within that sector.

... As far as I’m concerned IT skills are completely transferable and it makes no difference if that's within a finance or healthcare setting, it’s still IT, it’s still a system, it’s still data and information. I even had one person tell me I didn't have consultancy specific experience, even though I have advised and mentored business teams in my previous role. But he specifically wanted me to have worked as a 'consultant'. The irony is a lot of my ex-colleagues went into consultancy. It makes no sense to me.

Today I spoke to another recruiter who was hiring for a role working as a consultant for my previous company. I imagined I would have been the perfect fit as I was familiar with all the flows, systems, processes of the company.. but when I called she told me I had never worked under a consultant title. Even when I argued that I used to work for that company she said there were more suitable candidates. I have no idea at this point if they’re just making up excuses for the sake of it.

On the plus side, I received an email today from a large company saying they’ve reviewed my CV and that ‘my application will be reviewed further’. As ambigious as that may sound it's at least somewhat positive!

It sounds like a silly prejudice but I suspect that's not the real issue here.  More often, they're just using it as a lazy way of cutting down the shortlist: if there are plenty of applicants with experience in that sector, then there's the shortlist and they've just saved themselves half a day. 

It's another illustration of what I'm saying.  They're going through cover letters and picking out the ones with relevant experience before they even look at the CV's. If your cover letter is too generic then it's already been rejected and they're probably not going to bother to review the list just because you rang up.

So if you're going for a role in Finance, be sure to mention that role in a bank in the cover letter.  If you're going for a consultant role, even if you didn't have the title, then mention that relevant role in your cover letter - and use the words, "I acted as consultant ..."  Not everyone will be as one-eyed as that recruiter.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Marisawright

[ali]

10 hours ago, Brucolino said:

While reading this with my partner he turned and said to me "Basicaly, the same as what I've been saying all along"

I do take your point Nicky. Perhaps I need a completely different approach. Still frustrating though!

God, don't you hate it when they're right LOL

[Brucolino]

1 hour ago, Marisawright said:

I must say, while I was following this thread, I did start to wonder if you were taking the wrong approach to your applications.  

All the information might be in your CV, but as an overloaded manager who's already too busy and has to wade through applications as well, I don't have time to look through it.

Honestly, if you're sending out a standard CV with a letter that basically says, "you'll see from my CV how much experience I have", you might as well post them straight in the bin yourself.

You need to take the same approach with every application, whether the  job ad  lists selection criteria or not.  The ad  usually says something about the skills and qualifications required, even if it's in a paragraph.  You need to extract the key requirements, list them as bullet points and demonstrate why you fit.

Remember to be specific, e.g. for "Demonstrated project experience in complex environments", you'd say something like, "I have led several projects in complex environments, the largest being .....  where I successfully....." 

If it means you send out fewer applications a day, so be it.  You'll have a much, much better chance at the ones you do apply for.  It sounds as though there's a lot of competition for IT jobs in Melbourne and that makes it even more important that your cover letter stands out.

Thank you for all the useful advice Marisa. I will definetely give your method a go!

It does get quite confusing because I'm receiving such varied advice. My sisters' partner advised me to approach people over the phone, to keep chasing them up and grab their attention. It works very well for him. There are also many jobs advertised over linkedin under the 'easy apply' function. These jobs don't provide a field to upload a cover letter, they just want you to attach your CV and if they like the sound of you they get in touch via Linkedin. I have had a few people contacting me this way. Certainly when I attended recruiting events back home they just asked for a copy of my CV on the day and I got offered an interview(and subsequently the job) on that basis.

I think a lot of this is down to individual preference. It's interesting you say they look at a cover letter first, I would have thought the CV was the key document. My unerstanding has always been that a cover letter is to address specific elements of the application that may not be clear or fully covered in your CV. Because of the nature of my work experience however, the roles I have been applying to have been pretty identical to what I have done in my previous role. So the CV should address the criteria pretty accurately.

Very interesting to think about all of this. Will be trying out your way to see if there's a difference. I do hope so. Thank you so much for all the useful information!

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Brucolino

[ali]

10 minutes ago, Brucolino said:

Thank you for all the useful advice Marisa. I will definetely give your method a go!

It does get quite confusing because I'm receiving such varied advice. My sisters' partner advised me to approach people over the phone, to keep chasing them up and grab their attention. It works very well for him. There are also many jobs advertised over linkedin under the 'easy apply' function. These jobs don't provide a field to upload a cover letter, they just want you to attach your CV and if they like the sound of you they get in touch via Linkedin. I have had a few people contacting me this way. Certainly when I attended recruiting events back home they just asked for a copy of my CV on the day and I got offered an interview(and subsequently the job) on that basis.

I think a lot of this is down to individual preference. It's interesting you say they look at a cover letter first, I would have thought the CV was the key document. My unerstanding has always been that a cover letter is to address specific elements of the application that may not be clear or fully covered in your CV. Because of the nature of my work experience however, the roles I have been applying to have been pretty identical to what I have done in my previous role. So the CV should address the criteria pretty accurately.

Very interesting to think about all of this. Will be trying out your way to see if there's a difference. I do hope so. Thank you so much for all the useful information!

 

Good Luck ... we'll celebrate with you vicariously when you get a position

[Marisawright]

26 minutes ago, Brucolino said:

It does get quite confusing because I'm receiving such varied advice. My sisters' partner advised me to approach people over the phone, to keep chasing them up and grab their attention. It works very well for him. There are also many jobs advertised over linkedin under the 'easy apply' function. These jobs don't provide a field to upload a cover letter, they just want you to attach your CV and if they like the sound of you they get in touch via Linkedin. I have had a few people contacting me this way. Certainly when I attended recruiting events back home they just asked for a copy of my CV on the day and I got offered an interview(and subsequently the job) on that basis.

I think a lot of this is down to individual preference. It's interesting you say they look at a cover letter first, I would have thought the CV was the key document. My unerstanding has always been that a cover letter is to address specific elements of the application that may not be clear or covered in your CV.

 

You're not in the UK now, you're in Australia.   Whatever recruiters did in the UK is irrelevant, things are done differently here.   It's easy to forget Australia is a foreign country because we speak English - but it is a foreign country and a lot of aspects of the culture are different.

It's not down to personal preference, it's down to practicality and market conditions.  When there's a shortage of applications, then yes, I will take the time to look at every CV.   If I get a huge pile of applications, that's impossible, so I whittle it down using the cover letters.  

You're right that the cover letter is to "address specific elements of the application".  That's what I said, isn't it?   That's why I, and every other recruiter, will look at it first.  If you don't meet those specific elements, you're not suitable, so why would I waste my time looking at your CV?   And if you haven't bothered to address those specific elements, that makes me worry about your communication skills or your interest in the job, so why should I do the work for you?

Linkedin is an international company so their system isn't geared for what Australian recruiters really want.  But you can upload your cover letter to LinkedIn Easy Apply as part of your document.  Some good advice in this article:

http://www.prepary.com/linkedin-easy-apply/

https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/41045/uploading-a-cover-letter-with-your-job-application?lang=en

As for phoning people and chasing them up - yes it can work, but you've got to get the application right in the first place.  If they've already completely dismissed you, it won't help.

The proof of the pudding is that the way you're applying now is not working.  So you need to change what you're doing.  

Edited May 4, 2018 by Marisawright

[samlab]

I agree with Marisawright especially about Australia being totally different to the UK. 

In your original post you said about the 2 interviews you’ve had and they never got back to you.

Every interview I’ve been to in the UK they always notified me of the outcome.

Here they don’t even bother to let you know! I consider it to be really rude!

I must remember this is a different country to the UK. This isn’t a one off, it’s happened twice to me and once for my son. 

I dropped everything for a same day interview on Wednesday with an agency. When I left I was told she’d contact my references, then the company looking for a temp that afternoon and let me know. I followed it up with an email yesterday but nothing! still waiting! ?

Edited May 4, 2018 by samlab

[Brucolino]

7 hours ago, samlab said:

I agree with Marisawright especially about Australia being totally different to the UK. 

In your original post you said about the 2 interviews you’ve had and they never got back to you.

Every interview I’ve been to in the UK they always notified me of the outcome.

Here they don’t even bother to let you know! I consider it to be really rude!

I must remember this is a different country to the UK. This isn’t a one off, it’s happened twice to me and once for my son. 

I dropped everything for a same day interview on Wednesday with an agency. When I left I was told she’d contact my references, then the company looking for a temp that afternoon and let me know. I followed it up with an email yesterday but nothing! still waiting! ?

I fully understand. Sounds very similar to what I've experienced unfortunately. The worst part is when they act so enthusiastically and lie to your face assuring you that will let you know by the end of the day, or week. I’ve re-programmed my brain to switch off when I hear ‘I’ll let you know by the end of the day’ now. I spoke to around 5 recruiters who were meant to contact me by the end of Monday and when I tried calling them they told me they were in meetings or one of them even hang up the phone on me.

I have to admit, it is absolutely shocking behaviour. Not sure rude behaviour is something one can just get used to!

Good luck with your job search Sam! Hope you find something soon

Edited May 4, 2018 by Brucolino

[Brucolino]

@ Marisawright

A lot of great tips and advice - thank you!

Edited May 4, 2018 by Brucolino

[Marisawright]

@Brucolino, I stumbled across this from @Kenfrapin on an old post, explaining how he approached his job search.  He's also in IT:

Quote

 ...jobs tend to pick up just after the holiday season and we learnt quickly that Feb is when things pick up in Aus. Then, for my line of work, hiring picks up again just before the financial year end and then a month into the new financial year when budgets are in hand to hire resources

 I used LinkedIn the best I could. I posted an update about my move in mid Jan to my network and requested they share my updates with any recruitment agents they knew, and this worked very well. I took the 1 month free premium membership as well. I also started following several IT recruitment agents so my feed showed what roles they were looking for. I used Seek and Indeed as my main search tools but I signed up, in total, to 27 companies which was a mix of recruitment agents and actual company career portals so my CV was shared as much as possible in the local market. I kept connecting with as many recruitment agents as I could, and LinkedIn then suggests even more similar profiles to reach out to, which I did.

This is specifically what helped out my CV in a lot of agents hands. From my experience so far, recruitment agents always want to meet you first, in person, so they can gauge you, decide if you are a good candidate to then shortlist you and send your CV for potential roles. I've never had this experience in the UK as agents speak to you and then its over to the client interview. Over here, agents first assess you on the initial call, then setup an hour meeting for which you dress up in complete business formals. After that is the actual interview over the phone or in person, where again, business formals is a must.

I do want to point out that we have been lucky with the timing of our move and experience, if we arrived in Sept 2016, we would have to spend 3 months job hunting.

 

[gameover98]

On 5/4/2018 at 17:32, Brucolino said:

I fully understand. Sounds very similar to what I've experienced unfortunately. The worst part is when they act so enthusiastically and lie to your face assuring you that will let you know by the end of the day, or week. I’ve re-programmed my brain to switch off when I hear ‘I’ll let you know by the end of the day’ now. I spoke to around 5 recruiters who were meant to contact me by the end of Monday and when I tried calling them they told me they were in meetings or one of them even hang up the phone on me.

I have to admit, it is absolutely shocking behaviour. Not sure rude behaviour is something one can just get used to!

Good luck with your job search Sam! Hope you find something soon

Very similar responses I had as well, aside from one shining example. I did my job search both in Australia and New Zealand, the best response I had was from Georgia Hynes of Talent International in Wellington. She pinged my LinkedIn profile within minutes of my email and replied back within half an hour and called me a few days later. I flew out to meet the team a few weeks later, had a few rounds of interviews with a few companies but did not get much, I'm in IT doing mostly architecture/design type of work while they were looking for hands on technical people. That was about a month ago, still jobless (and waiting for my RRV) for the time being 

[Paul1Perth]

On Friday, May 04, 2018 at 10:34, samlab said:

I agree with Marisawright especially about Australia being totally different to the UK. 

In your original post you said about the 2 interviews you’ve had and they never got back to you.

Every interview I’ve been to in the UK they always notified me of the outcome.

Here they don’t even bother to let you know! I consider it to be really rude!

I must remember this is a different country to the UK. This isn’t a one off, it’s happened twice to me and once for my son. 

I dropped everything for a same day interview on Wednesday with an agency. When I left I was told she’d contact my references, then the company looking for a temp that afternoon and let me know. I followed it up with an email yesterday but nothing! still waiting!

I've been out of work here and the UK and some companies have let me know the outcome, some haven't. Not found much difference between here and the UK. I've also been on the recruiting side here and UK and found the principals on letting people know to be much the same.

If there are lots of applicants the ones that get weeded out early aren't going to hear anything. If you were close to getting an interview maybe you'd get a response to say so. If you made interview and didn't get the job you'd be notified.

Everyone seems to be expected to do more in the same hours as the years go by. HR departments cut down to bare minimum. Secretaries that used to follow up on nice things like letting people know virtually non existant. We are expected to do our own documentation and follow ups. Generally to busy with work tasks to allow the niceties of business from 20 years ago. Big business is all concerned about return for shareholders these days. No matter how many posters they put up saying their employees are their greatest asset.

[Brucolino]

My update so far: I have been including detailed cover letters with my job applications addressing every single selection criterion asked for the position. I am backing up each claim with examples of my previous roles to demonstrate I have all the relevant skills/experience. I have also tried to add a bit more of a personal touch by including a small paragraph about my relocation to Australia and how eager I am to get started with my new life here. I am still receiving job rejections – so far I have received another 4..

I spoke to an Australian recruiter specialist last Friday and he told me ‘ I have never read a cover letter in my life, I don’t have time for that ‘. I have no idea at this point who’s advice to follow..

He reviewed my CV and like many other people said he didn’t understand why I haven’t managed to find work yet. The one thing he did point out is that in Australia it’s very much about who you know and getting recommended for a role through contacts. He said he was going to forward my CV onto a couple of positions he had in mind so I will be following up with him in the next day or so. At this point I am really trying not to get my hopes up so that I don't get too disappointed.

I also met up with a friend of my sister’s partner, who works in IT in Melbourne. He said it took him 4 years to get into the field he is specialised in (IT security) and that as a result he had to work in different fields before landing the job he is in now. He told me he never even attended an interview for the job he is in now, he simply got recommended by a friend and on that basis got hired immediately.

I don’t know what to make of any of this. I am still sending applications, attaching very targeted cover letters, and trying to remain hopeful. I am being extremely proactive and have been sending job posters messages via Linkedin to try and appear more keen.

It really doesn’t sound like there was ever any flaw in my approach but that the whole process here is completely different. I am starting to wonder if my applications even get viewed or if these positions have already been given to friends/contacts because I’ve spoken to a few people now who say that’s how people get jobs here.

I feel pretty numb about everything right now

Edited May 14, 2018 by Brucolino

[Marisawright]

4 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

Everyone seems to be expected to do more in the same hours as the years go by. HR departments cut down to bare minimum. Secretaries that used to follow up on nice things like letting people know virtually non existant. ...Big business is all concerned about return for shareholders these days. No matter how many posters they put up saying their employees are their greatest asset.

Exactly this. 

[Marisawright]

2 hours ago, Brucolino said:

My update so far: I have been including detailed cover letters with my job applications addressing every single selection criterion asked for the position.

I hate to say it because you're obviously trying hard, but it sounds as though you're turning your cover letter into a CV now.  Your cover letter should be one page, or two pages at a pinch - so there's only room to give ONE example from each job.  

Different recruiters do work differently, it's true.

I do hope you get something soon.  Did you read that post from Kenfrapin on how he got his job search going?  It does sound as though he made strong use of networking, which is what others are suggesting to you too - maybe give that a try, and perhaps message Kenfrapin to see if he has any other tips.  He seems like a nice bloke and he's also in Melbourne.

[horsemad1976]

On 30/04/2018 at 07:58, CeltInCaulfield said:

Brucolino, fire me a PM with your CV, if you fancy.  We may have a few openings coming up shortly for BAs/testers. We are based in the inner eastern suburbs on the main 64 tram line, so commuting not too harsh.

We shall bare you in mind @CeltInCaulfield should we be successful in obtaining PR! 

[Jon the Hat]

I wonder whether you should broaden your search to anything vaguely IT related to get your foot in the door?  Even a low paid role is better than eating into your savings for months.

[Leighbee98]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

I wonder whether you should broaden your search to anything vaguely IT related to get your foot in the door?  Even a low paid role is better than eating into your savings for months.

This is actually going to be my plan, even volunteering if needs be to make contacts and gain that local Aussie experience. Although I should still be able to  able to earn from my UK work remotely (a bit)

[Mcguinnessp1968]

My update so far: I have been including detailed cover letters with my job applications addressing every single selection criterion asked for the position. I am backing up each claim with examples of my previous roles to demonstrate I have all the relevant skills/experience. I have also tried to add a bit more of a personal touch by including a small paragraph about my relocation to Australia and how eager I am to get started with my new life here. I am still receiving job rejections – so far I have received another 4..

I spoke to an Australian recruiter specialist last Friday and he told me ‘ I have never read a cover letter in my life, I don’t have time for that ‘. I have no idea at this point who’s advice to follow..

He reviewed my CV and like many other people said he didn’t understand why I haven’t managed to find work yet. The one thing he did point out is that in Australia it’s very much about who you know and getting recommended for a role through contacts. He said he was going to forward my CV onto a couple of positions he had in mind so I will be following up with him in the next day or so. At this point I am really trying not to get my hopes up so that I don't get too disappointed.

I also met up with a friend of my sister’s partner, who works in IT in Melbourne. He said it took him 4 years to get into the field he is specialised in (IT security) and that as a result he had to work in different fields before landing the job he is in now. He told me he never even attended an interview for the job he is in now, he simply got recommended by a friend and on that basis got hired immediately.

I don’t know what to make of any of this. I am still sending applications, attaching very targeted cover letters, and trying to remain hopeful. I am being extremely proactive and have been sending job posters messages via Linkedin to try and appear more keen.

It really doesn’t sound like there was ever any flaw in my approach but that the whole process here is completely different. I am starting to wonder if my applications even get viewed or if these positions have already been given to friends/contacts because I’ve spoken to a few people now who say that’s how people get jobs here.

I feel pretty numb about everything right now

What do you specialise in