After brexit, is it time for an Irish union referendum?

[newjez]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16030465.Iain_Macwhirter__Brexit_has_created_havoc_in_Northern_Ireland/

It is a big complication.

The negotiations would go much more smoothly without it.

Many on both sides would prefer to remain in the EU.

Why not let them decide?

[BacktoDemocracy]

11 hours ago, newjez said:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16030465.Iain_Macwhirter__Brexit_has_created_havoc_in_Northern_Ireland/

It is a big complication.

The negotiations would go much more smoothly without it.

Many on both sides would prefer to remain in the EU.

Why not let them decide?

Because the DUP and its bunch of nationalist bigots would wage all out war at any suggestion of coming under Eire control.

[newjez]

1 hour ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Because the DUP and its bunch of nationalist bigots would wage all out war at any suggestion of coming under Eire control.

Real war or just harsh words?

[BacktoDemocracy]

11 minutes ago, newjez said:

Real war or just harsh words?

Guns and bullets, they've done it before. 

[newjez]

4 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Guns and bullets, they've done it before. 

I wonder if the USA will fund them like they did the IRA?

[aussiederek]

10 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Because the DUP and its bunch of nationalist bigots would wage all out war at any suggestion of coming under Eire control.

I find your comments about the DUP being bigots offensive. The DUP are a pro-British democratic political party who have never had any connection with a terrorist organisation. Neither are they nationalists. Sinn Fein on the other hand are anti-British nationalists and the political wing of the IRA. Enough said!!

[bristolman]

1 hour ago, aussiederek said:

I find your comments about the DUP being bigots offensive. The DUP are a pro-British democratic political party who have never had any connection with a terrorist organisation. Neither are they nationalists. Sinn Fein on the other hand are anti-British nationalists and the political wing of the IRA. Enough said!!

Im not sure Backtodemocracy is a big fan of proBritish or ironically democracy. 

[BacktoDemocracy]

7 hours ago, aussiederek said:

I find your comments about the DUP being bigots offensive. The DUP are a pro-British democratic political party who have never had any connection with a terrorist organisation. Neither are they nationalists. Sinn Fein on the other hand are anti-British nationalists and the political wing of the IRA. Enough said!!

Surely the Daily Mail Online can't be lying, can they?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4591268/The-terror-links-Ian-Paisley-s-DUP-party.html

Or

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/so-who-are-dup

Edited February 19, 2018 by BacktoDemocracy

[aussiederek]

27 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Surely the Daily Mail Online can't be lying, can they?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4591268/The-terror-links-Ian-Paisley-s-DUP-party.html

Or

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/so-who-are-dup

These two newspapers are sensationalizing and trying to make the DUP appear to be something it's not. In reality its roots are the Free Presbyterian Church of which Ian Paisley was founder and Moderator. Paisley was a firebrand preacher and well known for stunts. Nobody should be fooled by the red berets, that was all part of the show. Ulster Resistance was never a terrorist group, simply a group of "showmen" that existed briefly and did nothing more than demonstrate. Just look at the photo of Paisley with Peter Robinson walking up the road, the followers were a band for goodness sake not a paramilitary group. The photo of Peter Robinson with the gun was staged. The IRA acquired guns and ammunition from the Middle East and in fact shared common cause with the PLO. Robinson was there on a fact finding mission and had his photo taken with the weapon, as many would do. This was before the era of selfies! The insinuations and accusations made by these two newspapers are a pack of lies and quite disgraceful.

[BacktoDemocracy]

2 hours ago, aussiederek said:

These two newspapers are sensationalizing and trying to make the DUP appear to be something it's not. In reality its roots are the Free Presbyterian Church of which Ian Paisley was founder and Moderator. Paisley was a firebrand preacher and well known for stunts. Nobody should be fooled by the red berets, that was all part of the show. Ulster Resistance was never a terrorist group, simply a group of "showmen" that existed briefly and did nothing more than demonstrate. Just look at the photo of Paisley with Peter Robinson walking up the road, the followers were a band for goodness sake not a paramilitary group. The photo of Peter Robinson with the gun was staged. The IRA acquired guns and ammunition from the Middle East and in fact shared common cause with the PLO. Robinson was there on a fact finding mission and had his photo taken with the weapon, as many would do. This was before the era of selfies! The insinuations and accusations made by these two newspapers are a pack of lies and quite disgraceful.

Well that maybe one interpretation but there seems to be lots of people who believe otherwise, but they remain a party that is anti gay and anti abortion still,  when even southern Ireland is starting to reconsider its opposition.

[aussiederek]

14 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

Well that maybe one interpretation but there seems to be lots of people who believe otherwise, but they remain a party that is anti gay and anti abortion still,  when even southern Ireland is starting to reconsider its opposition.

I was born, lived and worked in Northern Ireland throughout the worst of the troubles. Being involved in maintaining an essential service enabled me to know a lot of stuff that was going on. What I have written is not just one interpretation, it is what I know to be true. There is an old saying, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time". BacktoDemocracy, you are obviously one of the former! 

[Gbye grey sky]

7 minutes ago, aussiederek said:

I was born, lived and worked in Northern Ireland throughout the worst of the troubles. Being involved in maintaining an essential service enabled me to know a lot of stuff that was going on. What I have written is not just one interpretation, it is what I know to be true. There is an old saying, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time". BacktoDemocracy, you are obviously one of the former! 

Actually I think it was more like...

You can fool some of the people all of the time.  You can fool all of the people some of the time.  But you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

Don’t know who said it but I think it may have been a former US President.

[aussiederek]

6 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

Actually I think it was more like...

You can fool some of the people all of the time.  You can fool all of the people some of the time.  But you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

Don’t know who said it but I think it may have been a former US President.

Thank you for the clarification Gbye grey sky. But my point still stands, BacktoDemocracy is clearly one of those who have been fooled if they believe this crap in the two newspapers referenced.

[newjez]

On 19/02/2018 at 07:17, aussiederek said:

I find your comments about the DUP being bigots offensive. The DUP are a pro-British democratic political party who have never had any connection with a terrorist organisation. Neither are they nationalists. Sinn Fein on the other hand are anti-British nationalists and the political wing of the IRA. Enough said!!

Whether or not the violence comes from the dup or not, the question is whether violence would come from unionists if Ireland reformed or whether they would accept democracy.

The failure to form a northern Ireland assembly worries me. Is the dup trying to scupper the gfa in favour of direct rule? They do after all control Westminster, so maybe they think they can rule NI from there?

[aussiederek]

1 hour ago, newjez said:

Whether or not the violence comes from the dup or not, the question is whether violence would come from unionists if Ireland reformed or whether they would accept democracy.

The failure to form a northern Ireland assembly worries me. Is the dup trying to scupper the gfa in favour of direct rule? They do after all control Westminster, so maybe they think they can rule NI from there?

Firstly, the DUP has never been involved in violence. They are a political party whose roots are in the Free Presbyterian Church. Their founder and leader Ian Paisley was a bit of a "stunt" man, red berets and all that as already mentioned in this thread. Loyalist paramilitaries on the other hand have been involved in violence, particularly in response to IRA violence, and we don't want to see any of that again from anybody. 

The collapse of the local assemble and failure to get it up and running again worries me too. Problem is that it was Sinn Fein who collapsed it in the first place, over an issue related to the mismanagement of a heating scheme. Seems like they were looking for any excuse to bring it down as it wasn't that important politically in my view! Attempts to restore the assemble have been frustrated by red line after red line by Sinn Fein. We can play the blame game till the cows come home but the truth of the matter is that at the end of the day all Sinn Fein want is a United Ireland. They were never interested in power sharing, it was always a means to an end. One should remember that the majority of Northern Ireland citizens are Ulster Scots, descended from those who came over during the plantation. They have a unique culture too and Sinn Fein are rejecting any suggestion of a shared respect for both Irish and Ulster Scots.

No, Ulster Unionists don't want to scupper the GFA, but in current circumstances where Sinn Fein want it all their own way, there is no alternative. Don't blame the DUP for that. Westmisister is the sovereign parliament and it is their responsibility to rule any part of the UK from there if required. The Government of the Republic of Ireland only has responsible as agreed to in the GFA and sometimes agreements collapse.

[BacktoDemocracy]

1 hour ago, aussiederek said:

Firstly, the DUP has never been involved in violence. They are a political party whose roots are in the Free Presbyterian Church. Their founder and leader Ian Paisley was a bit of a "stunt" man, red berets and all that as already mentioned in this thread. Loyalist paramilitaries on the other hand have been involved in violence, particularly in response to IRA violence, and we don't want to see any of that again from anybody. 

The collapse of the local assemble and failure to get it up and running again worries me too. Problem is that it was Sinn Fein who collapsed it in the first place, over an issue related to the mismanagement of a heating scheme. Seems like they were looking for any excuse to bring it down as it wasn't that important politically in my view! Attempts to restore the assemble have been frustrated by red line after red line by Sinn Fein. We can play the blame game till the cows come home but the truth of the matter is that at the end of the day all Sinn Fein want is a United Ireland. They were never interested in power sharing, it was always a means to an end. One should remember that the majority of Northern Ireland citizens are Ulster Scots, descended from those who came over during the plantation. They have a unique culture too and Sinn Fein are rejecting any suggestion of a shared respect for both Irish and Ulster Scots.

No, Ulster Unionists don't want to scupper the GFA, but in current circumstances where Sinn Fein want it all their own way, there is no alternative. Don't blame the DUP for that. Westmisister is the sovereign parliament and it is their responsibility to rule any part of the UK from there if required. The Government of the Republic of Ireland only has responsible as agreed to in the GFA and sometimes agreements collapse.

"Rvd Dr Ian Paisley MP MLA (2008)
Politician
Political activist Profession Minister 

He became a Protestant evangelical minister in 1946 and remained one for the rest of his life. In 1951 he co-founded the fundamentalist Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and was its leader until 2008. Paisley became known for his fiery sermons and regularly preached and protested against Roman Catholicism, ecumenism and homosexuality. He gained a large group of followers who were referred to as Paisleyites.

Paisley became involved in Ulster unionist/loyalist politics in the late 1950s. In the mid-late 1960s, he led and instigated loyalist opposition to the Catholic civil rights movement in Northern Ireland. This contributed to the outbreak of the Troubles in the late 1960s, a conflict that would engulf Northern Ireland for the next thirty years. In 1970 he becameMember of Parliament for North Antrim and the following year he founded the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), which he would lead for almost forty years. In 1979 he became aMember of the European Parliament.

Throughout the Troubles, Paisley was seen as a firebrand and the face of hardline unionism. He opposed all attempts to resolve the conflict through power-sharing between unionists and Irish nationalists/republicans, and all attempts to involve the Republic of Ireland in Northern affairs." 

 

The DUP grew out of a hardline fundamentalist  evangelical church which has always been anti catholic and anti pretty well anything that smells of liberal thinking so where this epitome of liberal thought fits into wanting a unified NI I find it difficult to imagine.

As we seem to be on opposite sides of an ideological divide I really don't see the point of continuing the conversation

[ssiri]

I find your comments about the DUP being bigots offensive. The DUP are a pro-British democratic political party who have never had any connection with a terrorist organisation. Neither are they nationalists. Sinn Fein on the other hand are anti-British nationalists and the political wing of the IRA. Enough said!!

The DUPs stance on gay marriage, abortion etc is toe curling enough. Wolves in sheeps clothing, nothing democratic about them. They are bigots.

[aussiederek]

46 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

"Rvd Dr Ian Paisley MP MLA (2008)
Politician
Political activist Profession Minister 

He became a Protestant evangelical minister in 1946 and remained one for the rest of his life. In 1951 he co-founded the fundamentalist Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster and was its leader until 2008. Paisley became known for his fiery sermons and regularly preached and protested against Roman Catholicism, ecumenism and homosexuality. He gained a large group of followers who were referred to as Paisleyites.

Paisley became involved in Ulster unionist/loyalist politics in the late 1950s. In the mid-late 1960s, he led and instigated loyalist opposition to the Catholic civil rights movement in Northern Ireland. This contributed to the outbreak of the Troubles in the late 1960s, a conflict that would engulf Northern Ireland for the next thirty years. In 1970 he becameMember of Parliament for North Antrim and the following year he founded the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), which he would lead for almost forty years. In 1979 he became aMember of the European Parliament.

Throughout the Troubles, Paisley was seen as a firebrand and the face of hardline unionism. He opposed all attempts to resolve the conflict through power-sharing between unionists and Irish nationalists/republicans, and all attempts to involve the Republic of Ireland in Northern affairs." 

 

The DUP grew out of a hardline fundamentalist  evangelical church which has always been anti catholic and anti pretty well anything that smells of liberal thinking so where this epitome of liberal thought fits into wanting a unified NI I find it difficult to imagine.

As we seem to be on opposite sides of an ideological divide I really don't see the point of continuing the conversation

No point at all buddy, at least we agree on that.  I'm outta here ....

[aussiederek]

39 minutes ago, ssiri said:

 

 

The DUPs stance on gay marriage, abortion etc is toe curling enough. Wolves in sheeps clothing, nothing democratic about them. They are bigots.

I'm not getting into this with you ssiri. I've seen too much of IRA violence and grieving families. This thread is supposed to be about Brexit as it relates to Ireland anyway.

I'm done ....

[newjez]

2 hours ago, aussiederek said:

Firstly, the DUP has never been involved in violence. They are a political party whose roots are in the Free Presbyterian Church. Their founder and leader Ian Paisley was a bit of a "stunt" man, red berets and all that as already mentioned in this thread. Loyalist paramilitaries on the other hand have been involved in violence, particularly in response to IRA violence, and we don't want to see any of that again from anybody. 

The collapse of the local assemble and failure to get it up and running again worries me too. Problem is that it was Sinn Fein who collapsed it in the first place, over an issue related to the mismanagement of a heating scheme. Seems like they were looking for any excuse to bring it down as it wasn't that important politically in my view! Attempts to restore the assemble have been frustrated by red line after red line by Sinn Fein. We can play the blame game till the cows come home but the truth of the matter is that at the end of the day all Sinn Fein want is a United Ireland. They were never interested in power sharing, it was always a means to an end. One should remember that the majority of Northern Ireland citizens are Ulster Scots, descended from those who came over during the plantation. They have a unique culture too and Sinn Fein are rejecting any suggestion of a shared respect for both Irish and Ulster Scots.

No, Ulster Unionists don't want to scupper the GFA, but in current circumstances where Sinn Fein want it all their own way, there is no alternative. Don't blame the DUP for that. Westmisister is the sovereign parliament and it is their responsibility to rule any part of the UK from there if required. The Government of the Republic of Ireland only has responsible as agreed to in the GFA and sometimes agreements collapse.

The majority are no longer Ulster Scots.

Plus you need to remember that a vote to unify Ireland is a vote to rejoin the EU.

Financially, they would be mad not to.

A win for loyalist is quite possible.

Brexit could cost the UK NI.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/demographics-are-shifting-towards-a-united-ireland-we-must-have-a-plan-35865222.html

[aussiederek]

7 minutes ago, newjez said:

The majority are no longer Ulster Scots.

Plus you need to remember that a vote to unify Ireland is a vote to rejoin the EU.

Financially, they would be mad not to.

A win for loyalist is quite possible.

Brexit could cost the UK NI.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/demographics-are-shifting-towards-a-united-ireland-we-must-have-a-plan-35865222.html

newjez, that article from the Belfast Telegraph by David McWilliams concentrates on South Down and reflects his personal bias. He quotes lots of figures but these need to be understood in context. For example many Catholics are happy to be British and are not all keen to join a united Ireland, which was never very united throughout history anyway. An imagined united Ireland is a relatively modern-day myth. Anyway, even Leo Varadkar himself has said that the last thing he wants is a referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the UK to become part of the Republic of Ireland that results in a 50% +1 majority.

On Brexit, I'm old enough to remember what it was like to live in a UK that was independent from Europe and the Commonwealth meant something real. I am proud to say I voted NO to joining the Common Market back at the time. My worry is that the present generation doesn't have the confidence to stand on its own two feet as a nation and make it work. The only thing that makes sense to me is for the Republic of Ireland to leave Europe as well and consider rejoining the United Kingdom. That would solve all our problems. It is 2018 and not 1916 and so much has changed. The UK is their biggest trading partner by far anyway. That is not an insignificant point to remember.

The majority not Ulster Scots ... that is debatable! Many Catholics claim Ulster Scots ancestry.

[newjez]

18 minutes ago, aussiederek said:

newjez, that article from the Belfast Telegraph by David McWilliams concentrates on South Down and reflects his personal bias. He quotes lots of figures but these need to be understood in context. For example many Catholics are happy to be British and are not all keen to join a united Ireland, which was never very united throughout history anyway. An imagined united Ireland is a relatively modern-day myth. Anyway, even Leo Varadkar himself has said that the last thing he wants is a referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the UK to become part of the Republic of Ireland that results in a 50% +1 majority.

On Brexit, I'm old enough to remember what it was like to live in a UK that was independent from Europe and the Commonwealth meant something real. I am proud to say I voted NO to joining the Common Market back at the time. My worry is that the present generation doesn't have the confidence to stand on its own two feet as a nation and make it work. The only thing that makes sense to me is for the Republic of Ireland to leave Europe as well and consider rejoining the United Kingdom. That would solve all our problems. It is 2018 and not 1916 and so much has changed. The UK is their biggest trading partner by far anyway. That is not an insignificant point to remember.

The majority not Ulster Scots ... that is debatable! Many Catholics claim Ulster Scots ancestry.

Ireland leaving the EU would solve a lot of problems. But I can't see that happening in the next year.

[aussiederek]

1 hour ago, newjez said:

Ireland leaving the EU would solve a lot of problems. But I can't see that happening in the next year.

I believe you are right newjez, I can't see the Republic of Ireland leaving the EU in the next year either. However, it is interesting to note that some in the Republic have called for consideration of the idea. Former Irish diplomat Ray Barrett said about a year ago that this is a debate the Republic of Ireland should have but hasn't.