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The (all new) Brexit Thread

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5 hours ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

You do realise that the changes mean that migration will carry on pretty much unchanged and the one thing that brexit  promised a reduction in migrants working for low wages will be gone, there will now be absolutely no benefits except a 'biue passport'

What a great outcome, no freedom for Britons to work and settle in 27 European countries but the citizens of those 27 countries have the right to work and settle in the UK,  marvellous.

You couldn't make it up, did any of you think that UK employers could make anything work without millions of cheap migrant workers, they couldn't be weaned off that teat after 70 years

Yes I do realise that it means we will still have many working and living here from the EU. To be honest,  I never thought it was likely to be anything other than. The ‘we will close our borders, get back to the good old days, open up all our shipping ports for the enormous trade will be doing and give millions to our nhs instead of the EU’ didn’t wash with me, one of the reasons I voted to remain. That said, the leave voters won and I’m ok with that.  We have to all pull together and hope I was wrong and it works. The positive difference though is they can’t just arrive, they have to get a visa and a job first. That can only be a good thing for our country as certain areas will be in a bad way if everyone was suddenly stopped. I mentioned staff in care homes as that’s a big area that will struggle without workers from overseas. Many home grown citizens are not prepared to change the dirty nappies of old people whilst being aggressively attacked by them throughout the day, especially not for minimum wage. You can get paid more to sit on the checkout at Tesco’s. The workers from many countries in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe just get on with the job and are grateful for the wage. Without them,  our most vulnerable citizens will be left uncared for as there simply won’t be enough staff. Surely no one would want that so properly managed migrants here is the best way. 

Edited by Tulip1
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40 minutes ago, Tulip1 said:

Yes I do realise that it means we will still have many working and living here from the EU. To be honest,  I never thought it was likely to be anything other than. The ‘we will close our borders, get back to the good old days, open up all our shipping ports for the enormous trade will be doing and give millions to our nhs instead of the EU’ didn’t wash with me, one of the reasons I voted to remain. That said, the leave voters won and I’m ok with that.  We have to all pull together and hope I was wrong and it works. The positive difference though is they can’t just arrive, they have to get a visa and a job first. That can only be a good thing for our country as certain areas will be in a bad way if everyone was suddenly stopped. I mentioned staff in care homes as that’s a big area that will struggle without workers from overseas. Many home grown citizens are not prepared to change the dirty nappies of old people whilst being aggressively attacked by them throughout the day, especially not for minimum wage. You can get paid more to sit on the checkout at Tesco’s. The workers from many countries in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe just get on with the job and are grateful for the wage. Without them,  our most vulnerable citizens will be left uncared for as there simply won’t be enough staff. Surely no one would want that so properly managed migrants here is the best way. 

A well rounded and considered point of view.  Thanks. 

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The point is that Britain can now determine her own migration laws. It has already been stated they want to move to an Australian style points based system.

As in Australia they will be able to change it as circumstance warrant but won't be slave to foreign bureaucrats deciding what their rules should be.

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Just now, Parley said:

The point is that Britain can now determine her own migration laws. It has already been stated they want to move to an Australian style points based system.

As in Australia they will be able to change it as circumstance warrant but won't be slave to foreign bureaucrats deciding what their rules should be.

Succinct and to the point. (And correct)

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1 hour ago, simmo said:

Succinct and to the point. (And correct)

Well......it isn’t is it.  It’s not correct.  Not at all.     We always had the ability to control our borders.  It was a choice we made not to do so. 

Where admission is permitted, an EU citizen may remain in the UK for up to three months from the date of entry, provided they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the UK.

If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”

The UK was free to implement this policy as it sees fit, and yet it did not, while other countries – including Belgium and Italy – use this legislation to repatriate thousands of EU migrants each year.

So we did indeed have control of our borders even inside the single market.  The fact is that EU migration is not unrestricted, and EU migrants are not permitted to burden the state by claiming their Treaty rights.

So why do you think this wasn’t implemented?   Could it be because each EU migrant, on average, contributes £2,300 more to the exchequer than the average British-born adult, supporting not just themselves but others who rely on the NHS and the UK welfare system.

 

Honestly this persistent attitude of “foreigners bad” on this forum, absent fact, indeed contrary to fact is really quite distasteful.  
 

reference: 

Free Movement Directive (to give it its formal title, EU Directive 2004/38/EC)

Edited by FirstWorldProblems
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6 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Well......it isn’t is it.  It’s not correct.  Not at all.     We always had the ability to control our borders.  It was a choice we made not to do so. 

Where admission is permitted, an EU citizen may remain in the UK for up to three months from the date of entry, provided they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the UK.

If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”

The UK was free to implement this policy as it sees fit, and yet it did not, while other countries – including Belgium and Italy – use this legislation to repatriate thousands of EU migrants each year.

So we did indeed have control of our borders even inside the single market.  The fact is that EU migration is not unrestricted, and EU migrants are not permitted to burden the state by claiming their Treaty rights.

So why do you think this wasn’t implemented?   Could it be because each EU migrant, on average, contributes £2,300 more to the exchequer than the average British-born adult, supporting not just themselves but others who rely on the NHS and the UK welfare system.

 

Honestly this persistent attitude of “foreigners bad” on this forum, absent fact, indeed contrary to fact is really quite distasteful.  

Factually correct but populism trumps anything factual and EU migrants are better job ready despite all the supposed rigour of our education system

Edited by BacktoDemocracy

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46 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Well......it isn’t is it.  It’s not correct.  Not at all.     We always had the ability to control our borders.  It was a choice we made not to do so. 

Where admission is permitted, an EU citizen may remain in the UK for up to three months from the date of entry, provided they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the UK.

If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”

The UK was free to implement this policy as it sees fit, and yet it did not, while other countries – including Belgium and Italy – use this legislation to repatriate thousands of EU migrants each year.

So we did indeed have control of our borders even inside the single market.  The fact is that EU migration is not unrestricted, and EU migrants are not permitted to burden the state by claiming their Treaty rights.

So why do you think this wasn’t implemented?   Could it be because each EU migrant, on average, contributes £2,300 more to the exchequer than the average British-born adult, supporting not just themselves but others who rely on the NHS and the UK welfare system.

 

Honestly this persistent attitude of “foreigners bad” on this forum, absent fact, indeed contrary to fact is really quite distasteful.  
 

reference: 

Free Movement Directive (to give it its formal title, EU Directive 2004/38/EC)

I don't think that the EU directive has anything to do with border control, rather it sets out how individuals may cross borders. The directive also nominates that such arrangements have a limit of five years.  Five years?   How do you police that if these people are not subject to a visa?  What precludes them from assuming a new identity to the extent that they simply fall off the radar and remain beyond five years? Then again what is the radar?

Australia has fairly stringent border control and visa conditions yet we have been deporting undesirables who have been in hiding, so to speak, for 20 years or more.  It takes a great deal of resources to find them and prosecute them. 

Do you ever see posts here on PIO that complain about Brits coming into Australia? Of course not. Its not a case of "foreigners bad"  but more the case of "Bad Foreigners".

  

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On 27/10/2020 at 09:24, BacktoDemocracy said:

You are of course right

Skilled workers

The points-based system will include a route for skilled workers who have a job offer from an approved employer sponsor.

From January 2021, the job you’re offered will need to be at a required skill level of RQF3 or above (equivalent to A level). You’ll also need to be able to speak English and be paid the relevant salary threshold by your sponsor. This will either be the general salary threshold of £25,600 or the going rate for your job, whichever is higher.

If you earn less than this - but no less than £20,480 - you may still be able to apply by ‘trading’ points on specific characteristics against your salary. For example, if you have a job offer in a shortage occupation or have a PhD relevant to the job.

End

Are the brexiteers going to admit that what they were told was right everytime we warned them that British business could not survive without cheap labour

Employers can take on someone with a PhD for just 20,480? No wonder school leavers are unemployed.

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10 hours ago, Dusty Plains said:

I don't think that the EU directive has anything to do with border control, rather it sets out how individuals may cross borders. The directive also nominates that such arrangements have a limit of five years.  Five years?   How do you police that if these people are not subject to a visa?  What precludes them from assuming a new identity to the extent that they simply fall off the radar and remain beyond five years? Then again what is the radar?

Australia has fairly stringent border control and visa conditions yet we have been deporting undesirables who have been in hiding, so to speak, for 20 years or more.  It takes a great deal of resources to find them and prosecute them. 

Do you ever see posts here on PIO that complain about Brits coming into Australia? Of course not. Its not a case of "foreigners bad"  but more the case of "Bad Foreigners".

  

In mainland Europe the answer is that not being able to obtain a National Identity Card for their new identity prevents them from doing that.

There are undoubtedly Australians who don't like Brits coming into Australia but why would they join PIO? Plenty of other places for them to grouch.

Edited by Ken
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12 hours ago, Dusty Plains said:

I don't think that the EU directive has anything to do with border control, rather it sets out how individuals may cross borders. The directive also nominates that such arrangements have a limit of five years.  Five years?   How do you police that if these people are not subject to a visa? 

No I don't think this is correct, though do please let me know if I am interpreting wrongly.

The provisions are absolutely there in the Free Movement Directive to repatriate EU nationals who aren't able to provide for themselves and contribute to the economy.  You don't need a visa to police that, just the desire to do so (per Belgium and Italy).

Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of EU citizens and their families to move and reside freely within the EU

EU citizens with a valid identity card or passport may:

  • Live in another EU country for up to 3 months without any conditions or formalities.
  • Live in another EU country for longer than 3 months subject to certain conditions, depending on their status in the host country. Those who are employed or self-employed do not need to meet any other conditions. Students and other people not working for payment, such as those in retirement, must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family, so as not to be a burden on the host country’s social assistance system, and comprehensive sickness insurance cover.
  • Have to register with the relevant authorities if living in the country longer than 3 months

 

So in Italy they've implemented it as:

Right of residence for more than three months
Union citizens have the right of residence in Italy for a period of longer than three months if they:

  • are workers or self-employed persons in Italy;
  • have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover, or any other equivalent means;

The union citizen has to register if staying above three months, evidencing their work and income and that it's sufficient to maintain themselves an family.  These conditions apply throughout their residence.  After 5 years they can apply for permanent residence.

Quote

What precludes them from assuming a new identity to the extent that they simply fall off the radar and remain beyond five years? Then again what is the radar?

Australia has fairly stringent border control and visa conditions yet we have been deporting undesirables who have been in hiding, so to speak, for 20 years or more.  It takes a great deal of resources to find them and prosecute them. 

This is the same problem as any type of border control.  Anyone can enter on a tourist visa (for example) and then overstay.  As an illegal they're restricted to working cash in hand, can't access welfare or healthcare or social housing etc.  I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

Quote

Do you ever see posts here on PIO that complain about Brits coming into Australia?

  No, I don't see posts on a forum populated by British people complaining about British people coming to Australia. 

 

Quote

Of course not. Its not a case of "foreigners bad"  but more the case of "Bad Foreigners".

i think it's simpler than that.  For many the problem is simply that foreigners exist.

 

In summary, it seems clear that we could have implemented EU migrant controls much easier, cheaper and faster than leaving the EU, and without having to lose the benefits of being a member. 

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On 27/10/2020 at 10:10, bunbury61 said:

Dear dear dear ...this means that people can apply for a position offering £20k , and there will be a lot of hoops to jump through , AND FINALLY CHECKS CAN BE MADE ON THEIR SUITABILITY 

If they have a criminal record - they will not be allowed to apply

All fine. Except we're about to lose access to the European Criminal Records Information System and the EU's Passenger Database. So, we'll never know.

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This border argument is pure nonsense. We always had control over our borders.

And whatever you think Brexit is going to do to reinforce that, it won't. And can't.

Edited by s713
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On 26/10/2020 at 17:16, FirstWorldProblems said:

Ministers have quietly ditched the £35,800 minimum salary for migrants to settle in the UK.  Under the rules for Boris Johnson's new points-based immigration system published on Thursday, the threshold will be lowered to £25,600

Tacit acknowledgment of the essential contribution that lower paid migrant workers make to the UK AND another Brexit promise broken.  
 

And still many Leave voters can’t bring themselves to admit they were duped.  

It will eventually come down to £0. When we realise we need people to do things.

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2 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

No I don't think this is correct, though do please let me know if I am interpreting wrongly.

The provisions are absolutely there in the Free Movement Directive to repatriate EU nationals who aren't able to provide for themselves and contribute to the economy.  You don't need a visa to police that, just the desire to do so (per Belgium and Italy).

Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of EU citizens and their families to move and reside freely within the EU

EU citizens with a valid identity card or passport may:

  • Live in another EU country for up to 3 months without any conditions or formalities.
  • Live in another EU country for longer than 3 months subject to certain conditions, depending on their status in the host country. Those who are employed or self-employed do not need to meet any other conditions. Students and other people not working for payment, such as those in retirement, must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family, so as not to be a burden on the host country’s social assistance system, and comprehensive sickness insurance cover.
  • Have to register with the relevant authorities if living in the country longer than 3 months

 

So in Italy they've implemented it as:

Right of residence for more than three months
Union citizens have the right of residence in Italy for a period of longer than three months if they:

  • are workers or self-employed persons in Italy;
  • have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover, or any other equivalent means;

The union citizen has to register if staying above three months, evidencing their work and income and that it's sufficient to maintain themselves an family.  These conditions apply throughout their residence.  After 5 years they can apply for permanent residence.

This is the same problem as any type of border control.  Anyone can enter on a tourist visa (for example) and then overstay.  As an illegal they're restricted to working cash in hand, can't access welfare or healthcare or social housing etc.  I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

  No, I don't see posts on a forum populated by British people complaining about British people coming to Australia. 

 

i think it's simpler than that.  For many the problem is simply that foreigners exist.

 

In summary, it seems clear that we could have implemented EU migrant controls much easier, cheaper and faster than leaving the EU, and without having to lose the benefits of being a member. 

I give up, there is nothing like believing whatever supports their own case.

Boris is running out of time, this is going to be the biggest FU since the Somme and Dunkirk

Asda have got chunky soup on at knockdown prices I'd recommend everybody get a few cases in

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2 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

No I don't think this is correct, though do please let me know if I am interpreting wrongly.

The provisions are absolutely there in the Free Movement Directive to repatriate EU nationals who aren't able to provide for themselves and contribute to the economy.  You don't need a visa to police that, just the desire to do so (per Belgium and Italy).

Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of EU citizens and their families to move and reside freely within the EU

EU citizens with a valid identity card or passport may:

  • Live in another EU country for up to 3 months without any conditions or formalities.
  • Live in another EU country for longer than 3 months subject to certain conditions, depending on their status in the host country. Those who are employed or self-employed do not need to meet any other conditions. Students and other people not working for payment, such as those in retirement, must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family, so as not to be a burden on the host country’s social assistance system, and comprehensive sickness insurance cover.
  • Have to register with the relevant authorities if living in the country longer than 3 months

 

So in Italy they've implemented it as:

Right of residence for more than three months
Union citizens have the right of residence in Italy for a period of longer than three months if they:

  • are workers or self-employed persons in Italy;
  • have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover, or any other equivalent means;

The union citizen has to register if staying above three months, evidencing their work and income and that it's sufficient to maintain themselves an family.  These conditions apply throughout their residence.  After 5 years they can apply for permanent residence.

This is the same problem as any type of border control.  Anyone can enter on a tourist visa (for example) and then overstay.  As an illegal they're restricted to working cash in hand, can't access welfare or healthcare or social housing etc.  I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

  No, I don't see posts on a forum populated by British people complaining about British people coming to Australia. 

 

i think it's simpler than that.  For many the problem is simply that foreigners exist.

 

In summary, it seems clear that we could have implemented EU migrant controls much easier, cheaper and faster than leaving the EU, and without having to lose the benefits of being a member. 

So there is the proof of Bori's self serving lies and we are all about to pay a very high price for his ambition

Edited by BacktoDemocracy
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7 hours ago, s713 said:

All fine. Except we're about to lose access to the European Criminal Records Information System and the EU's Passenger Database. So, we'll never know.

Australia seems to be able to request criminal record checks for any would be migrant that wants to come here.

I don't think it is rocket science.

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9 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

No, I don't see posts on a forum populated by British people complaining about British people coming to Australia.

At the same time however its fair to say that Brits in Australia as posters on PIO and others coming to Australia are generally happy with the border controls here, and particularly since the emergence of Covid-19.  As long as 40 year old EU immigrants coming into the UK and can claim to be teenagers and sit in school classrooms, then the system is no system at all.  Its all rhetoric and bluster hiding the fact that the UK has no border control.  

There is no point in substantiating your argument by holding aloft the EU Directive, as it is obviously part of the problem simply because it advocates on behalf of those 40 year olds pretending to be school children.

Its simply unbelievable.   

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53 minutes ago, Parley said:

Australia seems to be able to request criminal record checks for any would be migrant that wants to come here.

I don't think it is rocket science.

Yep and you get an answer 6 weeks later, that's useful ain't it

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On 27/10/2020 at 11:36, Tulip1 said:

The door is about to shut. I think the post was just about the ones that will be allowed in with visas to fill necessary positions. Nothing to do with previous Calais ferry crossings with their many EU citizens arriving, that will very soon be in the past.  Without doubt though people from the EU will be here working and living, the difference will be is it will be properly managed by border control which is a good thing.  

Exactly - with a visa 

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BUT I DONT FEEL AFRAID

AS LONG AS I GAZE AT

WATERLOO SUNSET

IAM IN PARADISE

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1 hour ago, Dusty Plains said:

At the same time however its fair to say that Brits in Australia as posters on PIO and others coming to Australia are generally happy with the border controls here, and particularly since the emergence of Covid-19.  As long as 40 year old EU immigrants coming into the UK and can claim to be teenagers and sit in school classrooms, then the system is no system at all.  Its all rhetoric and bluster hiding the fact that the UK has no border control.  

There is no point in substantiating your argument by holding aloft the EU Directive, as it is obviously part of the problem simply because it advocates on behalf of those 40 year olds pretending to be school children.

Its simply unbelievable.   

The so called 15 year olds getting in are not EU immigrants, they are from outside the EU arriving on U.K. shores by any means possible and trying to claim asylum. That is nothing to do with having no system or border control, they have slipped into the country just as many slip into other countries by the back door or overstaying visas. When they are found they are handed over to border force and progressed through the correct channels. What that almost always means is they get to stay but sometimes they’re removed.  When those found say they are minors it’s a problem proving they’re not as they give false information so there’s no way to confirm otherwise. Someone claiming to be a minor is handed straight over to social services which I expect is the same in many countries. How social workers can put on record that they deem them to be telling the truth is beyond me but that’s nothing to do with border controls and EU immigrants, that’s social services doing their assessments. 

Edited by Tulip1
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On 28/10/2020 at 12:53, s713 said:

This border argument is pure nonsense. We always had control over our borders.

And whatever you think Brexit is going to do to reinforce that, it won't. And can't.

Including this.......which we know was the primary factor for many leave voters

 

 

Nicely done Femi

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1 hour ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Including this.......which we know was the primary factor for many leave voters

 

 

Nicely done Femi

destroyed.

 

 

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1 hour ago, simmo said:

destroyed.

 

 

Ooops I think you included the wrong version of that video Simmo.

 

Here's the version where her claims are fact checked and proven wrong.

 

What is it with this mob? They all seem to think that as long as you put something forward forcefully and litter in a few numbers or statistics, that people won't have the basic common sense to go and check if they are being honest?  It's as if they think there are great swathes of the UK population that are either too stupid to check or who can be just whipped up by rhetoric.

We should all feel quite insulted.

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27 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Ooops I think you included the wrong version of that video Simmo.

 

Here's the version where her claims are fact checked and proven wrong.

 

What is it with this mob? They all seem to think that as long as you put something forward forcefully and litter in a few numbers or statistics, that people won't have the basic common sense to go and check if they are being honest?  It's as if they think there are great swathes of the UK population that are either too stupid to check or who can be just whipped up by rhetoric.

We should all feel quite insulted.

did you actually look at it?  He googled a 2004 (not 2006) version.!!  Not only that, the whole "free movement" bit is the point! They travel freely across europe TO CALAIS ... why do you think that is???  To see the sights of Calais ? (have you been there?

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Calais is delightful.  It’s like Blackpool but without less glitz angle glamour. 


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