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The (all new) Brexit Thread

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19 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

It's the crashing out without a deal that we should all be doing something about.  We should be holding the people to account who promised a better future and the easiest deal in history, a better deal than we had before.  No deal will just continue the economic downturn and we'll all see more people we know and love losing their jobs and struggling.

What are the benefits you see for our future?

Your side seem to regard the sovereignty issue  as jingoistic trivialities.  This article explains it perfectly and why it has nothing to to with any one law or regulation but the overall principle.

https://brexitcentral.com/how-the-british-conception-of-sovereignty-makes-eu-membership-untenable/

 

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1 hour ago, simmo said:

Your side seem to regard the sovereignty issue  as jingoistic trivialities.  This article explains it perfectly and why it has nothing to to with any one law or regulation but the overall principle.

https://brexitcentral.com/how-the-british-conception-of-sovereignty-makes-eu-membership-untenable/

 

That's a poor article. He outlines 4 keys pillars of sovereignty and 2 of them are we don't really like Europeans anyway and we used to have an Empire. Talk about a weak argument with no real 21C value.

The Commonwealth and the US are our real mates. Not really the spaces you want to be in at the moment are they? Commonwealth crumbling, US in a poor state domestically, elections on the way...

I was glad to see he waded into "border" territory in the first paragraph, we all know that's the real issue, always has been.

I get that these right-wing think-tanks all chest-beat and whip the crowd up but really they're a bit see-through and lacking in anything. Which is no surprise. He uses the word 'conception' 22 times in that article, my 13 year old niece could construct a better piece.

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2 hours ago, simmo said:

Your side seem to regard the sovereignty issue  as jingoistic trivialities.  This article explains it perfectly and why it has nothing to to with any one law or regulation but the overall principle.

https://brexitcentral.com/how-the-british-conception-of-sovereignty-makes-eu-membership-untenable/

 

No it doesn't.  In fact I'd go so far as to say this proves the jingoism point.

But lets agree to disagree and accept your premise that this article does make the point perfectly.  Is this gain really something that is worth the risk and the actual losses we've experienced thus far.  We are going to be excluded from the process of EU rule making, which will see us become a less attractive location for foreign investment.  As a nation of 65m we aren't going to be able to strike the trade deals that we can as part of the biggest trading bloc in the works.  We will have zero say on the design of more open EU markets for financial services, digital services etc.  

I'll say it again, throughout all our time as members,  the British government still determines the vast majority of policy over every issue, including pensions, defence, border security, education, health, welfare etc.    We've had our cake and eaten it.

 

And I'm going to ask you the question again that you dodged:

 

What are the benefits you see for our future?

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19 minutes ago, s713 said:

 

I was glad to see he waded into "border" territory in the first paragraph, we all know that's the real issue, always has been.

 

and talk about cutting off our nose to spite our faces.

We need immigration like never before.

Organically, we are declining as a population.  Long gone are the days of 2.4 children per family, we're now down at 1.7 and that is a huge problem.

We have an ageing population that successive govenment have failed to plan for economically.  The state pension scheme is unsustainable - it simply cannot afford the higher numbers of people who are living longer so retirement age has to be pushed up. And as we live longer, we tend to suffer from multiple, non-life threatening conditions that adds massive strain on the NHS. On average a person in their 70's costs the NHS 3 times more per year than someone in their 40's. By age 80 it's 4 times more.

So we now need far, far more tax money than we used to in order to pay for more people, who are living longer and costing more per year to maintain.

But we are 'creating' less tax payers (1.7 per family) so our organic pool of people to pay into the fund is shrinking.

There's no fixing that quickly, so we need to import tax payers from other countries to try and keep the whole house of cards from tumbling over.

The irony that the very people who are more likely to need the public purse to sustain their retirement are those who want to prevent immigrants coming in to pay for it is....well it's astounding.

 

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51 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

and talk about cutting off our nose to spite our faces.

We need immigration like never before.

Organically, we are declining as a population.  Long gone are the days of 2.4 children per family, we're now down at 1.7 and that is a huge problem.

We have an ageing population that successive government have failed to plan for economically.  The state pension scheme is unsustainable - it simply cannot afford the higher numbers of people who are living longer so retirement age has to be pushed up. And as we live longer, we tend to suffer from multiple, non-life threatening conditions that adds massive strain on the NHS. On average a person in their 70's costs the NHS 3 times more per year than someone in their 40's. By age 80 it's 4 times more.

So we now need far, far more tax money than we used to in order to pay for more people, who are living longer and costing more per year to maintain.

But we are 'creating' less tax payers (1.7 per family) so our organic pool of people to pay into the fund is shrinking.

There's no fixing that quickly, so we need to import tax payers from other countries to try and keep the whole house of cards from tumbling over.

The irony that the very people who are more likely to need the public purse to sustain their retirement are those who want to prevent immigrants coming in to pay for it is....well it's astounding.

 

Why on earth do you keep going on to Brexiteers about the economic issues of Brexit? They didn't vote for the economics and they don't care about the economics. Many countries fight wars (which are very bad for them economically plus the risk of getting killed) for independence. As far as the Brexiteers are concerned getting out of the EU with a just a few decades of recession is comparatively cheap. 

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Chartered Accountant (England & Wales); Registered Tax Agent & Fellow of The Tax Institute (Australia)

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43 minutes ago, Ken said:

Why on earth do you keep going on to Brexiteers about the economic issues of Brexit? They didn't vote for the economics and they don't care about the economics. Many countries fight wars (which are very bad for them economically plus the risk of getting killed) for independence. As far as the Brexiteers are concerned getting out of the EU with a just a few decades of recession is comparatively cheap. 

I suppose I am a hopeless optimist.  I'd like to think that if we can talk things through without resorting to insults and tribalism, that we can move closer to common ground.  If we can do that, we might be able to limit the worst of the impacts and try to make it successful.


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4 hours ago, simmo said:

Your side seem to regard the sovereignty issue  as jingoistic trivialities.  This article explains it perfectly and why it has nothing to to with any one law or regulation but the overall principle.

https://brexitcentral.com/how-the-british-conception-of-sovereignty-makes-eu-membership-untenable/

 

See what you can sell Sovereignty for when you are an unemployed car maker.

The Tories have form on this, in between the wars they insisted on sticking with the Gold Standard because that kept the value of their assets and investments  around the world at the maximum, meanwhile, the entire home  manufacturing industries collapsed as they were too expensive on the international market, we had massive unemployment and starvation in the country. When unemployed miners and ship yard workers walked to London to beg for better wages and for the NAB not to take their furniture away from them before they could get a few shillings in Assistance the Govt refused to meet them.

Sovereignty my a*se, it's the Tories lining their own pockets once more.

Who  welcomed the surge in immigration from 1951 to '66, which destroyed the unions and allowed managements to keep pay low, why it turns out it was the Tories continuing on the very same policies from before the war, starve the working classes back to work.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/origins-commonwealth-immigration.htm

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4 hours ago, simmo said:

Your side seem to regard the sovereignty issue  as jingoistic trivialities.  This article explains it perfectly and why it has nothing to to with any one law or regulation but the overall principle.

https://brexitcentral.com/how-the-british-conception-of-sovereignty-makes-eu-membership-untenable/

 

Which can all be summed up by, we are exceptional, we were a giant Colonial power ruling a giant Empire and therefore we WILL not modernise our institutions to reflect the modern day world of AI and Globalisation, it is the rest of the world which will have to change to what the UK deems to be the real world just so that we can carry on as before.

Arrogance of the highest order. 

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Screenshot_20200917-111036_Chrome.thumb.jpg.7ab96a77cd95e45451cd069ad1a8591a.jpg

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BUT I DONT FEEL AFRAID

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IAM IN PARADISE

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5 hours ago, Ken said:

Why on earth do you keep going on to Brexiteers about the economic issues of Brexit? They didn't vote for the economics and they don't care about the economics. Many countries fight wars (which are very bad for them economically plus the risk of getting killed) for independence. As far as the Brexiteers are concerned getting out of the EU with a just a few decades of recession is comparatively cheap. 

So (playing devils advocate) it's a commercial dicision?

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59 minutes ago, simmo said:

So (playing devils advocate) it's a commercial dicision?

 

57 minutes ago, simmo said:

I'm smelling remoaner pheromones 😂

 

Nothing commercial at all, if there was they would be trying to strike a commercial deal instead of playing to the gallery with populism and xenophobia.

You know what I get a strong whiff of, it's the stink of corruption and incompetence and it is becoming so strong that it is overpowering. So far we have Cummings and Boris's  mates and their companies awarded mega contracts worth millions for PPE, IT, border controls, corona testing and test and trace, and for non existent ferries all without tendering.

Dido who can smell a deal when she sees on gets a job looking after test and trace because she is promised mega bucks to take the rap for when it fails, Grayling, who couldnt get the chairmanship when all the votes were already bought for him and he now has a hundred thousand pound job for working 350 hours each year, that is a staggering £285 per hour, when did you last get paid that for an hours work

But, yer pays yer money  and you take yer chances.

Dr Johnson summed it up rather nicely," patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel "

when are the brexit mob going to realise they have been had.

Edited by BacktoDemocracy

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1 hour ago, simmo said:

I'm smelling remoaner pheromones 😂

And I'm smelling diversion.  Boris would be proud of you

Q. What are the benefits you see for our future?

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35 minutes ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

And I'm smelling diversion.  Boris would be proud of you

Q. What are the benefits you see for our future?

A future outside of the EU.

What scares you?

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10 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

and talk about cutting off our nose to spite our faces.

We need immigration like never before.

Organically, we are declining as a population.  Long gone are the days of 2.4 children per family, we're now down at 1.7 and that is a huge problem.

We have an ageing population that successive govenment have failed to plan for economically.  The state pension scheme is unsustainable - it simply cannot afford the higher numbers of people who are living longer so retirement age has to be pushed up. And as we live longer, we tend to suffer from multiple, non-life threatening conditions that adds massive strain on the NHS. On average a person in their 70's costs the NHS 3 times more per year than someone in their 40's. By age 80 it's 4 times more.

So we now need far, far more tax money than we used to in order to pay for more people, who are living longer and costing more per year to maintain.

But we are 'creating' less tax payers (1.7 per family) so our organic pool of people to pay into the fund is shrinking.

There's no fixing that quickly, so we need to import tax payers from other countries to try and keep the whole house of cards from tumbling over.

The irony that the very people who are more likely to need the public purse to sustain their retirement are those who want to prevent immigrants coming in to pay for it is....well it's astounding.

 

Why is 1.7 children a problem ? .

So your argument is that we need more people ,so we can pay more taxes , to support our greatest fiscal burden - which is what ????

Social security takes up a nice percentage 

 Our cities are already overcrowded 

And what is the birth rate amongst the new arrivals?

Probably a touch more than 2.4 .

So pray tell us , what do you do, ,when the population reaches 70 or 80 million , and there isn't the houses , schools ,hospital places or jobs , to sustain the number ?- enlighten us .

Please don't say higher taxes - because the higher tax payers will just leave the country , if there is a hint that taxes will be increased - remember the early 70s ? - I do 

During the current covid crisis , the London mayor is now saying 1000s are about to be evicted from rented properties ,because they cannot afford the rents , due to job losses .

What is your answer - add another few million to the population - crazy 

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IAM IN PARADISE

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p.s where did you get the idea that all new arrivals are tax payers 😀😀😀

The naivety is astounding 

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IAM IN PARADISE

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The Norwegians have a population of 5.5 million ,with a country larger than the u k , and arguably the best lifestyle and standard of living on the planet .

Iam aware of their gas reserves , and the use of the profits .

You can do that when you have a manageable population .

What is norways birth rate ? 

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Apparently norways birth rate is 1.71 - which leaves firstworldproblems argument in tatters 

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2 hours ago, simmo said:

A future outside of the EU.

What scares you?

And what are the tangible benefits that brings?

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2 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

And what are the tangible benefits that brings?

Bit late for that argument isn't it.

The argument has been run and won years ago.

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I want it all, and I want it now.

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13 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

I suppose I am a hopeless optimist.  I'd like to think that if we can talk things through without resorting to insults and tribalism, that we can move closer to common ground.  If we can do that, we might be able to limit the worst of the impacts and try to make it successful.

I think what Ken is saying is that economic arguments are irrelevant to many Brexiteers.

It's similar to when people are unhappy in Australia, and come to PomsinOz for advice on whether they should go home to the UK.  There are always people who post stuff about what a basket case the UK is so they'd be mad to return, but that's not the point - even if Australia was an economic paradise (which it isn't) they wouldn't be happy.  They have a visceral need to be in their own country and that's what matters to them.

I think Brexiteers are the same.  They have no understanding of the economics of it and don't want to know.  They just want their old country back.  

The sad thing is that the unhappy Poms in Australia can go home and make a success of it - whereas the Brexiteers are going to find that even outside the EU, the old Britain they're pining for can't ever come back.

Edited by Marisawright
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29 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

I think what Ken is saying is that economic arguments are irrelevant to many Brexiteers.

It's similar to when people are unhappy in Australia, and come to PomsinOz for advice on whether they should go home to the UK.  There are always people who post stuff about what a basket case the UK is so they'd be mad to return, but that's not the point - even if Australia was an economic paradise (which it isn't) they wouldn't be happy.  They have a visceral need to be in their own country and that's what matters to them.

I think Brexiteers are the same.  They have no understanding of the economics of it and don't want to know.  They just want their old country back.  

The sad thing is that the unhappy Poms in Australia can go home and make a success of it - whereas the Brexiteers are going to find that even outside the EU, the old Britain they're pining for can't ever come back.

Great. Pin pong brexit voters.

So we have decades of moaning to look forward to?

Edited by newjez
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Nearly there! Don't drop the ball now guys! Vaccines are weeks away. Stay safe!

 

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