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simmo

The (all new) Brexit Thread

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5 minutes ago, simmo said:

sorry, i've had a busy day and catching up.  If we do not carry out due diligence in terms of risk mitigation, your lot will be all over him when the EU punishes the uk for daring to leave the EU.  The EU care diddly squat about the island of ireland, itf you believe this you are deluded.

Too true the Republic of Ireland are about to be shafted by the EU,  sacrificed to protect lavish lifestyle the EU elite.   

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Jeremy Corbyn on the EU  " A European bureaucracy totally unaccountable to anybody"

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40 minutes ago, simmo said:

see above.  Back against the wall, we all make mistakes.  I like how how accepted this and is putting this right aren't you?  or would you prefer we hand over sovereignty to the EU? 

We signed a legally binding agreement. 

Which of those words are you struggling with?

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49 minutes ago, simmo said:

So you agree that the agreement puts the uk/ni/gfa at risk?  we all make mistakes, should he just let it go and risk all of that?

Good god no.

It was put in there specifically to protect the gfa.

Johnson is putting the gfa at risk.

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9 hours ago, bunbury61 said:

If you are talking tradies in the u.k - I can give you the facts .

Most of my mates are painters- plumbers - electricians and they are stacked out with work .

 My mate has just gone on his own , as a painter - taking bookings now for Feb 21 .

We haven't left yet.

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1 hour ago, amibovered said:

Too true the Republic of Ireland are about to be shafted by the EU,  sacrificed to protect lavish lifestyle the EU elite.   

Johnson is giving the EU an ultimatum. Give him the deal he wants, or there will be a hard border between Ireland and northern Ireland.

He is relying on the EU support for Ireland to give him a deal. Johnson doesn't give a damn about Ireland. He has a gun to it's head.

Explain in a thousand words or less how Johnson has Ireland's best interests at heart?

Edited by newjez
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1 hour ago, simmo said:

sorry, i've had a busy day and catching up.  If we do not carry out due diligence in terms of risk mitigation, your lot will be all over him when the EU punishes the uk for daring to leave the EU.  The EU care diddly squat about the island of ireland, itf you believe this you are deluded.

We are all assuming that Johnson screwed up and didn't realize what was in the withdrawal agreement.

Easy assumption to make. The man's an idiot.

But we know Cummings is driving this. The other alternative is they signed the withdrawal agreement in the full knowledge they would ignore it.

They have a gun to Ireland's head. The EU gives in or they shoot Ireland.

If that is the case, who would ever trust us?

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16 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

Do I understand correctly that your position is that Brexit won't have a significant negative effect on the economy and lives of the regular working folk of the UK?

I'm genuinely interested in the positives you believe it will bring.  I truly am unable to see even one, but I concede that I may well be blinkered by the overwhelming concerns that I have.

If the UK had done well whilst in the EU, or seen some dramatic improvement, I might think differently. I'm old enough to remember before we were in EU the UK was fine then and it will be again.

Covid will be a much bigger shock to the world than Brexit.

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8 minutes ago, Paul1Perth said:

If the UK had done well whilst in the EU, or seen some dramatic improvement, I might think differently. I'm old enough to remember before we were in EU the UK was fine then and it will be again.

I agree with that.  I think the UK should never have joined in the first place.  We could have had a deal like Norway's and we would have been much better off.  

If Brexit could just turn the clock back to where we were then, I'd be fine with it.  The trouble is, the UK has already been a member of the EU for a very long time, and a lot of things have been changed by that membership. Too many systems are too entangled.  Leaving is far more complicated than just going back to the way we were and it's going to do a lot of damage IMO.


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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15 minutes ago, Paul1Perth said:

If the UK had done well whilst in the EU, or seen some dramatic improvement, I might think differently. I'm old enough to remember before we were in EU the UK was fine then and it will be again.

Covid will be a much bigger shock to the world than Brexit.

Do you not think it a coincidence that the UK had a shambles of a car industry, not to mention other industries and the winter of discontent and all that before they entered the EU, and the world beating car industry, not to mention other industries that we also have now that we've been a member of the EU?

If it wasn't the EU, how to you explain the shambles Britain was in before entering the EU, and it's world beating economy just before we started to leave?

What else caused the transformation? 

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1 hour ago, newjez said:

Do you not think it a coincidence that the UK had a shambles of a car industry, not to mention other industries and the winter of discontent and all that before they entered the EU, and the world beating car industry, not to mention other industries that we also have now that we've been a member of the EU?

If it wasn't the EU, how to you explain the shambles Britain was in before entering the EU, and it's world beating economy just before we started to leave?

What else caused the transformation? 

World beating car industry? The government had to pay subsidies to get the plants where they are. Be a question if they've been a positive contributor to GNP. 

They are supplying much needed jobs in run down areas so that's a win.

I don't remember Britain being in a shambles, apart from the Thatcher years when she decided to take on the unions. It was during her time in power that we decided to emigrate.

If you had a world beating economy it certainly passed a lot of people by. London and the South seemed to do OK, if you could afford the astronomical prices for a house. Up North a different matter.

If the EU had been so good the Brexit vote wouldn't have even been close.

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2 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I agree with that.  I think the UK should never have joined in the first place.  We could have had a deal like Norway's and we would have been much better off.  

If Brexit could just turn the clock back to where we were then, I'd be fine with it.  The trouble is, the UK has already been a member of the EU for a very long time, and a lot of things have been changed by that membership. Too many systems are too entangled.  Leaving is far more complicated than just going back to the way we were and it's going to do a lot of damage IMO.

That's what governments are in place for, give them something to get their teeth into, rather than just sit round talking about stuff.

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51 minutes ago, Paul1Perth said:

That's what governments are in place for, give them something to get their teeth into, rather than just sit round talking about stuff.

Of course, but it's going to cost a lot of money to do the untangling.


Scot by birth, emigrated 1985 | Aussie husband applied UK spouse visa Jan 2015, granted March 2015, moved to UK May 2015 | Returned to Oz June 2016

"The stranger who comes home does not make himself at home but makes home itself strange." -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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14 hours ago, newjez said:

Johnson is giving the EU an ultimatum. Give him the deal he wants, or there will be a hard border between Ireland and northern Ireland.

He is relying on the EU support for Ireland to give him a deal. Johnson doesn't give a damn about Ireland. He has a gun to it's head.

Explain in a thousand words or less how Johnson has Ireland's best interests at heart?

A thousand words!

There are only a dozen needed,  "It's all the EU's fault, they won't give us what we want"

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14 hours ago, newjez said:

We are all assuming that Johnson screwed up and didn't realize what was in the withdrawal agreement.

Easy assumption to make. The man's an idiot.

But we know Cummings is driving this. The other alternative is they signed the withdrawal agreement in the full knowledge they would ignore it.

They have a gun to Ireland's head. The EU gives in or they shoot Ireland.

If that is the case, who would ever trust us?

Two of the legal team advising Boris and beginner Suella on ignoring international treaties published a paper 2 years ago about making the case for national laws to pre empt international obligations.

As they say, go figure

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And who wanted to trade on WTO rules?

 Who thought WTO rules would work in our favour?

Who thought WTO rules would make trading with the US a safe option?

could all those in the class who were advocates please put their hand up!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/trump-attacks-wto-after-it-says-us-tariffs-on-china-broke-global-trade-rules

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8 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

If the UK had done well whilst in the EU, or seen some dramatic improvement, I might think differently. I'm old enough to remember before we were in EU the UK was fine then and it will be again.

Covid will be a much bigger shock to the world than Brexit.

So no tangible positives then?    

Quote

I'm old enough to remember before we were in EU the UK was fine then

No it wasn't.  We joined the EU as the sick man of Europe.  We watched gross domestic product grow by 95% in Germany, France and Italy (the three founder memers of the EEC closest to us in size) between 1953 when the EEU was set up and 1973 whilst we languished at 50%

Quote

If the UK had done well whilst in the EU, or seen some dramatic improvement, I might think differently

Once we became a member, we began to catch up and GDP has grown faster than Germany, Italy and France in the 40 years since we were a member.

Britain has demonstrably benefited massively from being a major player in the biggest trading bloc in the world.

And now we are about to crash out of it, without a deal, to benefit the personal ambitions of politicians and the billionaires who shorted the currency and want to reduce operating costs by removing European workers rights.

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British  | Lived in Australia 2001-02 on 457   | Married Aussie wife & moved back to UK | Plan to return to Sydney 2026 when all kids have finished school

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6 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

World beating car industry? The government had to pay subsidies to get the plants where they are. Be a question if they've been a positive contributor to GNP. 

They are supplying much needed jobs in run down areas so that's a win.

I don't remember Britain being in a shambles, apart from the Thatcher years when she decided to take on the unions. It was during her time in power that we decided to emigrate.

If you had a world beating economy it certainly passed a lot of people by. London and the South seemed to do OK, if you could afford the astronomical prices for a house. Up North a different matter.

If the EU had been so good the Brexit vote wouldn't have even been close.

I'm sorry, but this is patently false.  The car industry WAS a shambles.  In fact the biggest challenge Britain had before joining the EEC was it's industries had a lack of competition and so were poorly managed and produced lower quality product.  The opinion of economists is overwhelmingly that increasing competition (along with open trade) is behind the prosperity we've enjoyed over the past 4 decades.

The brexit vote was so close, in my opinion, because for 40 years we've had mass dis-information driven by those that own the media we read and who were incentivised to have us look elsewhere for an enemy whilst they added billions to their personal wealth

 

I see that the car industry has come together to issue a report this morning warning that exiting the EU without a trade deal will be "catastrophic", costing as much as £100bn over the next 5 years.  A big number, but when you consider that margins on cars are single digit %'s and that a no deal means a 10% tariff......well it's not hard to do the math.

Edited by FirstWorldProblems
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British  | Lived in Australia 2001-02 on 457   | Married Aussie wife & moved back to UK | Plan to return to Sydney 2026 when all kids have finished school

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9 hours ago, Paul1Perth said:

If the UK had done well whilst in the EU, or seen some dramatic improvement, I might think differently. I'm old enough to remember before we were in EU the UK was fine then and it will be again.

The UK did very well out of the EU.

Like many places in the UK, the area we live in has seen many more initiatives and funding from the EU than from previous UK Govts.

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19 hours ago, bunbury61 said:

Well , stop worrying then , its already done , there's nothing you can do about it .

It's the crashing out without a deal that we should all be doing something about.  We should be holding the people to account who promised a better future and the easiest deal in history, a better deal than we had before.  No deal will just continue the economic downturn and we'll all see more people we know and love losing their jobs and struggling.

Quote

Iam 100% behind brexit , and once the dust settles , I think it will be a great future for the u.k .

What are the benefits you see for our future?


British  | Lived in Australia 2001-02 on 457   | Married Aussie wife & moved back to UK | Plan to return to Sydney 2026 when all kids have finished school

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18 hours ago, simmo said:

  I like how how accepted this and is putting this right aren't you?  or would you prefer we hand over sovereignty to the EU? 

For decades we have CHOSEN to pool aspects of our sovereign power in the EU to achieve national objectives  that we couldn't have achieved on our own - the single market, European climate change agreement, curtailing the Iran nuclear programme.

Through all that time the British government still determines the vast majority of policy over every issue, including pensions, defence, border security, education, health, welfare etc.  

We never lost our sovereignty, we only gained by banding together with others.

What is it you feel that we lost?

Edited by FirstWorldProblems
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British  | Lived in Australia 2001-02 on 457   | Married Aussie wife & moved back to UK | Plan to return to Sydney 2026 when all kids have finished school

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2 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

So no tangible positives then?    

No it wasn't.  We joined the EU as the sick man of Europe.  We watched gross domestic product grow by 95% in Germany, France and Italy (the three founder memers of the EEC closest to us in size) between 1953 when the EEU was set up and 1973 whilst we languished at 50%

Once we became a member, we began to catch up and GDP has grown faster than Germany, Italy and France in the 40 years since we were a member.

Britain has demonstrably benefited massively from being a major player in the biggest trading bloc in the world.

And now we are about to crash out of it, without a deal, to benefit the personal ambitions of politicians and the billionaires who shorted the currency and want to reduce operating costs by removing European workers rights.

Spot on, but don't let a few facts spoil a good story.

I do like a good story myself.

At least that's one thing this govt can be be relied on for

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2 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

For decades we have CHOSEN to pool aspects of our sovereign power in the EU to achieve national objectives  that we couldn't have achieved on our own - the single market, European climate change agreement, curtailing the Iran nuclear programme.

Through all that time the British government still determines the vast majority of policy over every issue, including pensions, defence, border security, education, health, welfare etc.  

We never lost our sovereignty, we only gained by banding together with others.

What is it you feel that we lost?

Land of Hope and Glory, Rule Britannia,  the Empire, the death sentence, the 'mini', car and skirt, Til' death us do part, the 'Carry on films,' Suez, Hong Kong,

What we are about to lose is our international reputation and the last remnants of our manufacturing industry sacrificed on the altar of one mans hunger for power and an unelected officials obsessive belief in his own overwhelming intellect, the first an upper class twit and the other a psychotic psychopath

Edited by BacktoDemocracy
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On 15/09/2020 at 16:18, simmo said:

So you agree that the agreement puts the uk/ni/gfa at risk?  we all make mistakes, should he just let it go and risk all of that?

You call that a mistake, I would characterise that as rank incompetance and lack of attention to detail bordering on foolishness.

Boris and his ministers have not anticipated  one occurrence in this pandemic , they failed to lock down early enough, they had insufficient  PPE, the NHS had been run down, test and trace has been a shambles and now we are supposed to believe this oaf's accusation of the EU of not negotiating in good faith.  

Whether they are or are not is now irrelevant,  I do not believe a deal can now be achieved under these conditions 

 

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So we gave up the corrupt EU for this bunch of shysters getting their snouts in the taxpayers trough.

The first of the big payoffs for the brexit mob.

so altruistic this bunch 

pity isn't that you were all told. 

What's the excuse going to be now

  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/16/alternative-to-irish-backstop-consultant-shanker-singham-in-line-for-200m-contract

a few billion for a private test and trace system which doesnt work and never will .

Gullible, well you were told.

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19 hours ago, FirstWorldProblems said:

It's the crashing out without a deal that we should all be doing something about.  We should be holding the people to account who promised a better future and the easiest deal in history, a better deal than we had before.  No deal will just continue the economic downturn and we'll all see more people we know and love losing their jobs and struggling.

What are the benefits you see for our future?

Your side seem to regard the sovereignty issue  as jingoistic trivialities.  This article explains it perfectly and why it has nothing to to with any one law or regulation but the overall principle.

https://brexitcentral.com/how-the-british-conception-of-sovereignty-makes-eu-membership-untenable/

 

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