Jump to content

You're currently viewing the forum as a Guest
register-now-button_orig.png
and join in with discussions   
ask migration questions
message other members

..and much much more!

simmo

The (all new) Brexit Thread

Recommended Posts

58 minutes ago, Canada2Australia said:

Once again,  you are reading way too much into this.  And I believe you are bringing your personal grudge against me into this thread. 

But feel free to continue your crusade here as well. It's your country in the end.

Good luck. 

You’re wrong, it’s not a personal grudge it’s a dislike for nationalistic jingoism and dislike of anyone different dressed up as patriotism.

Well it is for me anyway.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kungfustu said:

why not use some of that superior intelligence and education you possess......and learn us......😮

 

3 hours ago, newjez said:

Why don't you just Google it? There really is no excuse for ignorance in this day and age. If you are going to have an opinion on something, I don't think it's asking too much that you do a little research on it? Do you? 

You might not have a degree, but I know many non degree educated people who are quite knowledgeable in their fields of interest. 

I have a mate that failed high school, but he is a world renowned expert in repitles. If you are interested in Irish history, then start reading up on it.

Lose the chip and gain some knowledge.

I wouldn't expect you to understand my comment......and I suppose I am not surprised that once again you have barged in......(the cavalry has arrived)......it was way above your head but Collie understands my point😉

Here you go....I think we have been here once before but for the sake of the cavalry......and only 6 minutes!

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Canada2Australia said:

You as well. Stop trolling my posts. Its completely childish and pathetic. 

BTW,  you are a massive hypocrite for not wanting freedom of movement when you chastised me for my comments about foreign movement in another thread. 

 

It's a discussion board. People respond to other peoples posts. What were you expecting? If you want a private conversation send a message.

I don't object to freedom of movement, but you might find 52% of the population who do. Or is that 33%? who knows - but I don't think it will float.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, newjez said:

 

It's a discussion board. People respond to other peoples posts. What were you expecting? If you want a private conversation send a message.

I don't object to freedom of movement, but you might find 52% of the population who do. Or is that 33%? who knows - but I don't think it will float.

You are only supposed to post comments that agree with a very particular, exclusive view of the mono cultural world

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apologies for the temporary closure of the thread.  Some posts have been removed (there isn't a prize for guessing why). If you can't remember the site rules - there is a link on the home page under guidelines.

  • Like 1

I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No it’s not his country, it’s mine


Might find it’s ours.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

UK facing decades of economic decline, Varadkar warns

New British PM, be it Johnson or Hunt, will have ‘reality check’ on taking office

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar: checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone. Photograph: Kenzo Tribouillard/AFP Taoiseach Leo Varadkar: checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone. Photograph: Kenzo Tribouillard/AFP
Updated: about 5 hours ago
     

Britain will face decades of economic decline after Brexit, Taoiseach Leo Varadkarhas predicted, adding that the UK is “struggling to cope” with its reduced status on the world stage.

Mr Varadkar said that as a country which had left the British empire, Ireland should try to understand better the nationalist motivation of Brexit. However, he said that as a result of leaving the EU, the UK would “fall into relative economic decline for many decades, probably be overtaken by France again. Slowly over time, it’ll be overtaken by lots of countries in Asia.”

He added: “I think that one of the difficulties for Britain is that they’re struggling to cope with the fact that as a country and an economy they’re not as important in the world as they used to be.”

Mr Varadkar also told Newstalk radio on Friday the new British prime minister, whether it is Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt, would face a “reality check” on Brexit when he took office.

Irish officials stressed that while they expected early contacts with the new leader once he takes office later this month, any negotiations on the EU-UK relationship would take place with the EU, not between London and Dublin.

Senior officials said they expected that any new prime minister – the overwhelming favourite is Mr Johnson, but both candidates have pledged to leave the EU by October 31st, with or without a deal – could take a different view when confronted with the responsibilities of office.

image.jpg

BREXIT: The FactRead them hereDomestic hurdleSome senior ources say they believe Mr Johnson would not leave without a deal. Other sources, citing contacts in London, believe that he will face significant domestic hurdles to d so.

On Friday, British business secretary Greg Clark urged Tory MPs to block a no-deal Brexit, warning that such an outcome would cost “many thousands of jobs”.

Documents published by the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland civil service this week warned that a no-deal could cost 50,000 jobs in the Republic and at least 40,000 in the North.

Meanwhile, officials continue to prepare for a no-deal, with some Government sources expressing satisfaction that public expectations had been nudged towards accepting the idea that single market rules would require some form of checks on goods entering the Republic from the UK after a no-deal.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveneyand the Taoiseach suggested this week that some checks may be necessary after a no-deal Brexit, but both say checks will not take place along the Border and no infrastructure will be put in place there.

Port checks

On Friday, Mr Varadkar suggested that checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone for agricultural and food safety rules after Brexit.

For this to happen, he said, London would have to accept that the North was treated differently to the rest of the UK.

Such a move would eliminate the need for checks on animals and animal products at the Border. However, it would have to be negotiated with London and is likely to be opposed by the DUP.

Meanwhile, Conservative MP and former UK attorney general Dominic Grieve has said a “crash-out Brexit” would make a political crisis over the future status of Northern Ireland “more likely”.

Speaking on a visit to Dublin, Mr Grieve told reporters the status of the North remaining within the UK under the Belfast Agreement “would be thrown into jeopardy” by a no-deal Brexit.

 
image.png

Borderlands

A special investigation on Brexit & the BoRead 
  • Like 1
  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Standard of housing looks to be slipping in the Emerald Isle!

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, newjez said:

The obvious reason why Trump has always been in favour of Brexit and a no-deal Brexit.  He loves exploiting weakness and a divided Europe is weak.

If you are pro-Brexit then you are for “America first” and Britain last.

  • Like 4
  • Haha 3

Timeline: 309/100 Sent 7/8/13, Money Taken 9/8/13, CO appointed 3/9/13. Med 3/12/13. Police check 4/12/13. VISA GRANTED 8/4/14, Subclass100. Recce August 2014. Arrived 30 July 2015.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, starlight7 said:

Standard of housing looks to be slipping in the Emerald Isle!

The Celtic Tiger era has left a ­shoddy ­building ­legacy. ­Thousands of homes built during the boom have been found to be ­defective. And all too often ­homeowners are left ­footing the bill.  Condensation and mould a problem in many of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the nitty gritty 

"

GATT’s forgotten MFN exemption

A curious thing about GATT is that it does not say much, if anything, about what happens when a typical Free Trade Area or Customs Union dissolves or a Member exits — but it does say something about the dissolution of and exit from a variety of other relationships. "

in full

(note the above is how to post links to articles) 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, simmo said:

Back to the nitty gritty 

"

GATT’s forgotten MFN exemption

A curious thing about GATT is that it does not say much, if anything, about what happens when a typical Free Trade Area or Customs Union dissolves or a Member exits — but it does say something about the dissolution of and exit from a variety of other relationships. "

in full

(note the above is how to post links to articles) 

If you read the article carefully it is full of’ifs’ and ‘shoulds’ and would also require the cooperation of the EU, which is highly unlikely unless we leave having agreed a deal, otherwise it would be a matter of adjudication and enforcement of ‘no tariffs’ rule, all of which might take, what, 2years, mean time no deal chaos would continue with business exiting, stage left.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Toots said:

The Celtic Tiger era has left a ­shoddy ­building ­legacy. ­Thousands of homes built during the boom have been found to be ­defective. And all too often ­homeowners are left ­footing the bill.  Condensation and mould a problem in many of them.

Surprise, surprise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/7/2019 at 12:03, Collie said:
 

UK facing decades of economic decline, Varadkar warns

New British PM, be it Johnson or Hunt, will have ‘reality check’ on taking office

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar: checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone. Photograph: Kenzo Tribouillard/AFP Taoiseach Leo Varadkar: checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone. Photograph: Kenzo Tribouillard/AFP
Updated: about 5 hours ago
     

Britain will face decades of economic decline after Brexit, Taoiseach Leo Varadkarhas predicted, adding that the UK is “struggling to cope” with its reduced status on the world stage.

Mr Varadkar said that as a country which had left the British empire, Ireland should try to understand better the nationalist motivation of Brexit. However, he said that as a result of leaving the EU, the UK would “fall into relative economic decline for many decades, probably be overtaken by France again. Slowly over time, it’ll be overtaken by lots of countries in Asia.”

He added: “I think that one of the difficulties for Britain is that they’re struggling to cope with the fact that as a country and an economy they’re not as important in the world as they used to be.”

Mr Varadkar also told Newstalk radio on Friday the new British prime minister, whether it is Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt, would face a “reality check” on Brexit when he took office.

Irish officials stressed that while they expected early contacts with the new leader once he takes office later this month, any negotiations on the EU-UK relationship would take place with the EU, not between London and Dublin.

Senior officials said they expected that any new prime minister – the overwhelming favourite is Mr Johnson, but both candidates have pledged to leave the EU by October 31st, with or without a deal – could take a different view when confronted with the responsibilities of office.

image.jpg

BREXIT: The FactRead them hereDomestic hurdleSome senior ources say they believe Mr Johnson would not leave without a deal. Other sources, citing contacts in London, believe that he will face significant domestic hurdles to d so.

On Friday, British business secretary Greg Clark urged Tory MPs to block a no-deal Brexit, warning that such an outcome would cost “many thousands of jobs”.

Documents published by the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland civil service this week warned that a no-deal could cost 50,000 jobs in the Republic and at least 40,000 in the North.

Meanwhile, officials continue to prepare for a no-deal, with some Government sources expressing satisfaction that public expectations had been nudged towards accepting the idea that single market rules would require some form of checks on goods entering the Republic from the UK after a no-deal.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveneyand the Taoiseach suggested this week that some checks may be necessary after a no-deal Brexit, but both say checks will not take place along the Border and no infrastructure will be put in place there.

Port checks

On Friday, Mr Varadkar suggested that checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone for agricultural and food safety rules after Brexit.

For this to happen, he said, London would have to accept that the North was treated differently to the rest of the UK.

Such a move would eliminate the need for checks on animals and animal products at the Border. However, it would have to be negotiated with London and is likely to be opposed by the DUP.

Meanwhile, Conservative MP and former UK attorney general Dominic Grieve has said a “crash-out Brexit” would make a political crisis over the future status of Northern Ireland “more likely”.

Speaking on a visit to Dublin, Mr Grieve told reporters the status of the North remaining within the UK under the Belfast Agreement “would be thrown into jeopardy” by a no-deal Brexit.

 
image.png

Borderlands

A special investigation on Brexit & the BoRead 

It is so f**king obvious to everybody not infected with English nationalism that it almost requires no comment.

It will be entertaining to watch Johnson finally to occupy a position where he will be held accountable for his lies, or am I just kidding myself.

Another Trump? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said:

It is so f**king obvious to everybody not infected with English nationalism that it almost requires no comment.

It will be entertaining to watch Johnson finally to occupy a position where he will be held accountable for his lies, or am I just kidding myself.

Another Trump? 

He will just blame Parliament for blocking no deal whilst breathing a sigh of relief.  And of course the EU for continued intransigence.

How far the bluff and bluster carries him I will be interested to see.

Saw an excerpt of his interview with Andrew Neil.  In a previous era such ignorance on the part of a would-be PM would be terminal.  Unfortunately stupidity and ignorance are prized currency these days.

Jeremy Hunt just sounds like Theresa May with a (slightly) deeper voice.  Anyway, he has no chance with the Tory blue-rinse brigade who are choosing the next PM.

Edited by Gbye grey sky
  • Like 2

Timeline: 309/100 Sent 7/8/13, Money Taken 9/8/13, CO appointed 3/9/13. Med 3/12/13. Police check 4/12/13. VISA GRANTED 8/4/14, Subclass100. Recce August 2014. Arrived 30 July 2015.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14/07/2019 at 17:14, simmo said:

Back to the nitty gritty 

"

GATT’s forgotten MFN exemption

A curious thing about GATT is that it does not say much, if anything, about what happens when a typical Free Trade Area or Customs Union dissolves or a Member exits — but it does say something about the dissolution of and exit from a variety of other relationships. "

in full

(note the above is how to post links to articles) 

Seriously, are you going to rely on this for continuation of free trade with the EU and an open border in Ireland following leaving without a deal and the accompanying threats to withhold the UK contributions to future agreed EU expenditure?

  • Like 1

Timeline: 309/100 Sent 7/8/13, Money Taken 9/8/13, CO appointed 3/9/13. Med 3/12/13. Police check 4/12/13. VISA GRANTED 8/4/14, Subclass100. Recce August 2014. Arrived 30 July 2015.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/07/2019 at 12:03, Collie said:
 

UK facing decades of economic decline, Varadkar warns

New British PM, be it Johnson or Hunt, will have ‘reality check’ on taking office

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar: checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone. Photograph: Kenzo Tribouillard/AFP Taoiseach Leo Varadkar: checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone. Photograph: Kenzo Tribouillard/AFP
Updated: about 5 hours ago
     

Britain will face decades of economic decline after Brexit, Taoiseach Leo Varadkarhas predicted, adding that the UK is “struggling to cope” with its reduced status on the world stage.

Mr Varadkar said that as a country which had left the British empire, Ireland should try to understand better the nationalist motivation of Brexit. However, he said that as a result of leaving the EU, the UK would “fall into relative economic decline for many decades, probably be overtaken by France again. Slowly over time, it’ll be overtaken by lots of countries in Asia.”

He added: “I think that one of the difficulties for Britain is that they’re struggling to cope with the fact that as a country and an economy they’re not as important in the world as they used to be.”

Mr Varadkar also told Newstalk radio on Friday the new British prime minister, whether it is Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt, would face a “reality check” on Brexit when he took office.

Irish officials stressed that while they expected early contacts with the new leader once he takes office later this month, any negotiations on the EU-UK relationship would take place with the EU, not between London and Dublin.

Senior officials said they expected that any new prime minister – the overwhelming favourite is Mr Johnson, but both candidates have pledged to leave the EU by October 31st, with or without a deal – could take a different view when confronted with the responsibilities of office.

image.jpg

BREXIT: The FactRead them hereDomestic hurdleSome senior ources say they believe Mr Johnson would not leave without a deal. Other sources, citing contacts in London, believe that he will face significant domestic hurdles to d so.

On Friday, British business secretary Greg Clark urged Tory MPs to block a no-deal Brexit, warning that such an outcome would cost “many thousands of jobs”.

Documents published by the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland civil service this week warned that a no-deal could cost 50,000 jobs in the Republic and at least 40,000 in the North.

Meanwhile, officials continue to prepare for a no-deal, with some Government sources expressing satisfaction that public expectations had been nudged towards accepting the idea that single market rules would require some form of checks on goods entering the Republic from the UK after a no-deal.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveneyand the Taoiseach suggested this week that some checks may be necessary after a no-deal Brexit, but both say checks will not take place along the Border and no infrastructure will be put in place there.

Port checks

On Friday, Mr Varadkar suggested that checks on live animals and products could be carried out at ports in Northern Ireland and the Republic if the British government and the EU agreed to treat the island of Ireland as a single zone for agricultural and food safety rules after Brexit.

For this to happen, he said, London would have to accept that the North was treated differently to the rest of the UK.

Such a move would eliminate the need for checks on animals and animal products at the Border. However, it would have to be negotiated with London and is likely to be opposed by the DUP.

Meanwhile, Conservative MP and former UK attorney general Dominic Grieve has said a “crash-out Brexit” would make a political crisis over the future status of Northern Ireland “more likely”.

Speaking on a visit to Dublin, Mr Grieve told reporters the status of the North remaining within the UK under the Belfast Agreement “would be thrown into jeopardy” by a no-deal Brexit.

 
image.png

Borderlands

A special investigation on Brexit & the BoRead 

Varadkar and Macron's bums are twitching .

Collie - let's see who is left standing after the dust has settled.

Give it 5 years after brexit , and see where we are .

Iam not going to get into one of those long running posting matches with you .

For the record eire has a hell of a lot to lose , if they push britains nose out of joint .

It wasn't the french and germans that came running to bail ireland out , during the last financial crisis , it was the u.k , and how many billions was that ?

This is f..k all to do with empire and all that bollox .

This is about a sovereign country taking a democratic vote to leave , a failing undemocratic institution .

When the 27 fall , ireland will most likely be cast adrift , and where will you come calling ? 

The united states and britain ,that's where .

They have just carried out " behind closed doors" elections in the e.u .

Behind those close doors were reps from germany , france , holland , and one or two stragglers .

When this lot falls , this will be your NEW E.U .

No Latvia,  no Hungary and no ireland 

6 or 7 countries - just remember this post .

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
  • Sad 1

BUT I DONT FEEL AFRAID

AS LONG AS I GAZE AT

WATERLOO SUNSET

IAM IN PARADISE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, bunbury61 said:

Varadkar and Macron's bums are twitching .

Collie - let's see who is left standing after the dust has settled.

Give it 5 years after brexit , and see where we are .

Iam not going to get into one of those long running posting matches with you .

For the record eire has a hell of a lot to lose , if they push britains nose out of joint .

It wasn't the french and germans that came running to bail ireland out , during the last financial crisis , it was the u.k , and how many billions was that ?

This is f..k all to do with empire and all that bollox .

This is about a sovereign country taking a democratic vote to leave , a failing undemocratic institution .

When the 27 fall , ireland will most likely be cast adrift , and where will you come calling ? 

The united states and britain ,that's where .

They have just carried out " behind closed doors" elections in the e.u .

Behind those close doors were reps from germany , france , holland , and one or two stragglers .

When this lot falls , this will be your NEW E.U .

No Latvia,  no Hungary and no ireland 

6 or 7 countries - just remember this post .

 

You have been claiming the EU would bend and break for the past 3 years.  Guess what, it hasn’t happened.  Unfortunately for you I do remember all your crap predictions.

The EU have been honest in their assessment that Brexit and, specifically Brexit with no trading arrangements in place, will be bad for the EU.

It is only the lying Brits who claim that leaving with no trading arrangements will be a good thing for the UK.

 

  • Like 4
  • Haha 1

Timeline: 309/100 Sent 7/8/13, Money Taken 9/8/13, CO appointed 3/9/13. Med 3/12/13. Police check 4/12/13. VISA GRANTED 8/4/14, Subclass100. Recce August 2014. Arrived 30 July 2015.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

You have been claiming the EU would bend and break for the past 3 years.  Guess what, it hasn’t happened.  Unfortunately for you I do remember all your crap predictions.

The EU have been honest in their assessment that Brexit and, specifically Brexit with no trading arrangements in place, will be bad for the EU.

It is only the lying Brits who claim that leaving with no trading arrangements will be a good thing for the UK.

 

It will take longer than 3 years - it's not going to happen overnight , but as 27 ,it will fall , and I will be back to remind you 😂

Patience .

By my crap predictions , do you mean 

Brexit , when it was 12 points behind 

A trump presidency 

Or were you referring to my prediction of boris johnson as the next prime minister - and that was months ago - in fact it was probably over 12 months ago 

So my 3 out of 3 crap predictions , ain't bad .

The others are yet to pan out , but if you are a betting person , get your money on the e.u 27 breaking up in the future 👍

  • Haha 1

BUT I DONT FEEL AFRAID

AS LONG AS I GAZE AT

WATERLOO SUNSET

IAM IN PARADISE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said:

You have been claiming the EU would bend and break for the past 3 years.  Guess what, it hasn’t happened.  Unfortunately for you I do remember all your crap predictions.

The EU have been honest in their assessment that Brexit and, specifically Brexit with no trading arrangements in place, will be bad for the EU.

It is only the lying Brits who claim that leaving with no trading arrangements will be a good thing for the UK.

 

I'm finding that as the time ticks by it becomes clearer and clearer that the delusions do not weaken they get stronger as the evidence mounts against the delusions, maybe the strength of denial overrides reason, maybe there is no reasoning which can shake the beliefs, maybe we will just have to go thro all the stages like the bereaved have to, there are no short cuts.

The Germans were allowed to believe they were not beaten on the battlefield in the 1st WW and therefore were ripe for the message that the Jews, the Communists and the degenerates were the reason they lost and then those delusions allowed them to have  another crack at it and only when they had to face some brutal truths ( or at least those whose indoctrination failed sufficiently) did they then realise consolidation was a way forward. 

So maybe we just have to say it is going to be a shit fight between a bunch of privileged , over indulged children whose accelerated propulsion into adulthood is going to involve us all in a tiresome journey as the police and the courts get involved in forcing responsibility on them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, bunbury61 said:

It will take longer than 3 years - it's not going to happen overnight , but as 27 ,it will fall , and I will be back to remind you 😂

Patience .

By my crap predictions , do you mean 

Brexit , when it was 12 points behind 

A trump presidency 

Or were you referring to my prediction of boris johnson as the next prime minister - and that was months ago - in fact it was probably over 12 months ago 

So my 3 out of 3 crap predictions , ain't bad .

The others are yet to pan out , but if you are a betting person , get your money on the e.u 27 breaking up in the future 👍

I think everyone feared those outcomes because so many could see the appeal of the lies that underpinned their success, so I don't think you can claim much foresight there.

Shall I give you another couple of prophecies

One, if the EU does fail to hold together then Europe will enter a period of wars similar to 17 - 1800's but infinitely more destructive

Two, we will throw our lot in with the USA and will become their puppet providing a new market for their rubbish agricultural products and giving legitimacy to their  fascism and providing a giant floating launch pad for their wars.

Unfortunately I may be around to see how it pans out

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think another European war is quite possible and one of the main pro EU arguments , to me, is it seems to have stopped one. Everyone will associate the UK with the USA post Brexit, of course. I would go as far as to say UK will be the Unofficial 51st State .Maybe they will dump all the fleeing South Americans over there, wouldn't surprise me.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×