Gbye grey sky Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Since HMRC changed the rules in 2015 the only way to transfer a UK private pension over to an Australian Super has been by means of a SMSF and you have to be over 55. I qualify on age but after extensive research would rather not have an SMSF. In October 2016 a single retail super provider set up a QROPS compliant Super Fund which I will not name on an open forum and I am very tempted to use them to transfer my pension as I am 57 now. For tax reasons alone it makes no sense to draw my pension from the UK either through an annuity or some drawdown arrangement. My major concern is trying to satisfy myself that this provider is 100% kosher and there is no risk that I could lose my pension. My hope is that this is tightly regulated to protect the pension holder but how would I know this? I guess I am a little suspicious that there is only the one provider that has been HMRC accredited since 2015 and none appear to have followed this lead throughout 2017. Looking to pool knowledge and experience with any other UK expats in their 50s and 60s holding UK private pensions faced with similar dilemma on what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 This may be a silly question, but is there anything to stop you transferring your pension into a SMSF as cash, then after a suitable interval, closing down the SMSF and transferring it all into an industry super fund? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 10 hours ago, Marisawright said: This may be a silly question, but is there anything to stop you transferring your pension into a SMSF as cash, then after a suitable interval, closing down the SMSF and transferring it all into an industry super fund? I understand that there are HMRC reporting requirements for 10 years which would prevent this and probably other gotchas too. Nice to see you back on the forum Marisa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 On 4/01/2018 at 05:54, Gbye grey sky said: Since HMRC changed the rules in 2015 the only way to transfer a UK private pension over to an Australian Super has been by means of a SMSF and you have to be over 55. I qualify on age but after extensive research would rather not have an SMSF. In October 2016 a single retail super provider set up a QROPS compliant Super Fund which I will not name on an open forum and I am very tempted to use them to transfer my pension as I am 57 now. For tax reasons alone it makes no sense to draw my pension from the UK either through an annuity or some drawdown arrangement. My major concern is trying to satisfy myself that this provider is 100% kosher and there is no risk that I could lose my pension. My hope is that this is tightly regulated to protect the pension holder but how would I know this? I guess I am a little suspicious that there is only the one provider that has been HMRC accredited since 2015 and none appear to have followed this lead throughout 2017. Looking to pool knowledge and experience with any other UK expats in their 50s and 60s holding UK private pensions faced with similar dilemma on what to do. G`day Gbye GreySky, Excellent post, very well described and very well put...... I have just signed up with this forum having just stumbled on your post, I believe I am in a very similar position and completely share your thoughts and comments on this.... Disappointed that this post has stalled and seems to have all but fizzed out, I also tend to favour the sole Aussie QROPS compliant super fund that you are referring to (very much share your security concerns with this fund too), I also share your thoughts on a QROPS SMSF being unattractive, too much downside or Gotchas as you aptly put it....... The only other option seems to be a SIPP of some type or description?..... Just seems to me that the Aussie QROPS compliant super fund appears to be the most correct vehicle to use to complete the transfer, but how safe and secure are your pension funds with them?...... Also how long do you have to keep your pensions in this fund (Or any other Vehicle) before you can finally complete the transfer to your final Aussie super fund destination???...... Very, Very disappointed and frustrated that after all this time, even for the over 55`s there is still no obvious workable recommended direction or solution available to successfully transfer UK private pensions to Australia........... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 4, 2018 Author Share Posted May 4, 2018 This issue does not only affect Poms either. Any Ozzie who has spent time working in the UK and provided with a private pension by their employer (contributory or not) is also in this dilemma. My wife has now turned 55 so can move her pension over so we have the problem x 2 now. We have gone full circle now as a joint SMSF is looking more tenable given that we can ‘pool’ the two UK SiPPs into a single joint SMSF and benefit from some economies of scale. It somewhat irks me though that UK pension funds seem to insist now on acting through a UK financial advisor and setting up an SMSF is far from a straightforward process necessitating another ‘expert’. It all seems a giant rort effectively aided and abetted by the governments of the UK and Australia to place a significant proportion of your UK pension savings into the hands of a number of 3rd parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 For anyone else curious about all this, this is a good article http://www.afr.com/personal-finance/superannuation-and-smsfs/how-to-transfer-uk-pension-to-australia-20171206-h00c17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 4, 2018 Author Share Posted May 4, 2018 25 minutes ago, Marisawright said: For anyone else curious about all this, this is a good article http://www.afr.com/personal-finance/superannuation-and-smsfs/how-to-transfer-uk-pension-to-australia-20171206-h00c17 Access by subscription only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said: Access by subscription only. How odd, I don't have a subscription and I just read the whole thing. all I get is a banner across the bottom suggesting I sign up, but it scrolls out of the way as I scroll down. Anyway, it explains why standard Australian super funds can't meet the requirements to be QROPS compliant. The British rules require that there must be NO way to access the funds before you're 55 - but all Australian super funds allow you to access your funds early in case of hardship. So it's that one little rule that's stuffing everything up. I can understand Australian super funds being reluctant to remove the hardship provisions, because it would make them less attractive for most customers (what local person would choose a fund with no hardship provision, when there are plenty that have one?). So the only way you're going to find a compliant super fund is if a private company decides to create one especially for expats. It looks like only one company, Tidswell Financial Services, has decided it's worth their while. Their fund is called the Australian Expatriate Super Fund (AESF). Edited May 5, 2018 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, Marisawright said: How odd, I don't have a subscription and I just read the whole thing. all I get is a banner across the bottom suggesting I sign up, but it scrolls out of the way as I scroll down. Might not workfor me as I am accessing via an iPad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Marisawright said: How odd, I don't have a subscription and I just read the whole thing. all I get is a banner across the bottom suggesting I sign up, but it scrolls out of the way as I scroll down. I am familiar with this article having read it previously, I can also access it and do not have a subscription....... It does mention the sole Aussie QROPS compliant retail super fund that we were referring to earlier in this post...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 https://directdocs.com.au/ozsmsfdocs.html#completeq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Gbye grey sky said: This issue does not only affect Poms either. Any Ozzie who has spent time working in the UK and provided with a private pension by their employer (contributory or not) is also in this dilemma. My wife has now turned 55 so can move her pension over so we have the problem x 2 now. We have gone full circle now as a joint SMSF is looking more tenable given that we can ‘pool’ the two UK SiPPs into a single joint SMSF and benefit from some economies of scale. It somewhat irks me though that UK pension funds seem to insist now on acting through a UK financial advisor and setting up an SMSF is far from a straightforward process necessitating another ‘expert’. It all seems a giant rort effectively aided and abetted by the governments of the UK and Australia to place a significant proportion of your UK pension savings into the hands of a number of 3rd parties. I feel sure that many people will share our predicament, there are plenty of obstacles and apparently no clear pathway or direction to achieve a simple and smooth transfer of your UK pension to Australian Super....... It is being suggested that once you reach 55yrs of age, it is straightforward to complete the process, many people are queing up for this age barrier to pass, however there is still a significant minefield to navigate, many people offering advice... BUT.... the stakes are very high when you can lose your life savings and who can you trust or put your faith in......... Just have a look at the Aussie Banking system and royal commission for example....... Plenty of barriers and obstacles, no directions, pathways or solutions...... Clock is ticking, how long can you afford to wait....... Seemingly, historically with time comes extra complexity and obstacles...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 12 minutes ago, Marisawright said: https://directdocs.com.au/ozsmsfdocs.html#completeq Many Thanks M, I am also somewhat familiar with this site too........ Like I said earlier..... "It is being suggested that once you reach 55yrs of age, it is straightforward to complete the process, many people are queing up for this age barrier to pass, however there is still a significant minefield to navigate, many people offering advice... BUT.... the stakes are very high when you can lose your life savings and who can you trust or put your faith in......... Plenty of barriers and obstacles, no directions, pathways or solutions...... Clock is ticking, how long can you afford to wait....... Seemingly, historically with time comes extra complexity and obstacles......" Same Site you have quoted, have a look here...... A little light reading....... https://directdocs.com.au/ozsmigrants.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Gbye grey sky said: This issue does not only affect Poms either. Any Ozzie who has spent time working in the UK and provided with a private pension by their employer (contributory or not) is also in this dilemma. My wife has now turned 55 so can move her pension over so we have the problem x 2 now. We have gone full circle now as a joint SMSF is looking more tenable given that we can ‘pool’ the two UK SiPPs into a single joint SMSF and benefit from some economies of scale. It somewhat irks me though that UK pension funds seem to insist now on acting through a UK financial advisor and setting up an SMSF is far from a straightforward process necessitating another ‘expert’. It all seems a giant rort effectively aided and abetted by the governments of the UK and Australia to place a significant proportion of your UK pension savings into the hands of a number of 3rd parties. G`day GG Sky, I too share your ability to continue travelling in ever increasing circles on this issue, I am sure there are many, many others on similar orbits to ourselves..... I quote "We have gone full circle now as a joint SMSF is looking more tenable given that we can ‘pool’ the two UK SiPPs into a single joint SMSF and benefit from some economies of scale." I have seen suggestions where SMSF, QROPS SMSF and SIPP`s are all being touted as potential vehicles that could be utilised in UK pension transfer to Aussie Super, it seems you guys already have UK SIPPS, have you considered tranferring your existing SIPPS directly across to Aussie Super thereby possibly avoiding the extra complexity of additional SMSF or QROPS SMSF..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, MaxV said: Many Thanks M, I am also somewhat familiar with this site too........ Like I said earlier..... "It is being suggested that once you reach 55yrs of age, it is straightforward to complete the process, many people are queing up for this age barrier to pass, however there is still a significant minefield to navigate, many people offering advice... BUT.... the stakes are very high when you can lose your life savings and who can you trust or put your faith in......... Plenty of barriers and obstacles, no directions, pathways or solutions...... Clock is ticking, how long can you afford to wait....... Seemingly, historically with time comes extra complexity and obstacles......" I posted the link a few minutes before you did. I don't think anyone has suggested the process is straightforward. It's just that under the new rules, you effectively have no choice but to wait until you're 55. The process should be simple, except that the British regulations insist on the "no access till you're 55" rule, which no standard Australian super fund can meet. It's stupid really - if you can't transfer the money until you're 55, why does it matter if the rules of the Australian super fund say you can access it before 55???? Surely they could make a rule that IF you transfer the pension AFTER you've reached 55, that restriction isn't necessary - then you'd have your choice of every superannuation fund in Australia, because that's the only obstacle to them being compliant. Another example of crazy bureaucracy! Edited May 5, 2018 by Marisawright 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Marisawright said: I posted the link a few minutes before you did. I don't think anyone has suggested the process is straightforward. It's just that under the new rules, you effectively have no choice but to wait until you're 55. The process should be simple, except that the British regulations insist on the "no access till you're 55" rule, which no standard Australian super fund can meet. It's stupid really - if you can't transfer the money until you're 55, why does it matter if the rules of the Australian super fund say you can access it before 55???? Surely they could make a rule that IF you transfer the pension AFTER you've reached 55, that restriction isn't necessary - then you'd have your choice of every superannuation fund in Australia, because that's the only obstacle to them being compliant. Another example of crazy bureaucracy! G`day Marisa, The links we have posted are different..... They both originate from the same general website, But, the content is different, both are relevant and very likely to be of interest to a reader........ Your Link = https://directdocs.com.au/ozsmsfdocs.html#completeq My Link = https://directdocs.com.au/ozsmigrants.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, MaxV said: G`day Marisa, The links we have posted are different.... I know. I should say, this does not affect me at all, I just have an interest in pensions etc. Is there no option just to leave the pension in the UK and collect the income? I know the income will be taxed as normal income, but if there's a major cost to the initial transfer, is it possible they'd cancel each other out? Edited May 5, 2018 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Gbye grey sky said: This issue does not only affect Poms either. Any Ozzie who has spent time working in the UK and provided with a private pension by their employer (contributory or not) is also in this dilemma. I don't see why, really. I know you have to pay tax on the income, but if it's only a small amount, it's hardly worth the effort, surely? Just cop the tax, pay the money into a UK bank account so you can use it to fund your holidays. I'm sure it doesn't apply to you as you seem to have your head screwed on financially, but I do find some people's attitude to tax in retirement borders on the ridiculous. If it's going to cost you more to avoid the tax than to pay it, then for goodness sake just pay it! My friend's father still lives in a massive Sydney mansion. He hates it, because he can no longer walk down the many steps to the garden, or get up to his own bedroom. It's costing him a fortune to heat. But he won't move because if he did, he'd have to put the surplus money in the bank and "he'd have to pay tax on it". Never mind that he'd have about $3 million in cash and he'd be able to spend the rest of his life cruising the Mediterranean, even after tax. All that matters is not paying tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, Marisawright said: I posted the link a few minutes before you did. I don't think anyone has suggested the process is straightforward. It's just that under the new rules, you effectively have no choice but to wait until you're 55. The process should be simple, except that the British regulations insist on the "no access till you're 55" rule, which no standard Australian super fund can meet. It's stupid really - if you can't transfer the money until you're 55, why does it matter if the rules of the Australian super fund say you can access it before 55???? Surely they could make a rule that IF you transfer the pension AFTER you've reached 55, that restriction isn't necessary - then you'd have your choice of every superannuation fund in Australia, because that's the only obstacle to them being compliant. Another example of crazy bureaucracy! G`day Marisa, You said, "I don't think anyone has suggested the process is straightforward. It's just that under the new rules, you effectively have no choice but to wait until you're 55." I disagree, there are plenty of claims both amateur, semi-professional and professional, that sugggest/offer/recommend/promote so called straight-forward solutions, including pre 55yrs and post 55yrs criteria..... The difficulty is separating the genuine solutions/information from the bogus/false/misleading claims/scams/misinformation etc....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MaxV said: You said, "I don't think anyone has suggested the process is straightforward. It's just that under the new rules, you effectively have no choice but to wait until you're 55." I disagree, there are plenty of claims both amateur, semi-professional and professional, that sugggest/offer/recommend/promote so called straight-forward solutions, including pre 55yrs and post 55yrs criteria..... The difficulty is separating the genuine solutions/information from the bogus/false/misleading claims/scams/misinformation etc....... I don't think it's that difficult to separate them. Firstly, any advice published before 2015 is irrelevant because that's when the rules changed, so always check the date on any article or website - it's surprising how many people leave old advice published. Secondly, you can safely ignore anyone who says it's easy AND offers the solution if you pay them, because you know it's not easy, so they are clearly after your money. Every reputable source I've seen, says "wait till you're 55 because you'll lose too much doing it earlier". Given that, I'd ignore anyone who claims otherwise, particularly if they offer to do it for you (for a fee of course). To do otherwise is chasing rainbows. The bottom line is that you cannot transfer any kind of UK pension to a standard Australian superannuation fund. The only funds which can accept the transfer are either your own self managed super fund (SMSF), or the Expat fund previously mentioned. Personally, I can understand your reluctance to go with the privately-run Expat fund. They may be an excellent fund but it's simply impossible to be sure. If we can't trust investment giants like AMP with our savings, then how can we take such a small player on trust? So that pretty much leaves you with setting up your own SMSF. The Directdocs site gives you the wording you must use for the deed, as the standard wording would not be QROPS compliant. I do note that AFR article says most people use the SMSF as a temporary measure, and they then transfer the funds to a standard superannuation fund after the first ATO audit. Edited May 5, 2018 by Marisawright 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Marisawright said: I don't see why, really. I know you have to pay tax on the income, but if it's only a small amount, it's hardly worth the effort, surely? Just cop the tax, pay the money into a UK bank account so you can use it to fund your holidays. I'm sure it doesn't apply to you as you seem to have your head screwed on financially, but I do find some people's attitude to tax in retirement borders on the ridiculous. If it's going to cost you more to avoid the tax than to pay it, then for goodness sake just pay it! My friend's father still lives in a massive Sydney mansion. He hates it, because he can no longer walk down the many steps to the garden, or get up to his own bedroom. It's costing him a fortune to heat. But he won't move because if he did, he'd have to put the surplus money in the bank and "he'd have to pay tax on it". Never mind that he'd have about $3 million in cash and he'd be able to spend the rest of his life cruising the Mediterranean, even after tax. All that matters is not paying tax. It isn’t even just about paying tax. Managing a pension sitting in the UK is a pain and is being made harder. My provider will no longer transact with non-residents online and insists on letters or faxes. I get the distinct impression that they would rather I not be a customer. Who has a facsimile machine nowadays and post generally takes 2 weeks. Taking drawdowns on your pension is not straightforward to manage effectively and annuity policies are a very unattractive option. Having all your money accessible in the country where you are living is much easier for ordinary folk like us. Millionaires and billionnaires obviously benefit from offshoring money but it is nothing but a nuisance for people like us. The UK pension will mean that it is taxed by the UK of course. The income then is assessable in Australia whereupon you then offset the tax already paid in the UK and then pay any Oz tax - if applicable. This will undoubtedly require dealing with two separate tax jurisdictions for the rest of our lives and any future potentially detrimental changes they make. For example it is highly likely in the future that the UK will end the tax free allowances for non-residents therefore making every £ subject to tax which on a modest pension makes a big difference (about £5000 a year more tax on two pensions). We also are at the mercy of foreign exchange rate fluctuations in addition to having the separate state pension frozen which we knew about anyway when we came. It is certainly not about being able to pay for cruises. I doubt we will ever do one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marisawright Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Gbye grey sky said: It isn’t even just about paying tax.... It is certainly not about being able to pay for cruises. I doubt we will ever do one of those. I was replying to your comment about any Aussies who had ever worked in the UK, who would have relatively small amounts in a UK private pension. I know it's a nuisance to have money in more than one country. I sold my investment property in Australia before our move to the UK for that reason (though as it didn't work out, I'm now sorry I did!). Edited May 5, 2018 by Marisawright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 3 hours ago, MaxV said: G`day GG Sky, I too share your ability to continue travelling in ever increasing circles on this issue, I am sure there are many, many others on similar orbits to ourselves..... I quote "We have gone full circle now as a joint SMSF is looking more tenable given that we can ‘pool’ the two UK SiPPs into a single joint SMSF and benefit from some economies of scale." I have seen suggestions where SMSF, QROPS SMSF and SIPP`s are all being touted as potential vehicles that could be utilised in UK pension transfer to Aussie Super, it seems you guys already have UK SIPPS, have you considered tranferring your existing SIPPS directly across to Aussie Super thereby possibly avoiding the extra complexity of additional SMSF or QROPS SMSF..... I think you may misunderstand what a SiPP is or what it infers Max. We set up SiPPs when we were living in the UK. You cannot transfer UK SiPPs directly to an Aussie Super except for the solitary retail fund available - even if you are over 55. The UK tax authorities have created a surreal ‘Alice in Wonderland’ world in which you effectively cannot transfer your pension if you are under 55 solely because Super funds possess a facility whereby under certain circumstances you can access the pension before you reach 55 (this despite the fact that Super fund providers were prepared to ring-fence such transfers and make them subject to the UK rules)......... and you cannot transfer it when you are over 55 presumably on the grounds that they believe in Australia ageing works in reverse and you will someday become under 55. I can kind of see why the UK authorities want expats to keep their pension trapped in the UK but the reality is that they have allowed the SMSF ‘loophole’ to remain thereby obliging people to pay large chunks of their pension to 3rd parties for no logical purpose and then have to manage and audit a SMSF. My understanding is that the 10 year reporting requirement on QROPS transfers is precisely intended to prevent the early closing of the SMSF and transfer to a standard industry Super. The SMSF is therefore effectively for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gbye grey sky Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Marisawright said: I was replying to your comment about any Aussies who had ever worked in the UK, who would have relatively small amounts in a UK private pension. Fair enough but I know of a couple who worked in London for about 5 years and have about £30,000 each in private UK pensions. They are in their 30s now so must accept that their pension is split. I know it also works in reverse too as there is no facility for British citizens who have worked in Australia to transfer their Super funds to the UK and consolidate their pension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxV Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gbye grey sky said: I think you may misunderstand what a SiPP is or what it infers Max. We set up SiPPs when we were living in the UK. You cannot transfer UK SiPPs directly to an Aussie Super except for the solitary retail fund available - even if you are over 55. The UK tax authorities have created a surreal ‘Alice in Wonderland’ world in which you effectively cannot transfer your pension if you are under 55 solely because Super funds possess a facility whereby under certain circumstances you can access the pension before you reach 55 (this despite the fact that Super fund providers were prepared to ring-fence such transfers and make them subject to the UK rules)......... and you cannot transfer it when you are over 55 presumably on the grounds that they believe in Australia ageing works in reverse and you will someday become under 55. I can kind of see why the UK authorities want expats to keep their pension trapped in the UK but the reality is that they have allowed the SMSF ‘loophole’ to remain thereby obliging people to pay large chunks of their pension to 3rd parties for no logical purpose and then have to manage and audit a SMSF. My understanding is that the 10 year reporting requirement on QROPS transfers is precisely intended to prevent the early closing of the SMSF and transfer to a standard industry Super. The SMSF is therefore effectively for life. G`day GGrey Sky, This is what I said.... "I have seen suggestions where SMSF, QROPS SMSF and SIPP`s are all being touted as potential vehicles that could be utilised in UK pension transfer to Aussie Super, it seems you guys already have UK SIPPS, have you considered tranferring your existing SIPPS directly across to Aussie Super thereby possibly avoiding the extra complexity of additional SMSF or QROPS SMSF....." Certainly I do not pretend to understand the system compexities/practices to any great extent, it surely is a Dogs Breakfast at very best..... Perhaps I should have said "have you considered tranferring your existing SIPPS **directly or indirectly** across to Aussie Super thereby possibly avoiding the extra complexity of additional SMSF or QROPS SMSF....." I think often these systems are engineered to be as complex as humanly possible and so designed to put people off wanting/choosing to deal with them, this can be a very effective policy, for instance, several times I have been perfectly entitled to a financial claim/reward within government structures, once for around $40 which meant spending over 6 hours queueing, paperwork, interviews etc, (I walked out and enjoyed my day elsewhere), another time for $100 which took over 3yrs of dispute resolution with different people and departments including me paying for advice/support, (I just let it go as it was simply not financially worth investing the time, money, energy or effort)... Edited May 5, 2018 by MaxV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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