Parent Visa 804 or 864?

[evionthego]

Hi

I am in the process of moving my mother out to Australia from the UK. I am a perm resident and my sister is a citizen and we are her only children. My mother meets all of the criteria required for the 804 (non contributory parent visa) or 864 (contributory parent) visas. The question we have is which do we go for and we would appreciate any advice. As far as we can see, the only advantage the 864 has over the 804 is the visa process time and the fact that she will be a perm resident within @2 years (as opposed to 30 yrs+ with the 804). The visa cost is @$60,000 for the 864 and only $11,000 for the 804.

The only risk we can see is if the Government change any legislation or the visa requirements which mean that she would have to leave Australia. Now everything we find online pretty much indicates that even if they did this, it would only affect new applications and not current applications, so she would basically be safe to stay indefinitely in Australia regardless.

With visa processing waiting times of 30 yrs minimum for the 804, the reality is that she is unlikely to ever become a PR of Australia if we choose this visa due to her age (currently 68yrs old). 

Which brings us back to the cost of the visa - is the 864 worth $60,000? Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated.

[Quoll]

So how is she going to get into Australia? Is she going to lie to DIBP and say she’s going to be a tourist? Why not get the offshore CPV?

[VERYSTORMY]

First, there are other considerations if she applies on shore. Yes, she would get a bridging visa. However, the conditions of the tourist visa would apply for the duration of the bridging visa. This means she would be reliant on reciprocal health care. This is a very long way from Medicare. Personally I would not like to be elderly knowing I would have limited health care. There may also be financial aspects you would need to take financial advice on. 

With regard to future visa changes, the government have many times made very adverse changes. This time last year there was a visa category called Cat 5. These were skilled applicants on low priority. Many had been living in Oz for many years on bridging visas when out of the blue the government retrospectively cancelled the visa. 

Pat the moment the government have announced a big shake up of visas with a large reduction in visa categories. I would not be surprised to find the 804 is one. 

[ramot]

18 hours ago, evionthego said:

Hi

I am in the process of moving my mother out to Australia from the UK. I am a perm resident and my sister is a citizen and we are her only children. My mother meets all of the criteria required for the 804 (non contributory parent visa) or 864 (contributory parent) visas. The question we have is which do we go for and we would appreciate any advice. As far as we can see, the only advantage the 864 has over the 804 is the visa process time and the fact that she will be a perm resident within @2 years (as opposed to 30 yrs+ with the 804). The visa cost is @$60,000 for the 864 and only $11,000 for the 804.

The only risk we can see is if the Government change any legislation or the visa requirements which mean that she would have to leave Australia. Now everything we find online pretty much indicates that even if they did this, it would only affect new applications and not current applications, so she would basically be safe to stay indefinitely in Australia regardless.

With visa processing waiting times of 30 yrs minimum for the 804, the reality is that she is unlikely to ever become a PR of Australia if we choose this visa due to her age (currently 68yrs old). 

Which brings us back to the cost of the visa - is the 864 worth $60,000? Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated.

We are in a different position as we already live in Oz, but on a long term self funded temporary but renewable retirement visa, not available to new applicants.

We have decided to apply for the 864 now that we are eligible as basically I want the security of PR, my husband isn't as bothered,  and it seems to be taking 12/15 months to come through, so not too long to wait.

We accept the cost, as a contribution towards Medicare , we haven't contributed to taxes here, so although it would be lovely to get instant Medicare for nothing, we understand why we should pay.

I wouldn't consider the 804, I would hate the uncertainty and Although your mother is only 68? you cannot take good health for granted and I don't know how she would stand with Medicare cover should a serious health issue occur.

I am only a few years older, thought I was reasonably fit, but healthwise it hasn't been a good year, nothing hopefully too serious, but a slight very unexpected  heart hiccup, which if you were on visitors Medicare you would need to know if you were covered for instance. There have been cases of visitors told to return to their country for health treatment. Health insurance is pricey for visitors.

I see nothing wrong with a  parent coming for a long visit before deciding that they could live in Oz and then applying onshore, as that option is available, would be a mistake though to turn up with all your worldly goods!

 

[Misplaced]

 

Hi - we are in a similar position and considering the options. She may not like it and return to the UK but we are still looking at options.

 

My understanding for the 804 you would go on a Bridging Visa when the application is made. What I would like to know is do you go on one if you apply for the 864? The reason for asking is that if you don’t go on a bridging visa you would have to apply for the 884, which would increase the cost of getting the 864 by approx $5k.

 

If they decided to get rid of the 804 and you had already applied I am sure there would be other options to consider, such as the 864 or maybe a new one?

 

Would be interested to see which way to go and maybe we could compare notes via PM.

 

Cheers - Mis

[ramot]

Sorry can't help about a bridging visa when applying for the 864 visa. It doesn't apply to us, as we already live here and our visa doesn't need renewing till late 2020.

Edited December 18, 2017 by ramot

[MaggieMay24]

9 hours ago, Misplaced said:

My understanding for the 804 you would go on a Bridging Visa when the application is made. What I would like to know is do you go on one if you apply for the 864? The reason for asking is that if you don’t go on a bridging visa you would have to apply for the 884, which would increase the cost of getting the 864 by approx $5k.

If they decided to get rid of the 804 and you had already applied I am sure there would be other options to consider, such as the 864 or maybe a new one?

You don't go on the bridging visa when the application is made.  The bridging visa sits in the background as long as the existing visa (e.g. visitor) is in effect.  When the existing visa expires, then the bridging visa takes effect.

There are often visas that you cannot apply for while onshore on a bridging visa so if someone ever faced themselves in this position, I'd strongly suggest they speak with a migration agent to assess their options.

[Misplaced]

Hi
I am in the process of moving my mother out to Australia from the UK. I am a perm resident and my sister is a citizen and we are her only children. My mother meets all of the criteria required for the 804 (non contributory parent visa) or 864 (contributory parent) visas. The question we have is which do we go for and we would appreciate any advice. As far as we can see, the only advantage the 864 has over the 804 is the visa process time and the fact that she will be a perm resident within @2 years (as opposed to 30 yrs+ with the 804). The visa cost is @$60,000 for the 864 and only $11,000 for the 804.
The only risk we can see is if the Government change any legislation or the visa requirements which mean that she would have to leave Australia. Now everything we find online pretty much indicates that even if they did this, it would only affect new applications and not current applications, so she would basically be safe to stay indefinitely in Australia regardless.
With visa processing waiting times of 30 yrs minimum for the 804, the reality is that she is unlikely to ever become a PR of Australia if we choose this visa due to her age (currently 68yrs old). 
Which brings us back to the cost of the visa - is the 864 worth $60,000? Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated.

Hi - I have sent you a PM

[DVW]

On ‎18‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 23:09, Misplaced said:

 

Hi - we are in a similar position and considering the options. She may not like it and return to the UK but we are still looking at options.

 

My understanding for the 804 you would go on a Bridging Visa when the application is made. What I would like to know is do you go on one if you apply for the 864? The reason for asking is that if you don’t go on a bridging visa you would have to apply for the 884, which would increase the cost of getting the 864 by approx $5k.

 

If they decided to get rid of the 804 and you had already applied I am sure there would be other options to consider, such as the 864 or maybe a new one?

 

Would be interested to see which way to go and maybe we could compare notes via PM.

 

Cheers - Mis

Your mother would be issued with a BVA as soon as she applies for a 864, so she can wait in Oz.  But she would have to apply and pay for a BVB is she wants to travel abroad and return. 

[billynomates]

On 18/11/2017 at 23:28, evionthego said:

...she will be a perm resident within @2 years (as opposed to 30 yrs+ with the 804)....

I'm not sure those figures are correct - I thought (sorry not done an internet trawl lately) that the 804 was up to 30 years (still not great of course), but maybe as "little" as 6 years?

[N1cn@c65]

Hi there - I’m in the same situation with the 804 vs the 864 and was curious to know which way you went and why

Thanks.

 

[BMikeW]

Hi. Initial advice from a migration agents suggests my wife and I are suitable to be granted an 864 Aged Parent Visa (in time of course).

I'm seeking guidance please about when to sell my UK property. I was hoping to apply for the 864 visa and then get Bridging Visa B allowing me to return to the UK to sell the property. 

Anyone have any experience or thoughts on this?

Thanks, Mike

 

  

 

[Marisawright]

6 hours ago, BMikeW said:

Hi. Initial advice from a migration agents suggests my wife and I are suitable to be granted an 864 Aged Parent Visa (in time of course).

I'm seeking guidance please about when to sell my UK property. I was hoping to apply for the 864 visa and then get Bridging Visa B allowing me to return to the UK to sell the property. 

Anyone have any experience or thoughts on this?

First, ask the agent to explain why the 864 is better than the 804.   If you apply today, you will be waiting at least 15 years for your 864 visa.  If you are still fairly young, then that may still be worth it.  However, consider that you'll need to pass a medical at that point, and if you fail that, you'll have to go home.  What age will you be, how confident are you that you'd pass the medical at that age, and how would you feel having to set up from scratch again in the UK at that age?   Whereas if you go for the 804, you'll die before the visa is granted so you'll never have to face the second medical (the first one is a few years after application).

Make sure you are aware of the downsides of living on a bridging visa, e.g.

• You'll need permission from FIRB to buy a home and they'll hit you with a hefty surcharge on the purchase.
• If you were legally resident in the UK before you came to Australia, you'll get reciprocal Medicare which is good enough for most things, however you're not eligible for pensioner pricing on prescriptions, or any aged care benefits/support -- so you need to consider how that will affect your children, who may have to care for you, as well as yourself. 

There's no good or bad time to sell your UK property.  You'll have to wait until your bridging visa kicks in (that's at the end of your tourist visa), then you can apply for a BVB and you should have no trouble getting one since you have a specific reason for travel.  The snag is you have to give a definite date of return and you must return by that date or lose your right to enter Australia.  The other option is to go home, sell your property and get yourself organised at your leisure, then return to Australia on a new tourist visa and apply for your parent visa then.   If you're going to die before it's granted regardless, then there's no need to rush to apply.  

 

[ramot]

28 minutes ago, Marisawright said:

First, ask the agent to explain why the 864 is better than the 804.   If you apply today, you will be waiting at least 15 years for your 864 visa.  If you are still fairly young, then that may still be worth it.  However, consider that you'll need to pass a medical at that point, and if you fail that, you'll have to go home.  What age will you be, how confident are you that you'd pass the medical at that age, and how would you feel having to set up from scratch again in the UK at that age?   Whereas if you go for the 804, you'll die before the visa is granted so you'll never have to face the second medical (the first one is a few years after application).

Make sure you are aware of the downsides of living on a bridging visa, e.g.

• You'll need permission from FIRB to buy a home and they'll hit you with a hefty surcharge on the purchase.
• If you were legally resident in the UK before you came to Australia, you'll get reciprocal Medicare which is good enough for most things, however you're not eligible for pensioner pricing on prescriptions, or any aged care benefits/support -- so you need to consider how that will affect your children, who may have to care for you, as well as yourself. 

There's no good or bad time to sell your UK property.  You'll have to wait until your bridging visa kicks in (that's at the end of your tourist visa), then you can apply for a BVB and you should have no trouble getting one since you have a specific reason for travel.  The snag is you have to give a definite date of return and you must return by that date or lose your right to enter Australia.  The other option is to go home, sell your property and get yourself organised at your leisure, then return to Australia on a new tourist visa and apply for your parent visa then.   If you're going to die before it's granted regardless, then there's no need to rush to apply.  

 

 

You don’t have to be in UK to sell a property, it’s completely doable from Australia.  Be warned The time frame for completion on a house sale is ridiculously long in England, we are into the 6th month from date of sale agreed, to going complete this week. It’s a 1 bed flat, no mortgage, no chain, the solicitors are a slow motion joke, it’s an absolute nonsense. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by ramot

[Alan Collett]

5 hours ago, Marisawright said:

First, ask the agent to explain why the 864 is better than the 804.   If you apply today, you will be waiting at least 15 years for your 864 visa.  If you are still fairly young, then that may still be worth it.  However, consider that you'll need to pass a medical at that point, and if you fail that, you'll have to go home.  What age will you be, how confident are you that you'd pass the medical at that age, and how would you feel having to set up from scratch again in the UK at that age?   Whereas if you go for the 804, you'll die before the visa is granted so you'll never have to face the second medical (the first one is a few years after application).

<snip>

 

Those who have applied for an onshore visa under subclass 804 or 864 and who fail to meet the health requirement can reasonably expect to be able to stay in Australia via a subclass 602 Medical Treatment visa ...

Best regards.

[Alan Collett]

5 hours ago, ramot said:

 

You don’t have to be in UK to sell a property, it’s completely doable from Australia.  Be warned The time frame for completion on a house sale is ridiculously long in England, we are into the 6th month from date of sale agreed, to going complete this week. It’s a 1 bed flat, no mortgage, no chain, the solicitors are a slow motion joke, it’s an absolute nonsense. 

Yes, with a Power of Attorney signed in favour of the solicitor documents pertaining to the sale of the property can be signed in your absence.

Check also whether there's a need to file a Non Resident CGT return with HMRC within 60 days of completion: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/capital-gains-tax-for-non-residents-uk-residential-property#overview

Best regards.

[LindaH27]

6 hours ago, Marisawright said:

First, ask the agent to explain why the 864 is better than the 804.   If you apply today, you will be waiting at least 15 years for your 864 visa.  If you are still fairly young, then that may still be worth it.  However, consider that you'll need to pass a medical at that point, and if you fail that, you'll have to go home.  What age will you be, how confident are you that you'd pass the medical at that age, and how would you feel having to set up from scratch again in the UK at that age?   Whereas if you go for the 804, you'll die before the visa is granted so you'll never have to face the second medical (the first one is a few years after application).

Make sure you are aware of the downsides of living on a bridging visa, e.g.

• You'll need permission from FIRB to buy a home and they'll hit you with a hefty surcharge on the purchase.
• If you were legally resident in the UK before you came to Australia, you'll get reciprocal Medicare which is good enough for most things, however you're not eligible for pensioner pricing on prescriptions, or any aged care benefits/support -- so you need to consider how that will affect your children, who may have to care for you, as well as yourself. 

There's no good or bad time to sell your UK property.  You'll have to wait until your bridging visa kicks in (that's at the end of your tourist visa), then you can apply for a BVB and you should have no trouble getting one since you have a specific reason for travel.  The snag is you have to give a definite date of return and you must return by that date or lose your right to enter Australia.  The other option is to go home, sell your property and get yourself organised at your leisure, then return to Australia on a new tourist visa and apply for your parent visa then.   If you're going to die before it's granted regardless, then there's no need to rush to apply.  

 

804 could possibly be discontinued at some point given it costs Australia taxpayers a lot of money so perhaps that’s why the agent recommended 864 instead of suggesting going for 804. Some visas in the  past have been discontinued retrospectively 

Edited August 10, 2022 by LindaH27

[Alan Collett]

5 minutes ago, LindaH27 said:

804 could possibly be discontinued at some point given it costs Australia taxpayers a lot of money so perhaps that’s why the agent recommended 864 instead of suggesting going for 804. Some visas in the  past have been discontinued retrospectively 

In my view there's not a one size fits all response to this question.

There are clearly benefits of having permanent residency - but it comes at a cost. 

Personally I think the 804 visa pathway is likely to close as an avenue for new applicants - 360,000 people in Australia on Bridging Visas at the last count (and increasing) is clearly not sustainable and brings the system into disrepute.

Best regards.

 

[ramot]

4 hours ago, Alan Collett said:

Yes, with a Power of Attorney signed in favour of the solicitor documents pertaining to the sale of the property can be signed in your absence.

Check also whether there's a need to file a Non Resident CGT return with HMRC within 60 days of completion: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/capital-gains-tax-for-non-residents-uk-residential-property#overview

Best regards.

Thanks Alan non resident CGT organised, but it’s important to be aware of the need

[BMikeW]

13 hours ago, Marisawright said:

First, ask the agent to explain why the 864 is better than the 804.   If you apply today, you will be waiting at least 15 years for your 864 visa.  If you are still fairly young, then that may still be worth it.  However, consider that you'll need to pass a medical at that point, and if you fail that, you'll have to go home.  What age will you be, how confident are you that you'd pass the medical at that age, and how would you feel having to set up from scratch again in the UK at that age?   Whereas if you go for the 804, you'll die before the visa is granted so you'll never have to face the second medical (the first one is a few years after application).

Make sure you are aware of the downsides of living on a bridging visa, e.g.

• You'll need permission from FIRB to buy a home and they'll hit you with a hefty surcharge on the purchase.
• If you were legally resident in the UK before you came to Australia, you'll get reciprocal Medicare which is good enough for most things, however you're not eligible for pensioner pricing on prescriptions, or any aged care benefits/support -- so you need to consider how that will affect your children, who may have to care for you, as well as yourself. 

There's no good or bad time to sell your UK property.  You'll have to wait until your bridging visa kicks in (that's at the end of your tourist visa), then you can apply for a BVB and you should have no trouble getting one since you have a specific reason for travel.  The snag is you have to give a definite date of return and you must return by that date or lose your right to enter Australia.  The other option is to go home, sell your property and get yourself organised at your leisure, then return to Australia on a new tourist visa and apply for your parent visa then.   If you're going to die before it's granted regardless, then there's no need to rush to apply.  

 

Thanks for the straight talk.

I was surprised to read 15 years to granting an 864 visa. I appreciate that the wait is varied but thought it was more 5 or 6 years.

 

 

[LindaH27]

21 minutes ago, BMikeW said:

Thanks for the straight talk.

I was surprised to read 15 years to granting an 864 visa. I appreciate that the wait is varied but thought it was more 5 or 6 years.

 

 

It’s because it’s in the same queue as 173,143 and 884 - all contributory visas. Also it was being wrongly processed earlier than the others (sometimes within a few Months!)  so now immi have put a hold on all 864 lodged before June 2017 until the others catch up with that date. It’s presently asking September 2016 applicants for further docs to start the processing . It’s moved quite quickly in the last few months but will stall once it reaches May/ June 2017 applicants because  9000 applied just in those two months  - at current annual quota that could take 2 years just to get through those two months alone.

There are already approximately 75k waiting in the queue so the wait time will only get longer unless the govt increase the quota and possibly stop the 804. It’s a possibility they may also look at 864 as people have complained that it’s very discriminatory to allow aged parents on that visa to wait onshore on a bridging visa when it makes aged parents on 143 wait offshore. Many weren't aged when they first applied or weren’t in a position to leave their respective  countries at that time for various reasons so applied for 143 on the premise  of a fairly quick result. It could actually take 18 plus years for grant if quotas don’t increase drastically. - and you’d still have to pass the medical at the end..If one fails all fail.   That’s a long time to be living on a temporary visa and facing all the extra costs eg for property. You need permission from FIRB to buy and they’ve just  doubled  the cost of that permission to a  starting figure of around $13500 plus each state charge an extra amount of stamp duty on top of the usual - NSW is an extra 7%! 
On a temporary visa they’re no entitlements to benefits or extra pensioner concessions. Reciprocal health doesn’t cover optical, dentists, ambulance etc so would need extra cover which is expensive and can only increase. Basically onshore visas need deep pockets for the future  

Edited August 10, 2022 by LindaH27

[Marisawright]

3 hours ago, BMikeW said:

Thanks for the straight talk.

I was surprised to read 15 years to granting an 864 visa. I appreciate that the wait is varied but thought it was more 5 or 6 years.

 

 

No, they were being processed faster in error at one point