simmo Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Terrible scenes http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/screaming-people-trapped-as-fire-engulfs-24storey-tower-block-in-notting-hill-a3564526.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 "a number of fatalities" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amibovered Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Bloody death-traps, time to get rid of them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) Why were no fire alarms or sprinklers fitted when the building was updated? Awful tragedy for those poor souls living there. Edited June 14, 2017 by Toots 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 My immediate reaction is that looking at the pictures is that in some way the new cladding which was installed as a planning pay off to get a academy school built adjacent to the tower was either installed without fire breaks within the cladding at each floor or, and I hope to god this is not the case, the materials used for the cladding and insulation did not have the required fire/flame resistance, or someone switched materials and used cheaper ones. An absolute disaster, built to low standards initially, maintained badly, lack of properly qualified staff to supervise renovations and manage maintenace, lack of money to upgrade to modern day standards, occupation completely unmonitored , a disaster just waiting to happen in so many ways, extremely glad it's not in a borough that I worked in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 my god this is absolutely shocking! cannot believe that this can happen in London in 2017. Getting sick to the back teeth of the bloody news coverage just going over the same things again and again and asking the survivors the most ridiculous questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 The fire crews are helpless......they dont even have hoses or ladders long enough or a means to get higher than the 7th or 8th floor with their water.....surly there has to be another way of trying to fight the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Toots said: Why were no fire alarms or sprinklers fitted when the building was updated? Awful tragedy for those poor souls living there. On new builds fire suppressant systems would have been installed but at this was a regen project I understand that unless there is a "change of use" there is no requirement to retro fit them. I'm not sure about risers. A building this high now would require "wet risers" but not sure if they where installed in this block. It looked like the fire took hold on the external cladding so not sure how effective they would have been. The builder (Rydon) who undertook the cladding sweating right now. Also designers. The problem is in regards to building control is that this type of work is bespoke so the guidance on installing fire stops on this particular scheme would have been very general. There will be a lot of consultants checking their PI this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 21 minutes ago, kungfustu said: The fire crews are helpless......they dont even have hoses or ladders long enough or a means to get higher than the 7th or 8th floor with their water.....surly there has to be another way of trying to fight the fire. On high/medium rise block there should be dry/wet risers in the stair cores. This one is unusual because the fire went from the outside- in so harder to fight. I wonder what the fire strategy was for this building.. normally for flats it is "stay put". Fires are expected to spread along corridors which are sealed (cells) with fire doors to stop the spread. Here "stay put" would have put people in peril. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungfustu Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 listening to some members of the Residents Association on BBC.....they claim to have been complaining about safety issues for some time.....fire escapes.....lighting in case of fire etc etc.....a petition was signed by 90% of the blocks residence and handed to the local authority who read it and then dismissed it out of hand.....this is serious sh#t....I think there will be a lot of people within the local authority and private companies paid to do the renovations checking the PI. The stay put advise has to be reviewed.....that is crazy....especially as the fire crews hoses only reach the 12th floor! WTF happens to those above? Stay put! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, kungfustu said: The stay put advise has to be reviewed.....that is crazy....especially as the fire crews hoses only reach the 12th floor! WTF happens to those above? Stay put! The intention is that the fire crews bring hose reels that attach to fitting in the stair cores. those fire fighters .. the bravery!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyboy Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Terrible! I was listening on 5live on the way to work this morning and was just shocking. Nobody knows how they were given permission to insulate the building with those panels prone to fire. There are also rumors about gas pipe being installed without proper permission. The people were told to stay inside in case of a fire as the building is fireproof but when the fire brigade arrived, they were rushing everyone to get out of the building as quick as possible. The interviews on the radio were heart moving... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Sad situation, but have to agree with @kungfustu the media coverage especially CNN down this way is portraying it like the new 9/11. Just hope the families with losses find some consolation from the massive pay outs london inner city borough councils will need to pay out. A resident who was the flats housing committee bloke said it had been raised many times over the safety issues, but always fell on deaf ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toots Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 1 hour ago, simmo said: On new builds fire suppressant systems would have been installed but at this was a regen project I understand that unless there is a "change of use" there is no requirement to retro fit them. I'm not sure about risers. A building this high now would require "wet risers" but not sure if they where installed in this block. It looked like the fire took hold on the external cladding so not sure how effective they would have been. The builder (Rydon) who undertook the cladding sweating right now. Also designers. The problem is in regards to building control is that this type of work is bespoke so the guidance on installing fire stops on this particular scheme would have been very general. There will be a lot of consultants checking their PI this morning. I bet they will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 The fire protection is based around the following The block has a a steel 6 inch pipe rising up thro the middle of the block, which in the case of a 24 storey block is full of water, st each floor level their are outlets to which the brigade connect their hoses, at the bottom the brigade fix their pumps and pressurise the riser and that then gives the brigade fire fighting pressure to their hoses on n the floor where the fire is. The design of the blocks is that each dwelling is compartmentalised by structural walls which give minimum 2 hour fire containment and and all entrance doors and frames are minimum 1 hour fire resistance with further internal doors to kitchen 0.5 hour fire resistance, there is then further compartmentalisation on external corridors with fire doors to make corridor lengths no more than 45 feet and at all entry and exit points from staircases and lift hallways, coatings such as paint and floor coverings must resist ignition for a specified time. This design is to ensure the brigade have time to attend , pressurise the riser, take control of the lifts with their key and get men and hoses to the floor where the fire is, the time for them to do this used to be, I believe, was around 10 mins. The advice to tenants was to vacate your flat if you had a fire and close your front door behind you and for others to stay put until the brigade attended. Problems.that I experienced back in the early 2000's Occupiers without good english Sales of properties and people being crammed into let properties after being sold Properties outside the control of the council replacing doors and frames with non fire resitant doors and no one realising it. People even using bottled gas stoves People wedging open corridor fire doors People decorating external walls with ordinary paints without permission People thieving brass and phosphor bronze parts off the fire riser and making it inoperable People running businesses from their flats, repairing motor cycles and running street food carts from them and photocopying etc etc, these kinds of businesses involve petrol, cooking oils , commercial freezers, stacks of paper etc So although the standards they were built to were low whilst they were managed and used in the way they were intended they were relatively safe, not pleasent to live in but safe. Adding cladding externally to improve thermal insulation and deal with rain penetration has been popular for 30 years and was intially handled by specialist structural engineers and relied mostly on aluminium sheeting and glass fibre it has in recent times been done by firms selling a complete package with limited oversight and utilising composite materials often with a thin covering of metal on the face and utilising a whole range of insulation materials which should be stamped with a approved fire rating certificate. It can be difficult to test these materials as the govt over 20 years ago ceased to fund the Building Research Station which actually tested and certified many of these materials and design concepts and advised designers and manufacturer's, it's demise was as result of the relentless demand by industry for the cutting of red tape 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Another issue that will be relevant is how quickly the brigade attended and whether cuts in stations and manpower have had an effect on their capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight7 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Horrific. Have they found out what caused it yet? Why are they building this high off the ground? it would be hard to get ladders up there for people to escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I am worried Isis are watching. They seem to copy events like this as low tech terror. Wouldn't be hard to replicate. And no suicide necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 11 minutes ago, starlight7 said: Horrific. Have they found out what caused it yet? Why are they building this high off the ground? it would be hard to get ladders up there for people to escape. Faulty fridge freezer according to sky news? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lever40 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 40 minutes ago, BacktoDemocracy said: Another issue that will be relevant is how quickly the brigade attended and whether cuts in stations and manpower have had an effect on their capability. First fire fighters where on scene within 6 mins. It went from the 2nd floor to the top floor in 15mins but apparently started in the 4th like @Sunset said above a fridge was the cause 25 minutes ago, Sunset said: Faulty fridge freezer according to sky news? Id heard this this morning, a guy being interview said it was someones fridge on the fourth floor blew up 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 1 hour ago, BacktoDemocracy said: Another issue that will be relevant is how quickly the brigade attended and whether cuts in stations and manpower have had an effect on their capability. One commentator has already pointed the finger at Boris for the station cuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottieGirl Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, Johndoe said: One commentator has already pointed the finger at Boris for the station cuts Cheap political point scoring by the commentator and inappropriate when initial reports indicate the first fieries were there in minutes with 40 engines in total. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johndoe Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Sunset said: Faulty fridge freezer according to sky news? Some news outlets have got it wrong. I saw and heard the guy (live) who's comments have led to misrepresentation on the fridge question as all all he said was that concerns were raised a few weeks earlier as someone on his floor (the 4th) had a small fire which had resulted from a power surge to the building. It wasn't even the same high rise that he was talking about but the adjacent one. If there are other sources that can confirm that a faulty fridge, on the 4th floor, caused the current disaster, then it's a highly improbable coincidence (same floor, similar appliance) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmo Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 9 minutes ago, Johndoe said: One commentator has already pointed the finger at Boris for the station cuts They where on site in 6 minutes. Unbelievable how soon this was turned into a political football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lever40 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 18 minutes ago, Johndoe said: Some news outlets have got it wrong. I saw and heard the guy (live) who's comments have led to misrepresentation on the fridge question as all all he said was that concerns were raised a few weeks earlier as someone on his floor (the 4th) had a small fire which had resulted from a power surge to the building. It wasn't even the same high rise that he was talking about but the adjacent one. If there are other sources that can confirm that a faulty fridge, on the 4th floor, caused the current disaster, then it's a highly improbable coincidence (same floor, similar appliance) This the same dude that was interviewed by bbc at about 8am (uk time ) ? Had his young step daughter and gf ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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