On the precipice!

[BadgerLady]

Hi all,

I came here on a working holiday visa in 2012, which was then replaced by a 457 (occupation since removed), and I applied for my 186 TRT in January. So there's a good chance I'm within a few months now of finally getting PR 

However, yesterday I had a call about my DREAM JOB - something that's a step up but is also a genuine representation of all my passions rolled up into a very rare opportunity, something you see pop up a couple of times a decade anywhere in the world. It's in Helsinki, Finland, and they seem really interested, but are looking for the successful candidate to start by August.

I would give up PR for the job (it's that good), but it's a huge thing to do - I might never, ever have the opportunity to settle in Australia again.

Timing is so tight!

Of course I might not get the job. And I might not get PR. But I just had to tell someone 

[kevsan]

er, congrats? any indication of timelines for 186? Could you have your cake and eat it?

[BadgerLady]

The only indication I have is that I've been hearing other people in the company who applied end of November were granted this week. That suggests I have two months to go... though of course there's no guarantee...

[Guest263228]

If it's such a 'dream job' it should be done and dusted then. Not sure why PR should pose an issue under such circumstances. A five year span of time hardly bad, coming as a back packer or at least on a WHV.

Just prepare yourself for the long and very cold Finnish winters if by chance you happened upon such a job.

[MARYROSE02]

 

As a long-term procrastinator and ditherer I'm not very good at proffering advice but you could try to think of it as choosing between two "right" decisions rather than one "right" and one "wrong", and once you choose forget about the other one. The last time I had to make a similar choice was when I turned 60 and Royal Mail gave me a choice of how I was paid my pension - lump sum and reduced pension, or no lump sum and maximum pension. It took me three months to make a decision after endless Google searches for pension advice and asking friends.

From another perspective what about other aspects of your life apart from work? I mean friends, relationships, time invested in adapting to life in OZ. Does your job consume so much of your life that you can just walk away from everything else? Is it a good thing to be able to do that? One of my brothers can do that and I've seen him do it a number of times. He's living with me at the moment whilst he is working a contract in Sydney, and he'll be with me for six months, perhaps more, but the day he leaves the job will quite likely be the day he leaves Australia without a backward glance or a sliver of regret. Within a couple of weeks he will have established himself again with pub/cafe/friends and he will carry on there until he wants to move again.

I always thought in terms of emigrating to Australia from England, not the other way around but when I went back for what turned out to be 12 years in England I realized I'd gone through the emigration process a second time. I doubt I was the first to confuse holidays, usually in high summer in England with actually "living" and "working" there. Then when I came back to Sydney I went through the emigration process a third time.

Decades ago, I came across some advice, probably in Woman's Realm or People's Friend (My Nana used to get them) which was to divide your life up into a sort of cake with equal portions containting the important aspects - 25 per cent to family, 25 per cent to friends, 25 per cent to relationship, 25 per cent to work, for example. Then, if you were lacking in any part of your life, relationships in this case (it was a women's magazine) then 75 per cent of your life was still good. But if you turned the relationship part into, say, 90 per cent, then it created an unhealthy imbalance which demeaned the positive parts of your life.

Starting work again, after 20 months of "retirement" and enrolling with the Open University has certain restored the balance of my own life although the "relationship" portion is perhaps an unhealhty 0 per cent!

[evets]

If this is your dream job, could you find anything in Australia to match it. If not, move! If you are unsure about the lifestyle change, weigh up the pros and cons, Scandinavia does comes out well. Cannot comment on Finland though , be prepared for shitty winters compared to Australia. But they deal with them so much better!

Ultimately dream job or not so dream job and still have a job

[BadgerLady]

2 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

If it's such a 'dream job' it should be done and dusted then. Not sure why PR should pose an issue under such circumstances. A five year span of time hardly bad, coming as a back packer or at least on a WHV.

I'm a bit too old for all that 

59 minutes ago, MARYROSE02 said:

From another perspective what about other aspects of your life apart from work? I mean friends, relationships, time invested in adapting to life in OZ. Does your job consume so much of your life that you can just walk away from everything else? Is it a good thing to be able to do that?

Sadly, yes! I have no family members here and no close friends (although lots of lovely acquaintances / remote friends). No pets or club memberships, not even a gym pass. I travel from project to project across the country, and am currently homeless with all my 'stuff' in a storage unit in Padstow.

I could get on a flight on Monday.

The only regrets would be later in life, if I were to come back to Australia for retirement... I've always thought that I would build a little house in a sunny spot in the country, just because I enjoy the climate and the landscape here. But with no family members in Australia, that route would likely be closed if I left without PR now.

Edited May 17, 2017 by BadgerLady

[MARYROSE02]

That is a difficult one and I go back to my "Two right decisions" point. When I made my decision to take the maximum, indexed pension, I was haunted for a while with the thought 'You turned down 26 000 quid in the hand' and I know that many people take the money and spend it, but I wanted maximum income. I made the same decision 21 years ago when I was made redundant opting for an immediate pension which has now paid out for 21 years.

I suppose you could still buy that house in OZ and spend your northern winters here or for that matter rent a house for six months and do it. I did think once of going back to The New Forest for every summer but now I'd rather stay here. I know a German lady who would rather live here permanently but in the meantime she has to settle for half a year here

What about if you were offered the job and then you explained your situation here awaiting PR. Might they understand and give you the job later? Is that a naive question perhaps because no employer is going to do that kind of thing for you, which perhaps leads to another question (begs the question? I'm not sure if that is right,) What employer is worth that kind of investment on your part? They will get rid of you if it suits them. Is it healthy to tie up so much of your life in your job? I'm not judging you here. I'm so glad it was offered a new job as it has made a huge difference to my life both psychologically and financially but I don't want to work more than part time 25 hours a week.

If you are like my brother and can "get on a flight on Monday" then there's no problem. You've made the right decision (but, after five years here Australia might have got into your system especially as you appear to like it here? Plenty of people who are unhappy in OZ go back "home" and regret it when they realize they liked it in OZ after all.

 

[Guest263228]

29 minutes ago, BadgerLady said:

I'm a bit too old for all that 

Sadly, yes! I have no family members here and no close friends (although lots of lovely acquaintances / remote friends). No pets or club memberships, not even a gym pass. I travel from project to project across the country, and am currently homeless with all my 'stuff' in a storage unit in Padstow.

I could get on a flight on Monday.

The only regrets would be later in life, if I were to come back to Australia for retirement... I've always thought that I would build a little house in a sunny spot in the country, just because I enjoy the climate and the landscape here. But with no family members in Australia, that route would likely be closed if I left without PR now.

My understanding from reading you is that you arrived here 2012 on a WHV. (hence back packer) I was not referring returning as such sometime in the future. If this 'dream' job does prevail, why would you bother with PR? There are many places in the world to retire at some future date easier than Australia.

If my 'dream' job was on offer, there would be no second thoughts. I don't what you have to lose vacating Australia.

[Quoll]

Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans! We've always been inclined to take the best opportunity of the moment and, for the most part, it has worked out well (being stuck in Australia for a while there wasn't good for me though). If you land the dream job then go for it! Australia will still be there for visits!

[BadgerLady]

45 minutes ago, Quoll said:

 If you land the dream job then go for it! Australia will still be there for visits!

I suppose that's true! It's not like I'd be banished - there are always tourist visas...

1 hour ago, MARYROSE02 said:

What about if you were offered the job and then you explained your situation here awaiting PR. Might they understand and give you the job later?

Well that would be perfect. And it's not impossible - candidates like me are pretty rare too so, if we do fall in 'work love' with one another, they just might wait. Then of course DIBP would drag their heels and the PR would never come through haha 

It's true that my whole life does revolve around my job, but I'm lucky to have found something genuinely fulfilling. I get to see the world, constantly learn new things and be creative, and that's real living to me... the 'dream job' takes it a step further by focusing on health issues in the developing world, so I can genuinely feel that I'm making a positive difference, as well as being a senior management role that feels like 'the destination' in terms of control and influence.

[ScottieGirl]

PR is not exactly permanent as you probably know. You have to live in Aus for specified periods, you can't just up and go and return years later to retire. You need to be a citizen to do that. From your posts I assume you are not that close to retirement .

So if you get the job you have the option of staying in Aus long-term or upping sticks to sunny Finland. At least at this time of the year there is a lot of sun. ☺ Given your unconventional lifestyle I think we both know what you will choose.

Good luck!

[MaggieMay24]

Keep in mind that the 186 requires you to state your intention to remain with your sponsoring employer.  It's not a condition of the visa, but if you up and quit the moment you get it your employer could be motivated to notify DIBP and they may feel you haven't met this criteria, therefore cancelling the visa.

[jess6]

@ScottieGirl is right - obtaining PR will not get you back to Australian in 20+ years. PR is not permanent, it is a 5 years visa. If you do not come back within these 5 years, you will lose it. If you were about to get your Citizenship, that'd be different.

If your career is the most important thing in your life, then go for it.

There are plenty of sunny places in Europe where you will be able to afford a nice little place and retire later. I know a Finnish woman who moved to Spain with her daughter. She is super happy. I also have two French friends who built their life in Barcelona and love it.

[BadgerLady]

11 hours ago, MaggieMay24 said:

Keep in mind that the 186 requires you to state your intention to remain with your sponsoring employer.  It's not a condition of the visa, but if you up and quit the moment you get it your employer could be motivated to notify DIBP and they may feel you haven't met this criteria, therefore cancelling the visa.

Yeah, I know it's technically a risk but not one I'm worried about. My employer charged me for the sponsorship - over $9,000 - and has 400,000 employees worldwide with HR outsourced to China. No way they'd pay that much attention to one person who kinda maybe sorta stretched the rules a bit without costing them anything.

 

3 hours ago, jess6 said:

@ScottieGirl is right - obtaining PR will not get you back to Australian in 20+ years. PR is not permanent, it is a 5 years visa. If you do not come back within these 5 years, you will lose it. 

But I can always come back for holidays, right? Keep it going that way..?

[jess6]

2 hours ago, BadgerLady said:

Yeah, I know it's technically a risk but not one I'm worried about. My employer charged me for the sponsorship - over $9,000 - and has 400,000 employees worldwide with HR outsourced to China. No way they'd pay that much attention to one person who kinda maybe sorta stretched the rules a bit without costing them anything.

 

But I can always come back for holidays, right? Keep it going that way..?

What do you mean you employer charged you for the sponsorship? Your employer is not allowed to charge you for the nomination.

My employer paid for the nomination and also for a large chunk of my application.

Also, when you apply, you give your word to the Australian government that you want to remain 2 years with your employer. If you do not intend to do that, you are doing a false declaration to the Australian government.

I have no idea if coming back for holidays will maintain your PR, I would think that the only way to retain PR would be to have your main residence in Australia but I might be wrong. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by jess6

[BadgerLady]

7 hours ago, jess6 said:

What do you mean you employer charged you for the sponsorship? Your employer is not allowed to charge you for the nomination.

They kept me down a grade (while charging my clients a higher day rate), and their policies state that they will only financially support employees on the higher grade. In my case they were willing to provide nomination for the 186 but only if I covered their administration costs and used my own funds to pay for their chosen immigration lawyer.

I'll finally be getting my 'promotion' next week, now that they've successfully avoided that cost.

7 hours ago, jess6 said:

Also, when you apply, you give your word to the Australian government that you want to remain 2 years with your employer. If you do not intend to do that, you are doing a false declaration to the Australian government.

I did intend to do that when I made the declaration. I wasn't looking for this job - it just popped up this week, months after the application was lodged.

[MaggieMay24]

9 hours ago, jess6 said:

What do you mean you employer charged you for the sponsorship? Your employer is not allowed to charge you for the nomination.

My employer paid for the nomination and also for a large chunk of my application.

The employer must pay the nomination for the 457, but there's nothing saying that the employer needs to cover any of the cost for the 186.

[MARYROSE02]

18 hours ago, jess6 said:

@ScottieGirl is right - obtaining PR will not get you back to Australian in 20+ years. PR is not permanent, it is a 5 years visa. If you do not come back within these 5 years, you will lose it. If you were about to get your Citizenship, that'd be different.

If your career is the most important thing in your life, then go for it.

There are plenty of sunny places in Europe where you will be able to afford a nice little place and retire later. I know a Finnish woman who moved to Spain with her daughter. She is super happy. I also have two French friends who built their life in Barcelona and love it.
 

I would query this five year expiry for PR because my brother has lived here since 1979 and has flatly refused - REFUSED! - to take out Australian citizenship, despite having an Aussie wife and rarely leaving Australia.

It does however cause him the hassle of needing re-entry visas whenever he travels overseas (unless this has changed). When my mother died, he caused himself endless hassle with an expired UK passport and trying to get that re-entry visa all at short notice.

I may be wrong of course but I know my brother, unlike me and our other brother is not an Aussie citizen which means amongst other things he cannot vote, be called for jury service, nor I think work for the Commonwealth government.

 

Anyway, I just Googled "Permanent residence in Australia" which I think confirms what I said about my brother's status as a permaent resident of Australia. I was going to say that, like ideal homes to buy, there is always another job but only one chance at PR?

http://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Life/Aust-1

Australian permanent resident information

An Australian permanent resident (permanent resident) is the name given to a non-citizen who is the holder of a permanent visa. A permanent resident can live, work and study without restriction in Australia.

A permanent resident has most of the rights and entitlements of a citizen, however there are differences:

• A citizen has an automatic right of entry to Australia, however if a permanent resident chooses to travel internationally, they need to ensure they have a permanent visa with a valid travel authority if they wish to return to Australia as a permanent resident.
• A citizen can vote in Australian Government elections. In most cases permanent residents cannot, however if a permanent resident was enrolled to vote (as a British subject) prior to 1984, they may remain eligible to vote.

[BadgerLady]

Yes, I thinks it works out in the following scenarios:

1. I get PR, pack up and move to Finland and have lots of fun for nearly 5 years. In April 2022 I return to Australia, stay put for 2 years and apply for a Resident Return visa the next time I go overseas... if I do decide to settle in Australia I can just stay, or I can wait 4 years for citizenship and then leave again.

2. I get PR, go to Finland, fall in love and settle down there. I'm no longer interested in returning to Australia and just come back as a tourist.

3. I leave before PR is granted, claim my superannuation balance and set myself up in Finland. After a couple of years I get tired of it and want to return to Australia, so I work out Direct Entry, Rural or some other way to start the whole process again.

44 minutes ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I was going to say that, like ideal homes to buy, there is always another job but only one chance at PR?

I know that sounds logical but really, this is a true rarity. I always keep an eye on the global market - which is pretty niche - and I've seen something like this three times in 14 years. It's never come up in Australia (yet), but then it never came up in Scandinavia before!

In the meantime, my employer emailed yesterday to tell me what my next assignment here is (3 months). And it's something I'm totally uninterested in. I'm exhausted just thinking about it. I'll do it because I have to, but to CHOOSE to do it knowing what else is out there..?

[BadgerLady]

I'm actually pretty confident that I can swing both now  Just heard of a fella who applied 3rd December and was granted last night. That's just 7 weeks before my application! In Europe standard notice periods are 12 weeks and mine is only 4.

Edited May 19, 2017 by BadgerLady

[jess6]

6 hours ago, MaggieMay24 said:

The employer must pay the nomination for the 457, but there's nothing saying that the employer needs to cover any of the cost for the 186.

So the employer can ask the employee to pay for the nomination fees? 

Quick question so I am sure to understand, what is that form for: https://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/declaration-form-visa-applicant.pdf#search=declaration form sponsorship

 

[jess6]

3 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

I would query this five year expiry for PR because my brother has lived here since 1979 and has flatly refused - REFUSED! - to take out Australian citizenship, despite having an Aussie wife and rarely leaving Australia.

It does however cause him the hassle of needing re-entry visas whenever he travels overseas (unless this has changed). When my mother died, he caused himself endless hassle with an expired UK passport and trying to get that re-entry visa all at short notice.

I may be wrong of course but I know my brother, unlike me and our other brother is not an Aussie citizen which means amongst other things he cannot vote, be called for jury service, nor I think work for the Commonwealth government.

 

Anyway, I just Googled "Permanent residence in Australia" which I think confirms what I said about my brother's status as a permaent resident of Australia. I was going to say that, like ideal homes to buy, there is always another job but only one chance at PR?

http://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Life/Aust-1

Australian permanent resident information

An Australian permanent resident (permanent resident) is the name given to a non-citizen who is the holder of a permanent visa. A permanent resident can live, work and study without restriction in Australia.

A permanent resident has most of the rights and entitlements of a citizen, however there are differences:

• A citizen has an automatic right of entry to Australia, however if a permanent resident chooses to travel internationally, they need to ensure they have a permanent visa with a valid travel authority if they wish to return to Australia as a permanent resident.
• A citizen can vote in Australian Government elections. In most cases permanent residents cannot, however if a permanent resident was enrolled to vote (as a British subject) prior to 1984, they may remain eligible to vote.

It would be worth indeed, I had heard pretty much this: http://harwoodandrews.com.au/news/2014/5/15/the-dangers-of-misinterpreting-permanent-residence-status

Canada for example has been quite strict about people getting PR and then leaving. 

[jess6]

2 hours ago, BadgerLady said:

I'm actually pretty confident that I can swing both now  Just heard of a fella who applied 3rd December and was granted last night. That's just 7 weeks before my application! In Europe standard notice periods are 12 weeks and mine is only 4.

I hope you do  

[MaggieMay24]

6 hours ago, jess6 said:

So the employer can ask the employee to pay for the nomination fees? 

Quick question so I am sure to understand, what is that form for: https://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/declaration-form-visa-applicant.pdf#search=declaration form sponsorship

 

The employer can ask the employee to pay the nomination fees for the permanent visa.  The form is related to situations where the employer asks the employee to pay them (employer) in exchange for being sponsored.  For example, it's not allowed for the employer to charge the employee $10,000 in order to be sponsored.