Australia isn't for me!

[Toots]

8 minutes ago, ScottieGirl said:

Back to Pom Queen's question as to why people go back: in my case it was familial obligations. Most people migrate when they are young and their parents are healthy and don't think about how they will deal with elderly frail relatives until the time comes. My decision was helped greatly by the post Brexit vote pound which makes it much cheaper to live here than Sydney. 

I like both countries and could happily live in either, there are pros and cons to both and you have to work with them. On which note I  have just booked my first weekend to Europe ?

Have a lovely time on your weekend trip ScottieGirl!  

[Guest]

On 07/05/2017 at 6:09 AM, Booma said:

apart from the fact 90% of oz isnt desert the arid & desert areas are anything but boring. i spent time working with tour company in central oz & saw hauntingly beautiful & diverse scenery & unique plants & animals. what a shame you didnt really see what was there to be seen.

 

 

this! Australia is actually about 18% desert ... 90%

[MARYROSE02]

6 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

I'm not disputing your opinion but pointing that that large swathes of Europe does as well. In Paris there were three Australian pubs in the 90's. There was a course at the Uni there called Australian Studies, you could buy Aussie wine. There was an Australian Film Festival on for an entire month at the Pompidou Centre in Paris.

Likewise many opportunities to learn German, Spanish, Russian  and most anything else with greater opportunities to practise it. Australia is hardly unique in having a 'multi cultural' if that is the term you wish to use population. London has more exposure. Berlin must be edging up and Amsterdam it all around. People can live it easier and in an hour or two be in the real thing.

It is not a case of being 'sniffy' in most cases. It is just a more limited experience. Having just been to Tahiti, I can say it has a resemblance of France but not too far of going to Barbados for British culture. Same, same but grossly different. Sometimes you can't beat the' real thing'.  

Barbados is not a part of Britain. New Caledonia is still a part of France.  As soon as I saw Noumea I realized I was in a French city. I'm not talking about pubs for expats whether they be for Aussies in Europe or Brits and other nationalities here in OZ. I went into the odd Aussie pub in Britain and, apart from "real" Aussie staff and some imported Aussie beer, there was nothing intrinsically "Aussie" about them. You can say much the same about Pommie and Irish-themed pubs here. I suppose they appeal to homesick backpackers and the odd ex-pat but I usually avoid them.

There are clubs for just about every nationality here in Sydney but I'm talking about cultural institutes where you can immerse yourself in whichever country you want. And the point about the Southern Hemisphere is that it has its own culture and history and part of living in OZ can be about getting into that rather than pining for Northern Europe.

[Beffers]

On 7 May 2017 at 6:09 AM, Booma said:

apart from the fact 90% of oz isnt desert the arid & desert areas are anything but boring. i spent time working with tour company in central oz & saw hauntingly beautiful & diverse scenery & unique plants & animals. what a shame you didnt really see what was there to be seen.

 

 

Well said. I love the outback, the history of the aboriginal culture and its amazing diversity. My favourite bit is the top end, Kakadu and the road south from Katherine.  The flora and fauna is totally unique and its beautiful.  I'm an outdoorsy kind of person tho. It's not for everyone. 

 

[Lambethlad]

I have to disagree with those who bemoan Australia's lack of cultural diversity. Every race and culture on earth can be found in Melbourne alone. Yesterday I had reason to go to the suburb of Clayton which is only 30 mins from where I live but I had never been there. It was like a small part of China had been picked up and dumped in Oz. All the shop signage was in Chinese - nearly all the people were Chinese. I went into the "Hong Kong" supermarket to buy some smokes and was told they only sell Chinese cigarettes. Then I spent half an hour wondering around the supermarket being amazed by the strange foods. What the hell do they do with those huge sacks of black fungus?

[Guest263228]

11 hours ago, MARYROSE02 said:

Barbados is not a part of Britain. New Caledonia is still a part of France.  As soon as I saw Noumea I realized I was in a French city. I'm not talking about pubs for expats whether they be for Aussies in Europe or Brits and other nationalities here in OZ. I went into the odd Aussie pub in Britain and, apart from "real" Aussie staff and some imported Aussie beer, there was nothing intrinsically "Aussie" about them. You can say much the same about Pommie and Irish-themed pubs here. I suppose they appeal to homesick backpackers and the odd ex-pat but I usually avoid them.

There are clubs for just about every nationality here in Sydney but I'm talking about cultural institutes where you can immerse yourself in whichever country you want. And the point about the Southern Hemisphere is that it has its own culture and history and part of living in OZ can be about getting into that rather than pining for Northern Europe.

Barbados is not Britain, but maintains certain British institutions, and came to mind as was there recently. I could have said Malta or Cyprus but they speak languages other than English in the main, although most will speak English as a second language.

Now as for New Caledonia, it is not a department as is La Reunion or French Caribbean. Those places are part of France and have representatives in parliament as any region in France. NC does not. It is a territory. France Lite at very best just they speak French. Same for Tahiti where I recently was. Sure they spoke French, but in no way did I think myself as in France. In Barbados they spoke English, in the local patois, but didn't confuse that with England.

I'd say Aussie 'culture' if that is the term in pubs, is/was very easy to find in London. You won't find it in Southampton, but very alive in London, and I have already pointed out the presence in a city like Paris. It is not a case of personal avoidance, it is that they are available. In London there are pubs where a whole range of foreign communities drink in, Far exceeding Sydney.

One can emerge oneself in Aussie culture or any other country's culture, one may find themselves in. Your argument was not that though but the easy availability of connecting with others (cultures) in Sydney. Neither unique nor as prominent as other places if that is indeed ones preference.

[Guest263228]

3 hours ago, Lambethlad said:

I have to disagree with those who bemoan Australia's lack of cultural diversity. Every race and culture on earth can be found in Melbourne alone. Yesterday I had reason to go to the suburb of Clayton which is only 30 mins from where I live but I had never been there. It was like a small part of China had been picked up and dumped in Oz. All the shop signage was in Chinese - nearly all the people were Chinese. I went into the "Hong Kong" supermarket to buy some smokes and was told they only sell Chinese cigarettes. Then I spent half an hour wondering around the supermarket being amazed by the strange foods. What the hell do they do with those huge sacks of black fungus?

Every race on earth and you confine yourself to writing about Chinese? I think most people are fully aware that Chinese and Indians are getting increasing footholds in Australian suburbia. To a lesser extent Koreans and Middle Easterners as well.

Australia's immigration intake is predominately from five major sources. Hardly every race and culture on earth.

[Toots]

Even here in Devonport this end of our street has people originally from Germany, The Netherlands, France, India, Mauritius, Scotland and England.

[Skani]

2 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Australia's immigration intake is predominately from five major sources. Hardly every race and culture on earth.

The diversity is significant enough for SBS to produce programs - in Australia - in 74 different languages (out of the 200+ spoken in Oz).

[Guest The Pom Queen]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments. I understand that Leeds and Poland are polar opposites but so is Dandenong and Cairns. 

There are so many areas and something for everyone in every country. If we didn't want to compare with the whole of Europe we could even say I hate the whole of the UK because I visited Bradford. 

This thread wasn't to say the UK or Australia is the better place it was to try and understand how some people can compare the whole of Australia to one suburb. Look at @LKC after doing some travelling around she has found some beautiful places.

I do understand those going home to be closer to family or those who have struggled for work.

[Bobj]

11 minutes ago, The Pom Queen said:

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments. I understand that Leeds and Poland are polar opposites but so is Dandenong and Cairns. 

There are so many areas and something for everyone in every country. If we didn't want to compare with the whole of Europe we could even say I hate the whole of the UK because I visited Bradford. 

This thread wasn't to say the UK or Australia is the better place it was to try and understand how some people can compare the whole of Australia to one suburb. Look at @LKC after doing some travelling around she has found some beautiful places.

I do understand those going home to be closer to family or those who have struggled for work.

Toss up between British West Bradford and British Sarf Oldham...

Cheers, Bobj.

[Guest263228]

3 hours ago, Skani said:

The diversity is significant enough for SBS to produce programs - in Australia - in 74 different languages (out of the 200+ spoken in Oz).

You mean the station that is being deprived of money and in serious decline? 74 languages really? Amsterdam used to claim 120 when I lived there. I believe London claims close to 200. New York more. Of course some of these language groups are extremely small in the number speaking.

[Guest263228]

3 hours ago, Bobj said:

Toss up between British West Bradford and British Sarf Oldham...

Cheers, Bobj.

Try Newham in London.

[starlight7]

I also think some people are unprepared for the homesickness that hits them, particularly if they are from a close family group. We didn't have this as our ties to the UK were fairly loose except for parents- we had moved around a few times and didn't have the deep roots that some have. Now the thought of emigrating away from Australia would fill me with horror because we have very deep roots here, lots of family( good breeders!) and friends.

[MARYROSE02]

On 09/05/2017 at 0:01 PM, Pura Vida said:

Barbados is not Britain, but maintains certain British institutions, and came to mind as was there recently. I could have said Malta or Cyprus but they speak languages other than English in the main, although most will speak English as a second language.

Now as for New Caledonia, it is not a department as is La Reunion or French Caribbean. Those places are part of France and have representatives in parliament as any region in France. NC does not. It is a territory. France Lite at very best just they speak French. Same for Tahiti where I recently was. Sure they spoke French, but in no way did I think myself as in France. In Barbados they spoke English, in the local patois, but didn't confuse that with England.

I'd say Aussie 'culture' if that is the term in pubs, is/was very easy to find in London. You won't find it in Southampton, but very alive in London, and I have already pointed out the presence in a city like Paris. It is not a case of personal avoidance, it is that they are available. In London there are pubs where a whole range of foreign communities drink in, Far exceeding Sydney.

One can emerge oneself in Aussie culture or any other country's culture, one may find themselves in. Your argument was not that though but the easy availability of connecting with others (cultures) in Sydney. Neither unique nor as prominent as other places if that is indeed ones preference.

We can quibble about the political status of New Caledonia but the fact remains that French people live there, many of whom are born there,and some who have moved there, like the lady from near Calais I spoke to on the Isle of Pines who had married a local. Malta. Cyprus, Barbardos, are all former colonies or British possessions which have become independent nations. New Caledonia is certainly not "France Lite" whatever that means, although it sounds patronising. The bottom line is that if you go there you have to speak French.

Southampton has or had an Aussie pub not that i enjoyed going there and I enjoy going to English themed pubs even less in Sydney, full of homesick expats who have failed to integrate themselves into Australian society. I've been an Aussie citizen for 33 years. My British passport expired 7 years ago.

If you crave a particular nation's culture and language, then in a city like Sydney, you can indulge it, although you may not find anybody who actually misses living in their home country. I know many French people in Sydney who came here for the same reason I did, and want to stay for the same reason that I do.

[Guest263228]

Just a shame as you have said yourself you never gave London a go before moving to Sydney. I would be inclined more to agree with your assessment.

I hardly think an Aussie themed pub in Southampton (how many Aussies in Southampton again?)  would be in any way attractive and far removed from anything authentic. London had several full of Aussies and Kiwi's along with the odd Pom. Over authentic if anything at certain times.

I think if you want to experience English culture you possibly wouldn't go to Gibraltar. Similar applies to New Caledonia. It is France Lite at best. Obviously they speak French. So what? As I mentioned being in Tahiti the previous month I did not for one moment confuse with France, although did meet French people that were happily transplanted in the Pacific.

Actually being a Francophile, I have not met many at all, French people whom, while perhaps not 'missing' France do not miss French culture and language. In fact a large number have indeed moved on over the decades. Quite a few returned to France or Belgium, others to elsewhere.  

If English speakers apparently have such difficulty in many cases settling, it is often many times worse for those from different language groups. Especially is speaking accented English.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Pura Vida

[Toots]

On 10/05/2017 at 9:34 PM, starlight7 said:

I also think some people are unprepared for the homesickness that hits them, particularly if they are from a close family group. We didn't have this as our ties to the UK were fairly loose except for parents- we had moved around a few times and didn't have the deep roots that some have. Now the thought of emigrating away from Australia would fill me with horror because we have very deep roots here, lots of family( good breeders!) and friends.

My (Australian) husband and I used to go for a beer at the Bull And Gate in Kentish Town when we were working in London.  Lots of Aussies used to drink in there.  At the time it was a regular local - just a largish one room pub.  I went to it when I was in London a couple of years ago and it has changed so much.  It now has a dining room and sells all sorts of craft beer.  Quite posh now.

PS  I didn't intend for the attached quote to appear.  

Edited May 16, 2017 by Toots

[Guest263228]

7 minutes ago, Toots said:

My (Australian) husband and I used to go for a beer at the Bull And Gate in Kentish Town when we were working in London.  Lots of Aussies used to drink in there.  At the time it was a regular local - just a largish one room pub.  I went to it when I was in London a couple of years ago and it has changed so much.  It now has a dining room and sells all sorts of craft beer.  Quite posh now.

PS  I didn't intend for the attached quote to appear.  

Don't know the Bull and Gate, but found during fairly recent visits a similar phenomenon. Pubs evolved I suppose to keep abreast of present day requirements in order to survive. Gastro pubs seemed al the go when last in London. The Aussie pubs of old also a past relic. The old Prince of Teck on the Earls Court Road, long an Aussie watering hole, long gone. (famous for the stuffed roo with a fag in its mouth) Kings Head a little further down the road, gone as well. The area has in recent times gone upmarket and far removed from 'Kangaroo Valley" days. Even the Aussie chain pub, the one located down 'The Bush' closed its doors fairly recently. Not sure if the whole chain has gone. No idea if the bawdy and brash 'Church' has finished either. It was in Kings Cross last heard, but recall when it was in Fulham. May have heard a whisper it had moved to Acton. (some years ago)

[Toots]

6 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Don't know the Bull and Gate, but found during fairly recent visits a similar phenomenon. Pubs evolved I suppose to keep abreast of present day requirements in order to survive. Gastro pubs seemed al the go when last in London. The Aussie pubs of old also a past relic. The old Prince of Teck on the Earls Court Road, long an Aussie watering hole, long gone. (famous for the stuffed roo with a fag in its mouth) Kings Head a little further down the road, gone as well. The area has in recent times gone upmarket and far removed from 'Kangaroo Valley" days. Even the Aussie chain pub, the one located down 'The Bush' closed its doors fairly recently. Not sure if the whole chain has gone. No idea if the bawdy and brash 'Church' has finished either. It was in Kings Cross last heard, but recall when it was in Fulham. May have heard a whisper it had moved to Acton. (some years ago)

That's got me reminiscing about the pubs we used to frequent.  One of my favourites was the Greyhound in Fulham Palace Road - great live music venue in those days.  I wonder if it's still up and running - I have a feeling it's not.  Maybe @simmo knows.  At that time my sister was in a flatshare in Hammersmith and we often went to really good concerts at the Hammersmith Apollo.  I don't think we ever went to the Earls Court area but I do remember an Aussie pub in Shepherds Bush.

 

[Guest263228]

2 hours ago, Toots said:

That's got me reminiscing about the pubs we used to frequent.  One of my favourites was the Greyhound in Fulham Palace Road - great live music venue in those days.  I wonder if it's still up and running - I have a feeling it's not.  Maybe @simmo knows.  At that time my sister was in a flatshare in Hammersmith and we often went to really good concerts at the Hammersmith Apollo.  I don't think we ever went to the Earls Court area but I do remember an Aussie pub in Shepherds Bush.

 

Yep  The Greyhound. I recall a group of Aussies/Kiwi's asking me directions outside Fulham Broadway station once with regards to getting there. A name I hadn't thought of for many a decade. Apollo as well. I used to work in Shepherds Bush Road so knew the area and most every pub probably rather too well. Some were dives, not to say rough  though so didn't bother.

[amibovered]

On 5/9/2017 at 05:52, The Pom Queen said:

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments. I understand that Leeds and Poland are polar opposites but so is Dandenong and Cairns. 

There are so many areas and something for everyone in every country. If we didn't want to compare with the whole of Europe we could even say I hate the whole of the UK because I visited Bradford. 

This thread wasn't to say the UK or Australia is the better place it was to try and understand how some people can compare the whole of Australia to one suburb. Look at @LKC after doing some travelling around she has found some beautiful places.

I do understand those going home to be closer to family or those who have struggled for work.

The difference between Europe and Australia is not in terms of scenery or geography, both have huge variety  but in the diversity of cultures.  

Edited May 16, 2017 by amibovered

[jess6]

Interesting thread.

I love Australia, the country has a stunning beauty but I also love Europe and I hope I will convince my Aussie Fiance to give it a go at some time of our lives. 

I understand and respect that you guys love Australia but to me, Europe is amazing too for different reasons.

In Australia I love being able to go somewhere without anybody around. That's really peaceful. I also love the gorgeous nature and wildlife. This is just unique.

Still, I just find it very expensive to travel within Australia and it is quite painful to me to have to fly at least 8 hours to be in a completely different country with a different culture and a different language (i.e. South East Asia).

I do not mean to be disrespectful or arrogant but really even though there are many different European communities here. This is just not the same as being able to visit the actual countries. On the topic of New Caledonia, I have relatives who lived in Noumea, got homesick and decided to get back to France after a year. I have never been to Noumea, but with all due respect, I doubt it'd be the same as being in "l'Hexagone".

I personally love Europe because I find it freaking awesome to be able to work in 26 countries. When I was working in Hamburg, it was so amazing to go to the airport in 20 minutes and fly for a weekend to Milan, London, Amsterdam, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen or Barcelona without having to go through customs. Travelling was also much cheaper there than it is in Australia and it is just so convenient to be able to pay in the same currency (I know not everywhere ;-))

So yeah, I do not see why people would judge other people based on what country or culture they are the most happy in. This will really depend on the person and on their lifestyle. And I clearly understand the many people I know who spent several years in Oz and decided to go back to Europe. Because Europe is far from being a bad place to live. At least all my friends who went back are happy to be back there.

[ScottieGirl]

17 minutes ago, amibovered said:

The difference between Europe and Australia is not in terms of scenery or geography, both have huge variety  but in the diversity of cultures.  

Size of population and time zone make a difference as well. Australia is second tier when it comes to big business. New products hit Europe first and there are often more interesting work assignments over there.

[Guest263228]

56 minutes ago, jess6 said:

Interesting thread.

I love Australia, the country has a stunning beauty but I also love Europe and I hope I will convince my Aussie Fiance to give it a go at some time of our lives. 

I understand and respect that you guys love Australia but to me, Europe is amazing too for different reasons.

In Australia I love being able to go somewhere without anybody around. That's really peaceful. I also love the gorgeous nature and wildlife. This is just unique.

Still, I just find it very expensive to travel within Australia and it is quite painful to me to have to fly at least 8 hours to be in a completely different country with a different culture and a different language (i.e. South East Asia).

I do not mean to be disrespectful or arrogant but really even though there are many different European communities here. This is just not the same as being able to visit the actual countries. On the topic of New Caledonia, I have relatives who lived in Noumea, got homesick and decided to get back to France after a year. I have never been to Noumea, but with all due respect, I doubt it'd be the same as being in "l'Hexagone".

I personally love Europe because I find it freaking awesome to be able to work in 26 countries. When I was working in Hamburg, it was so amazing to go to the airport in 20 minutes and fly for a weekend to Milan, London, Amsterdam, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen or Barcelona without having to go through customs. Travelling was also much cheaper there than it is in Australia and it is just so convenient to be able to pay in the same currency (I know not everywhere ;-))

So yeah, I do not see why people would judge other people based on what country or culture they are the most happy in. This will really depend on the person and on their lifestyle. And I clearly understand the many people I know who spent several years in Oz and decided to go back to Europe. Because Europe is far from being a bad place to live. At least all my friends who went back are happy to be back there.

Only issue being your girlfriend may well not want to return to Australia after experiencing Europe. Europe is the full deal, even with its problems which are well documented. For diversity, culture, lifestyle in general.   Only problem being the difficulty for too many in getting viable employment.

[MARYROSE02]

13 hours ago, Pura Vida said:

Don't know the Bull and Gate, but found during fairly recent visits a similar phenomenon. Pubs evolved I suppose to keep abreast of present day requirements in order to survive. Gastro pubs seemed al the go when last in London. The Aussie pubs of old also a past relic. The old Prince of Teck on the Earls Court Road, long an Aussie watering hole, long gone. (famous for the stuffed roo with a fag in its mouth) Kings Head a little further down the road, gone as well. The area has in recent times gone upmarket and far removed from 'Kangaroo Valley" days. Even the Aussie chain pub, the one located down 'The Bush' closed its doors fairly recently. Not sure if the whole chain has gone. No idea if the bawdy and brash 'Church' has finished either. It was in Kings Cross last heard, but recall when it was in Fulham. May have heard a whisper it had moved to Acton. (some years ago)

So those pubs have all gone? I remember going into the Prince of Tek and my vague memory is of Aussie stereotypes in thongs and AFL shirts getting hammered on cans of VB in a bar awash with beer. Looking back it was a strange period in my life where I felt alienated from both England and Australia. After 18 years living in Sydney I went back to England and stayed there for 12 years.  People I worked with there called me "Aussie Dave" which I felt embarrassed about because I knew I had a strident Pommie accent, BUT, to them, perhaps I did sound like an Aussie. What do you tell people when they ask you where you are from? "Well, I was born and raised in England, but then I moved to OZ and now I'm an Aussie citizen?"

The odd thing is that all those existential worries about who I am and what I am have disappeared. I'm just "me!" To be honest Aussies (i.e. white Aussies) don't care where I'm from, and for them as for me, I'm just "me" aka Dave which is how it should be.

When I went back to England to live I sometimes had an urge to mix with Aussies and there was a "Down Under" (I think that was the name) bar in Southampton. As I think I may have mentioned in another post there was nothing intrinsically "Aussie" about the place apart from Aussie or Kiwi staff and some Aussie beer. It was just a brand with a theme. I recall another bar in Southampton called "Flares" which had a supposedly 1970's theme, but that did as little for me as Down Under bar.

From what you say about London perhaps Aussies on holiday or as expats are no longer so homesick or insecure that they need to seek out reminders of "home." That is the way it is for most of us Poms in OZ too!