Changes to pathway to Citizenship

[NicF]

2 minutes ago, dredg97 said:

Staying on PR rather than getting citizenship has several disadvantages.

Do you want to study at university? From next year, as per new budget announced in May, permanent residents will pay as much as international students (i.e.$35-40K rather than $5-10K per year). Think about those families being here on PR for 1 year with 16-17 yo waiting to go to university. If the Bill will pass, they have to wait up to 3 years before having their children enrolled at university.

It's true you can stay indefinitely, but things can change in the future. At the end of the day, you are still on a visa and what you are entitled to today may not be there tomorrow.

Do you have to leave the country extensively for work? What if your parents in your country of origin get sick and require you to come back for a certain period of time?  You might not be able to qualify for your next RRV.

 

Actually this is not entirely true.  PR students will pay domestic fees but will not be entitled to any commonwealth funding so they will be paying something like $15k to $25k per year (can't remember the exact figures).  And they will be able to access loans to pay for fees rather than having to pay up front like they do at the moment.

[Roberta2]

In relation to school fees (government schools), in Queensland PRs are treated no differently from Citizens.  I presume it's the same in other states.

 

 

[dredg97]

49 minutes ago, NicF said:

Actually this is not entirely true.  PR students will pay domestic fees but will not be entitled to any commonwealth funding so they will be paying something like $15k to $25k per year (can't remember the exact figures).  And they will be able to access loans to pay for fees rather than having to pay up front like they do at the moment.

PR students will pay domestic fees? Could you please provide the source of information?

As far as I am aware, permanent residents and New Zealand citizens will be stopped from enrolling in Commonwealth-supported places, meaning they will have to pay full fees for degrees.

They can access loans, whereas previously they had to pay upfront, but what's they point if the fees increase enormously.

[dredg97]

2 minutes ago, Roberta2 said:

In relation to school fees (government schools), in Queensland PRs are treated no differently from Citizens.  I presume it's the same in other states.

 

 

You need to get up to date, check the Budget announced in May...

We are talking about University fees by the way...

Edited June 23, 2017 by dredg97

[Roberta2]

I was talking about school fees, not university fees.  And I quoted from the current Queensland government website.  The general question is what advantages do Citizens currently enjoy over PRs - across the board.  As noted, the crossbench Senators will be particularly interested in how Australian laws - current and mooted by Dutton- compare with those of "comparable countries".

[Roberta2]

The proposed changes to university fees  have to pass the Senate.   They are highly contentious.   People here seem to be assuming that they are already in place.  Nothing proposed in any Budget becomes law until it clears the Senate, which is a much more powerful upper house than in some comparable countries such as the UK.  There are many Senators who will be worried about Australia pricing itself out of the international student market if these PROPOSED changes become law.

[dredg97]

11 minutes ago, Roberta2 said:

People here seem to be assuming that they are already in place.  Nothing proposed in any Budget becomes law until it clears the Senate, which is a much more powerful upper house than in some comparable countries such as the UK.  There are many Senators who will be worried about Australia pricing itself out of the international student market if these PROPOSED changes become law.

LOL...not just here, also the Government seems to be assuming that the PROPOSED changes to the Citizenship Act 2007 are already in place.

 

[Spinny]

3 minutes ago, dredg97 said:

LOL...not just here, also the Government seems to be assuming that the PROPOSED changes to the Citizenship Act 2007 are already in place.

 

At the very least chrome dome and his pal Maly.  I do hope they're shown a particular finger and the door!

[Roberta2]

I strongly doubt anyone is assuming anything.  Everyone knows it's like herding cats in the Senate. The education bill (schools) scraped through the Senate at 2.30 a.m.or so on Friday, by one vote.  The higher education and the citizenship bills are equally contentious.  The voting records of the Senators give some clues of course, but Lambie (who votes against the government 70% of the time) was a big surprise on the Gonski bill when she voted for the legislation.  (The Greens unexpectedly found themselves with worse than nothing, because they found they had hung out their internal squabbles like dirty washing)  New Senator Lucy Gichuhi's maiden speech was very interesting, but eclipsed by all the drama going on.  Well worth a read.  True, Dutton is not known as a good negotiator, as Birmingham clearly is - but Senator Cash, not Dutton, will be running the show in the Senate, with the help of Senator Cormann and others.  Basically, it would be unwise to assume anything until the fate of this citizenship bill is known.

[NicF]

7 hours ago, dredg97 said:

PR students will pay domestic fees? Could you please provide the source of information?

As far as I am aware, permanent residents and New Zealand citizens will be stopped from enrolling in Commonwealth-supported places, meaning they will have to pay full fees for degrees.

They can access loans, whereas previously they had to pay upfront, but what's they point if the fees increase enormously.

Page 18 of this document https://docs.education.gov.au/system/files/doc/other/ed17-0138_-_he_-_glossy_budget_report_acc.pdf towards the bottom of the page and going on to page 19.  PR and New Zealand students will still be domestic students but will have to pay full domestic fees rather than getting the subsidy from the government.  Note, full fee paying is not the same as being an international student as international students are charged more than domestic students, even when the amount the government pays is taken in to account.

Edited June 24, 2017 by NicF

[dredg97]

2 hours ago, Roberta2 said:

I strongly doubt anyone is assuming anything.  Everyone knows it's like herding cats in the Senate. The education bill (schools) scraped through the Senate at 2.30 a.m.or so on Friday, by one vote.  The higher education and the citizenship bills are equally contentious.  The voting records of the Senators give some clues of course, but Lambie (who votes against the government 70% of the time) was a big surprise on the Gonski bill when she voted for the legislation.  (The Greens unexpectedly found themselves with worse than nothing, because they found they had hung out their internal squabbles like dirty washing)  New Senator Lucy Gichuhi's maiden speech was very interesting, but eclipsed by all the drama going on.  Well worth a read.  True, Dutton is not known as a good negotiator, as Birmingham clearly is - but Senator Cash, not Dutton, will be running the show in the Senate, with the help of Senator Cormann and others.  Basically, it would be unwise to assume anything until the fate of this citizenship bill is known.

Good, at least this time you have refrained from talking about terrorism attacks...

Agree, it is highly contentious and far from being resolved.

Truth is that hundreds of applications are currently not being processed in the interim, and that's unfair, un-Australian, illogical...

[dredg97]

7 minutes ago, NicF said:

Page 18 of this document https://docs.education.gov.au/system/files/doc/other/ed17-0138_-_he_-_glossy_budget_report_acc.pdf towards the bottom of the page and going on to page 19.  PR and New Zealand students will still be domestic students but will have to pay full domestic fees rather than getting the subsidy from the government.  Note, full fee paying is not the same as being an international student as international students are charged more than domestic students, even when the amount the government pays is taken in to account.

Thank you for that, it will be interesting to see a comparison between the domestic full fee vs international fee.

[Roberta2]

19 minutes ago, dredg97 said:

Thank you for that, it will be interesting to see a comparison between the domestic full fee vs international fee.

Yes - PRs lose the subsidy, but gain access to loans so they don't have to pay upfront.  Swings and roundabouts.  

 

+Under current arrangements, most Australian permanent residents and most New Zealand (NZ) citizens are treated as domestic students for the purposes of receiving a CGS subsidy but are not eligible for HELP loans. Only Australian citizens, permanent humanitarian visa holders, and certain NZ Special Category Visa holders (who arrived in Australia as minors and have been resident for the majority of the last ten years) can access HELP loans. All other students have to pay upfront fees— presenting a significant barrier to higher education for many students. This reform will address this anomalous situation by extending loan support to such permanent residents and New Zealand citizens and removing access to CSPs, effectively treating these students the same as domestic full fee-paying students.+ 

Comment: a clear link between the Citizenship Bill and the Higher Education Bill.  How this will all come out is anyone's guess.

 

[silencio]

Being a PR has no disadvantages as being an Aussie in general as basics like Medicare, tax benefit A, welfare benefits (after the waiting period is served), local voting rights are provided. The only negative part for PR' is to renew the travel facility after 5 years (but only if travel overseas is necessary) and PR can be cancelled after committing a crime.

How realistic is it that established migrants with a mortgage, children at school will strive for a career as a student or becoming a pollie in Canberra? Not very likely I guess.

Every PR who wishes to become a citizen will get there sooner or later. Well, most humans don't like changes. So, do I but we have to accept that many things in life are subject to change.

Most of us came here voluntary and have to accept the changing rules of immigration + citizenship if we want to go on with our lives. We want something from Australia not vice versa.

Australia is still one of the most generous countries in the world in  regards to allow to apply for citizenship after 4 years waiting time only as a PR. Pauline Hanson wants to increase the waiting time to 8 years. Imagine she would have any influence in politics.

Edited June 24, 2017 by silencio

[wombatinabox]

Hi Folks,

Make sure you submit your story and objections to Tony Burke of the Labour party here 

https://www.tonyburke.com.au/get-active/citizenshippetition

 

Also search for your local MP and senator using this website http://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Members and email them to reject the new proposed changes. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by wombatinabox

[Nick Perth]

I came to Australia in January 2014 on a 457 visa with my wife and three kids. I've only applied for PR in May 2017 under the transitional PR route. My eldest son is in year 9 so he won't get a Commonwealth Place for two-thirds of his Uni degree and taking a gap year wouldn't help as time outside Australia may not count to citizenship clock. You can check on fee calculators for domestic degree rates. They are only slightly less than the overseas rates. $70,000 per annum for medicine and $30,000 for science and engineering. We'd be better off going back to the UK for £9,000 a year!  But technically you lose your rights to a UK degree if you've not been there for the past three years!  I'm very stressed about the whole thing. I've written to Tony  Burke at Labor and Nick Xenophon. All the media coverage has been on the English language test and us Brits are exempt from this. So if you are equally impacted like me I suggest you make your voices known. See my reply from Nick's team. They do hear us, but Xenothon is the swing vote so we need to persuade him if you similarly want a 457 visa to count!

 

 

Dear Nick

 

Thank you for your email to Nick Xenophon. I am responding on his behalf.

 

Thank you for making Nick aware of your concerns regarding the Australian Citizenship Legislation Amendment (Strengthening the Requirements for Australian Citizenship and Other Measures) Bill 2017, and for sharing your experience. I have passed your comments on to Nick and his senior advisors for their reference and consideration.

 

This legislation was only introduced to the parliament on 15 June 2017, and the Nick Xenophon Team (NXT) have raised concerns about several aspects of the bill, in particular the retrospectivity of the proposed changes. You can read more about this here: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jun/22/nick-xenophon-team-says-its-deeply-worried-about-coalitions-citizenship-bill.  

 

The legislation is currently before the House of Representatives, and you can find more here:http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r5914.

 

You can also listen to a recent interview Nick did on the issue here: https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pgeGQyj9MG?play=true

 

Thank you again for writing to Nick, and please be assured he will keep your views in mind should this legislation come before the Senate.

 

Kind regards

 

Ellen McDonald| Diary Manager/Electorate Officer | Office of Nick Xenophon

Senator for South Australia

Lvl 2/31 Ebenezer Place, Adelaide | TEL: 08 8232 1144 | FAX 08 8232 3744 |www.nickxenophon.com.au

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Nick Perth

[Nemesis]

10 minutes ago, Nick Perth said:

I came to Australia in January 2014 on a 457 visa with my wife and three kids. I've only applied for PR in May 2017 under the transitional PR route. My eldest son is in year 9 so he won't get a Commonwealth Place for two-thirds of his Uni degree and taking a gap year wouldn't help as time outside Australia may not count to citizenship clock. You can check on fee calculators for domestic degree rates. They are only slightly less than the overseas rates. $70,000 per annum for medicine and $30,000 for science and engineering. We'd be better off going back to the UK for £9,000 a year!  But technically you lose your rights to a UK degree if you've not been there for the past three years!  

 

You don't 'lose your rights to a UK degree' - no one has any right to a degree. 

What happens is that you are treated as an international student, rather than a domnestic (UK) student, so the fees are higher. 

[Phoenix16]

3 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

You don't 'lose your rights to a UK degree' - no one has any right to a degree. 

What happens is that you are treated as an international student, rather than a domnestic (UK) student, so the fees are higher. 

It does seem rather unfair though that you have paid significant taxes into 2 countries Over the years and neither one will allow your child to undertake a degree as a domestic student.  There are a minority who will fall into this situation and I have full empathy for them, it saddens me immensely when parents attempting to give their children better lives and opportunities can find themselves in such a situation.

[Phoenix16]

On 24/06/2017 at 15:54, silencio said:

Being a PR has no disadvantages as being an Aussie in general as basics like Medicare, tax benefit A, welfare benefits (after the waiting period is served), local voting rights are provided. The only negative part for PR' is to renew the travel facility after 5 years (but only if travel overseas is necessary) and PR can be cancelled after committing a crime.

How realistic is it that established migrants with a mortgage, children at school will strive for a career as a student or becoming a pollie in Canberra? Not very likely I guess.

Every PR who wishes to become a citizen will get there sooner or later. Well, most humans don't like changes. So, do I but we have to accept that many things in life are subject to change.

Most of us came here voluntary and have to accept the changing rules of immigration + citizenship if we want to go on with our lives. We want something from Australia not vice versa.

Australia is still one of the most generous countries in the world in  regards to allow to apply for citizenship after 4 years waiting time only as a PR. Pauline Hanson wants to increase the waiting time to 8 years. Imagine she would have any influence in politics.

There are some significan benefits too.  As migrants with families in other parts of the world, there are times, particularly with elderly relatives where we may be required to spend significant amounts of time out of Australia, also, the number of stories I have read of families returning to the uk  with children being brought up in OZ choosing to stay here, and years later after PR has lapsed realising they have no rights to return and live in the same country as their children...becoming a citizen ensures that you can always live in the same country as your children and also means you can care for your aged relatives when you need to without loosing your right to return here, and as has been just highlighted, your children can actually go to university without you having to sell your home and all your worldly goods xxx

[Nick Perth]

37 minutes ago, Phoenix16 said:

It does seem rather unfair though that you have paid significant taxes into 2 countries Over the years and neither one will allow your child to undertake a degree as a domestic student.  There are a minority who will fall into this situation and I have full empathy for them, it saddens me immensely when parents attempting to give their children better lives and opportunities can find themselves in such a situation.

Exactly my point. What's particularly frustrating is we have friends who arrived on PR after us who will be unaffected as they were already on PR not a 457. We couldn't have foreseen these changes so the complaint is the retrospective and arbitrary nature of these changes! I'm not sure if a minority will be caught. This article shows 31,000 people on PR will be caught. 

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/collateral-damage-exliberal-leader-slams-impact-of-visa-changes-20170522-gwa368.html

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Nick Perth

[silencio]

25 minutes ago, Phoenix16 said:

There are some significan benefits too.  As migrants with families in other parts of the world, there are times, particularly with elderly relatives where we may be required to spend significant amounts of time out of Australia, also, the number of stories I have read of families returning to the uk  with children being brought up in OZ choosing to stay here, and years later after PR has lapsed realising they have no rights to return and live in the same country as their children...becoming a citizen ensures that you can always live in the same country as your children and also means you can care for your aged relatives when you need to without loosing your right to return here, and as has been just highlighted, your children can actually go to university without you having to sell your home and all your worldly goods xxx

This is NOT a benefit to me as I would lose my citizenship of my country of origin.

Ha, ha you are an 'intelligent' person recommending others to deprive the citizenship of country of origin to they can NOT after their parents!!! and

You have obviously no idea about countries not permitting their citizens to hold dual nationality?

What a gain to hold an Aussie passport and not being able to look after my parents because my country of origin makes it a requirement to hold a visa while I would look after them which has to be renewed and also to reapply for a work permission. Or how would you look after your parents not working yourself?

By the way, how many people are able to afford to go back to look after their parents with a mortgage and teenagers who don't wish to relocate again? To sell the house, resettle again etc. By the way, even with an Aussie passports we all get older down the track and ageism is still alive as far as I'm concerned and in my job my skills would be outdated coming back to Australia (depending on the industry you are in of course).

So don't waste your breath for not knowing the situation of PR's who are not allowed to become dual nationals. It's only hooey in my ears.

[silencio]

Just now, silencio said:

This is NOT a benefit to me as I would lose my citizenship of my country of origin.

Ha, ha you are an 'intelligent' person recommending others to deprive the citizenship of country of origin to they can NOT care for their parents!!! 

You have obviously no idea about countries not permitting their citizens to hold dual nationality?

What a gain to hold an Aussie passport and not being able to look after my parents because my country of origin makes it a requirement to hold a visa while I would look after them which has to be renewed and also to reapply for a work permission. Or how would you look after your parents not working yourself?

By the way, how many people are able to afford to go back to look after their parents with a mortgage and teenagers who don't wish to relocate again? To sell the house, resettle again etc. By the way, even with an Aussie passports we all get older down the track and ageism is still alive as far as I'm concerned and in my job my skills would be outdated coming back to Australia (depending on the industry you are in of course).

So don't waste your breath for not knowing the situation of PR's who are not allowed to become dual nationals. It's only hooey in my ears.

 

[Roberta2]

You could make a good case to the other key crossbench senators - Hinch, Lambie and Gichuhi- that you have been disadvantaged by the relationship between the Citizenship Bill and the Higher Education Bill, both of which will come before Parliament when it resumes.  i.e. that the time period for PRs to apply for citizenship has been extended by three years in the Citizenship Bill AND it is also proposed that from 1 January 2018, PRs will no longer be eligible for Commonwealth Supported Places at university.  Perhaps suggest that PRs who have been here for a year should still be entitled to CSP, and not be forced to pay full domestic fees.    (I couldn't read the SMH link - have exceeded my monthly quota of free articles.)

[Nick Perth]

I certainly will be lobbying them all.  Under the current rules the 457 visa and PR both count to PR as long as you have one year PR and a total of four years here. I can't see why this should change or at least there should be transitional rules. 

[wombatinabox]

3 hours ago, Nick Perth said:

I came to Australia in January 2014 on a 457 visa with my wife and three kids. I've only applied for PR in May 2017 under the transitional PR route. My eldest son is in year 9 so he won't get a Commonwealth Place for two-thirds of his Uni degree and taking a gap year wouldn't help as time outside Australia may not count to citizenship clock. You can check on fee calculators for domestic degree rates. They are only slightly less than the overseas rates. $70,000 per annum for medicine and $30,000 for science and engineering. We'd be better off going back to the UK for £9,000 a year!  But technically you lose your rights to a UK degree if you've not been there for the past three years!  I'm very stressed about the whole thing. I've written to Tony  Burke at Labor and Nick Xenophon. All the media coverage has been on the English language test and us Brits are exempt from this. So if you are equally impacted like me I suggest you make your voices known. See my reply from Nick's team. They do hear us, but Xenothon is the swing vote so we need to persuade him if you similarly want a 457 visa to count!

 

 

Dear Nick

 

Thank you for your email to Nick Xenophon. I am responding on his behalf.

 

Thank you for making Nick aware of your concerns regarding the Australian Citizenship Legislation Amendment (Strengthening the Requirements for Australian Citizenship and Other Measures) Bill 2017, and for sharing your experience. I have passed your comments on to Nick and his senior advisors for their reference and consideration.

 

This legislation was only introduced to the parliament on 15 June 2017, and the Nick Xenophon Team (NXT) have raised concerns about several aspects of the bill, in particular the retrospectivity of the proposed changes. You can read more about this here: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jun/22/nick-xenophon-team-says-its-deeply-worried-about-coalitions-citizenship-bill.  

 

The legislation is currently before the House of Representatives, and you can find more here:http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r5914.

 

You can also listen to a recent interview Nick did on the issue here: https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pgeGQyj9MG?play=true

 

Thank you again for writing to Nick, and please be assured he will keep your views in mind should this legislation come before the Senate.

 

Kind regards

 

Ellen McDonald| Diary Manager/Electorate Officer | Office of Nick Xenophon

Senator for South Australia

Lvl 2/31 Ebenezer Place, Adelaide | TEL: 08 8232 1144 | FAX 08 8232 3744 |www.nickxenophon.com.au

 

 

 

Good work mate, Nick Xenophon is a powerful member, good to keep him on our side. 

Everyone else affected by this, it is your duty Make sure you submit your story and objections to Tony Burke of the Labour party here 

https://www.tonyburke.com.au/get-active/citizenshippetition

 

Also search for your local MP and senator using this website http://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Members and email them to reject the new proposed changes.