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    16 minutes ago, bunbury61 said:

    sky poll - just on the news

    74% say " no deal is better than a bad deal "with the e.u

    I agree to 

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    This is a great article from a pro-Brexiter, worth digesting if you can.  It reflects a lot of the emotion, reasoning (or lack thereof) on this thread.  Sometimes inevitability just rules and just deserts are due.

    It's worth quoting in full.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/how-i-learnt-to-loathe-england

    Quote

    When I came to live in London with my family in 2011 I did not have to think of a work or residency permit. My children quickly found an excellent state primary school, and after a handful of calls we enjoyed free healthcare, and the right to vote in local elections. The only real bureaucratic hassle we encountered that warm summer concerned a permit to park. It all seemed so smooth compared to earlier moves to the United States, Egypt, Lebanon and Israel/Palestine. Then again, this time we were moving in with our cousins—weren’t we?

    We had arrived as fellow Europeans, but when we left this summer to return to the Netherlands we felt more like foreigners: people tolerated as long as they behave. At best we were “European Union nationals” whose rights would be subject to negotiations—bargaining chips in the eyes of politicians. As we sailed from Harwich, it occurred to me that our departure would be counted by Theresa May as five more strikes towards her goal of “bringing down net immigration to the tens of thousands.”

    The Dutch and the British have a lot in common, at first sight. Sea-faring nations with a long and guilty history of colonial occupation and slavery, they are pro free-trade and have large financial service industries—

    RBS may even move its headquarters to Amsterdam. Both tend to view American power as benign; the Netherlands joined the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. Shell, Unilever and Elsevier are just three examples of remarkably successful Anglo-Dutch joint ventures. I say “remarkably” because I’ve learned that in important respects, there is no culture more alien to the Dutch than the English (I focus on England as I’ve no experience with Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland). Echoing the Calvinist insistence on “being true to oneself,” the Dutch are almost compulsively truthful. Most consider politeness a cowardly form of hypocrisy. Bluntness is a virtue; insincerity and backhandedness are cardinal sins.

    So let me try to be as Dutch as I can, and say that I left the UK feeling disappointed, hurt and immensely worried. We did not leave because of Brexit. My wife and I are both Dutch and we want our children to grow roots in the country where we came of age. We loved our time in London and have all met people who we hope will become our friends for life. But by the time the referendum came, I had become very much in favour of the UK leaving the EU. The worrying conditions that gave rise to the result—the class divide and the class fixation, as well as an unhinged press, combine to produce a national psychology that makes Britain a country you simply don’t want in your club.

    I am terribly sorry for my pro-EU middle-class friends in England, and even more sorry for the poor who had no idea that by supporting Brexit they were voting to become poorer. But this is England’s problem, not the EU’s: the nation urgently needs some time alone to sort itself out. So when those first “Leave” votes came in, I found myself making fist pumps at the television.

    On the morning of 24th June 2016 the middle-class parents at my children’s school were huddling together in shock over the result. One or two were crying quietly when a working-class mother I knew walked up to a well-to-do mother who had been canvassing for Remain. “OUT! OUT! OUT!”, she shouted as she wagged her index finger. Then she walked off in triumph, back to her working-class friends at the other end of the playground.

    Over the years, I had learned she was a warm person, yet on that day something stronger burst out. She had used the referendum to try to smash that expensive middle-class toy called the EU and it had worked. At last, for the first time in decades, those who felt like life’s losers openly defied the winners, and carried an election. Now her country would have £350m a week to spend on the number one worry for people like her: the NHS.

    I’ve seen a good deal in England which suggested that, just maybe, not all was well with the collective psyche—the in-your-face binge drinking, the bookies stoking gambling addiction on every high street, the abject but routine neglect of public housing which went undiscussed until the Grenfell Tower fire.

    But that scene on the morning after the referendum encapsulates my disappointment with the country. Not only the division, but also the way it had been inflamed. Why would you allow a handful of billionaires to poison your national conversation with disinformation—either directly through the tabloids they own, or indirectly, by using those newspapers to intimidate the public broadcaster? Why would you allow them to use their papers to build up and co-opt politicians peddling those lies? Why would you let them get away with this stuff about “foreign judges” and the need to “take back control” when Britain’s own public opinion is routinely manipulated by five or six unaccountable rich white men, themselves either foreigners or foreign-domiciled?

    Before coming to Britain I had always thought that the tabloids were like a misanthropic counterpoint to Monty Python. Like many Europeans, I saw these newspapers as a kind of English folklore, laying it on thick in the way that theatrical British politicians conduct their debates in the House of Commons. Newspapers in the Netherlands would carry on their opinion pages articles by commentators such as Oxford scholar Timothy Garton Ash—giving the impression that such voices represented the mainstream in Britain. Watching QI before coming to the UK, I remember seeing Stephen Fry banter with Jeremy Clarkson and imagining the former was the rule, and the latter the exception. Living in London taught me that it is the other way around. George Orwell is still correct: England is a family with the wrong members in charge.

     

    This has been a bitter pill to swallow for this Smiths fan who grew up in the 1980s on a cultural diet of Tolkien, Le Carré, The Young Ones, Spitting Image and The Singing Detective—these books being available in every library, and the programmes carried by our national broadcaster. I never knew much about French culture and politics, so if I had discovered that these are vile it would have meant travelling a far smaller mental distance. But the English? They were our liberators, a term still used more than 70 years after my mother saw the “Tommies” enter her home town of Eindhoven.

    Until the tabloids are reformed and freed from editorial interference by their plutocratic owners, the rageful misunderstanding that I saw in the school playground will not go away. Tabloid readers will sometimes see through the bias on particular issues and against particular people, as many did when they voted for the demonised Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn in June. But when it comes to Europe and the world beyond, the campaign of chauvinism has been so unremitting, over so many decades, that it is much harder to resist. And as things stand, the journalists at those publications could never come out and admit that they have misjudged Brexit—that would mean not only losing face, but very likely losing their job. Indeed, where is the investigative reporting about the exact quid pro quo when Rupert Murdoch or Daily Mail editor Paul Dacre come out in support of, say, Theresa May? Most British journalists, with a few noble exceptions, are too terrified of the press barons to pursue such questions.

    That scene at my children’s school last year showed up another side of English society: entrenched inequality. In the Netherlands, schools are not ranked, and nor are universities. Sought after secondary schools and universities use a lottery to decide who is admitted—the opposite of the generally hyper-competitive and market-based English model. (There have been experiments with school lotteries in England, but these have run into outrage because of the perception that giving every child an equal chance is—in some unspecified way—profoundly unfair.)

    You could, if you’ve been as frustrated by the Dutch educational system as I was, characterise it as institutionalised mediocrity. But the good thing about it is that it really doesn’t matter for your identity or your prospects exactly which school or university you went to—not in the way it does in England. Dutch people are unfamiliar with that English ritual where two highly educated people try to work out which one has the edge: state school or private? Oxford, Cambridge, or some other place? If Oxbridge, what college?

    I have seen plenty of English middle-class parents jump through crazy hoops to get their children into the “right” school. I have seen friendships ripped apart when one couple sends their daughter to a private school and the others do not. I was not surprised to read that Jeremy Corbyn’s second marriage collapsed over the question of whether to send his son to a selective school.

    It is quite ironic that a nation that gave the world the term “fair play” sees the fact that rich children receive a better education than poor ones as a perfectly natural thing. I remember asking around at the Guardian, where I had been hired to investigate the City of London, why this progressive newspaper did not put the school system centre stage. This is how the elites clone themselves, is it not? The answer: most of our management and prominent writers went to private school themselves and most are sending their children there, too, so that would invite the charge of hypocrisy. I struggle to blame those former Guardian colleagues knowing that two thirds of all top jobs in England today go to the 7 per cent of children who have attended private schools. Are you really going to sacrifice your child’s prospects to make an individual stand which will change nothing?

    Nor do I blame working-class people for seething at a system where by the time you are 11 the die is cast, and where—to add insult to injury—you are constantly told that this is a meritocracy where all that counts is hard work and being “aspirational” (a word that does not even exist in Dutch). And one in which you hear everyone talk about “public schools.” That is like calling a taxi a form of “public transport” or indeed, naming dilapidated zones of social housing “estates.” (Seriously, middle-class Englanders, how will you ever straighten yourselves out if you can’t even say what you mean, and mean what you say?)

    If I were English and working class, the loaded dice and the accompanying cant would make me very bitter—a bitterness that was cleverly harvested by the “Leave” camp. Yes, there were factors beside class that bore on the vote: voters in London and Scotland broke for “Remain,” and pensioners broke for “Leave.” But class was central: the connection between voting “Leave” and having finished education early was just as strong as the endlessly-discussed age dimension. And the same bitterness will, surely, be harnessed again until the root cause is addressed.

    There is another, final, side to this class system à l’Anglaise. It seems to breed a perspective on the world that is zero-sum. Your class system is a form of ranking. For one to go up, another must go down. Perhaps this is why sports are such an obsession. There, too, only one can win. It was striking for this Dutchman to see an innocuous school dance be concluded with the designation of a winner. The result: all the other eight-year-olds went home slightly or clearly annoyed for not having won. Why not just let them dance? There seems to be in English culture—with its adversarial courtrooms, and its parliamentary front benches two swords’ length apart—an almost reflexive need to compete, to conclude a process by declaring a winner. The expectation that English children will learn to put a brave face on the hurt of losing doubtless deepens the scars.

    The English consequently struggle to understand the “one plus one is three” concept of co-operation so fundamental to the EU. The word “compromise” has an almost negative ring in English popular culture; the idea gets dismissed as “fudge,” rather than a worthwhile outcome that can help everyone save face.

    Could there be a causal relation between English hostility to the EU and this wider adversarial culture? Does it make English soil especially fertile for those press barons to plant their seeds of slander? I began to wonder about when this hostility began to hurt. I was surprised by this feeling since, until then, I had never given much the European side of my identity much thought. I have often heard Muslim friends say that it was only the attacks of 9/11 that had made them Muslim. Suddenly everybody regarded them as Muslims and so over time, they began to feel as such. Something similar happened to me when the EU referendum campaign started.

    I began to realise that there are powerful people in England who actively want the EU destroyed. They are full of aggressive contempt for everything the Union stands for. Even David Cameron could not bring himself to go to Oslo with other EU leaders to receive the 2012 Nobel Peace Prize. Given the deep competitiveness of the English, it may be that they need the EU to feel superior; we may have lost the empire and be less than 1 per cent of the world’s population but… at least we’re not “Yurup.

    This attitude then justifies the enduring ignorance about the EU, its member states and European culture generally. “We don’t even know who they are,” shrieked Brexiter Andrea Leadsom during a televised debate about the EU’s so-called five presidents. You could tell she thought this was a really good argument to use: we don’t know who they are, so that must be their fault.

    The superiority complex feeds a sense of entitlement, which Cameron played to by demanding “concessions.” The word says it all. Apparently membership is a favour of the English people to the EU and in exchange there must be rebates, opt-outs and special status. Every “Remain” as well as “Leave” supporter that I have spoken to automatically assumed I would be against Brexit.

    Consider that Brexiteer line—the EU “needs us more than vice versa.” It’s abject nonsense, as was the presumption that after the Brits voted to leave, other EU countries would follow.

    In October last year Peter Foster, who is the Europe Editor and an increasingly-rare measured voice on the Daily Telegraph, wrote an article calling on Theresa May to “accept publicly that the European side has as much right to guard their interests as the UK does.” He then continued that, “It might also be worth acknowledging, that, on balance, the EU27 also has more power to protect its interests in these negotiations than Britain does.”

    Just imagine the French centre-right newspaper Le Figaro or its German equivalent Die Welt publishing an opinion piece pleading with its readers to understand that “the British people have national interests, too.” The thought would never occur. That is the difference between England on the one hand and serious European countries on the other.

    This, then, was how, for the first time in my life, I began to feel European. Though no pro-EU federalist, I was suddenly being defensive over something I had never actively supported. In fact, I think there are good reasons for the Netherlands to leave the EU, just as there are good reasons to stay. The EU is a dilemma full of trade-offs. But what I do think is that if the EU is to become truly democratic it needs to conduct an honest and open debate about what it wants to be, and then build the structures to go with it. An existential debate of that kind followed by either dismantling or reinvention requires good faith. This is almost entirely missing from the English side where “Remain,” too, campaigned on the promise that the UK could veto any further integration. Hence my support for Brexit.

    Ever since the referendum, friends from across the world have been enquiring whether it is true that the British have gone mad. Without those six years in London, I would have unhesitatingly said “yes.” “A temporary bout of insanity” still seems the preferred explanation in much of Europe and among many British Remainers. But years of immersion in English culture and society have convinced me that actually, the Brexit vote should instead be seen as the logical and overdue outcome of a set of English pathologies.

    Which brings me to my real anxiety. It is extremely difficult to see a scenario in which this whole Brexit saga could end well.

    The Tories are seared by Europe, as they have been for a generation, only now with more intensity; Labour looks incapable of overcoming its own divisions on the question. Neither party dares to speak the truth to millions of people who have voted for a “have your cake and eat it” option that was never on the menu. How to carry out the will of the majority when the majority voted for something that does not exist?

    Legally, politically and logically the EU cannot give the UK the kind of deal that would draw this chapter to a happy close. Britain will pay a horrible price for a hard Brexit. The alternative should be a sweet soft deal, except that this will then encourage every EU member state to demand their own special arrangement, and that would be the end of the EU. The fact that even Remainers keep exhorting the EU “not to punish us” demonstrates just how incapable the English are of reckoning with anyone else’s point of view.

    The one real alternative is that Britain reverses course, gets on its knees, and begs to be let back in. This could be the most dangerous outcome of all. While the imagination of many “Leave” voters remain in the grip of the tabloids, any concession to the reality of national interests risks inflaming rage and cries of betrayal. As for the EU, it is first and foremost a rule-based organisation. If the rules around Article 50 were bent to allow Britain back in on special terms, then the whole edifice is undermined. Scotland should be let in if it wants, and Northern Ireland too. But England is out and must be kept out—at least until it has resolved its deep internal problems. Call it nation building.

     

     

    Edited by Slean Wolfhead
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    And a really good reply to that article .

    Quote

    As a European first, British second, and English last, I agree with almost all you say.

    Earlier today, I wrote the following, as part of a longer piece:

    "Humans instinctively look for patterns, everywhere. No doubt, this is linked to the survival instinct. Observing patterns helps with predictive powers. For all of us, the future is open and uncertain. But understanding the odds, and reading the game well, provides an edge. An edge can make all the difference.Before the referendum, I knew it could go either way. And still the outcome was completely unexpected.

    Not for the first time, the mind was way ahead of the heart. For some time before the referendum, and certainly after it, there has been a seismic shift in our nation. A slipping of social and political tectonic plates. A sharpening of weapons. A hardening of attitudes. An alignment of wholly different philosophies across a fault line in the fabric of society. A temporary suspension of ancient hostilities between right and left. To make way for the birth of new and more intensive hostilities between Leavers and Remainers.

    A broken economic model, an ever growing inequality between the rich and the poor, those who are comfortable and those fighting the poverty line, have given impetus to protest. And rightly and inevitably so.The problem now is that the common good has been lost in the pointless trading of abuse and insult.

    The trivialisation of matters of national and international importance lend a kind of surreal quality to what are real questions requiring real solutions. All the old certainties about Britain, its general pragmatism and tolerance, its inclusiveness and diversity, its compromise and common sense, are gone.

    We are now engaged in a bitter civil war of ideology. Words and hearts and minds. The people who won are so angry, sometimes because they have been losing for so long, and they are very dismissive of the people who lost.

    Slowly, inexorably, the people who lost are striking back at the people who won. Be very clear: this is a war, the chaotic state of being that the European project was designed to prevent. It is often said that the pitch of the battle is between the reason of the Remainers, and the emotion of the Leavers. But that simply isn’t true. After the referendum, like so many others, I was inconsolable. I grieved. And still I grieve. This is not the product of reason, but emotion. Remainers plead reason, but bleed emotion.

    The tragedy lies in shared values loved and lost, connections cherished and broken, good things cast aside, a whole way of life and internationalism rejected and discarded. A project that has secured peace and prosperity for so many people, for so long. Something noble, intrinsically worthwhile, bringing nations together, despite their immense differences. A great vision never fully realised. Imperfect, but like democracy, so much better than all of the alternatives. "

    Something is coming to England which will drive change. It cannot remain as it is. It needs to find positive values, and build a better, more socially and economically just society. Right now, England is in the wilderness.I wish you health and happiness in your homeland.

     

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    12 hours ago, Rallyman said:

    I find this info a bit strange was listening to the business report on abc this morning and the reports they were quoting was everything was on the up , construction grew , manufacturing , banking so what can you actually believe , 

     

    Brexit Britain plummets into economic growth slow lane as even Italy overtakes UK in latest forecast

    Brexit-hit Britain is moving into the economic slow lane, falling behind even Italy, according to an authoritative new report today.

    The UK’s economy will limp ahead by one per cent next year, predicted the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, down from 1.8 per cent in 2016.

    This would be the most sluggish growth of the G7 group of major economies which include the US, Japan, Germany, France, Italy and Canada.

     

    Even Italy, in the grip of a banking crisis, blighted by high youth unemployment and dogged by a chaotic political system, is now forecast to grow more strongly than Britain.

    OECD chief economist Catherine Mann stressed: “Brexit will represent a serious (economic) shock.”

    The grim report came as:

     
    • A new Ipsos MORI poll for The Standard showed 52 per cent of people in the UK expect economic conditions to get worse over the next year, with just 21 per cent believing they will improve.

    • European agriculture commissioner Phil Hogan took a swipe at Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson branding him as “completely out of the loop” on Brexit and a “diminished figure” in the Government.

    • Official figures showed store prices rising sharply in August, with non-food stores and non-store retailing recording their highest year-on-year price growth for more than 25 years, at 3.2 per cent and 3.3 per cent respectively.

    • With inflation at 2.9 per cent outstripping many wage rises, millions of households across the UK are being hit by the longest squeeze on living standards for three years.

    • However, Sterling rose this morning following better than expected volume retail figures, with the quantity bought in the retail sales industry rising by 2.4 per cent, compared to a year ago, the 52nd consecutive month of year-on-year growth.

    • Economists say the retail sales figures may well have been boosted by the slump in the Pound following the Brexit vote leading to more Britons holidaying in the UK this summer and more foreign tourists.

    • But they warned that the Bank of England could start raising interest rates in November from their historic low of 0.25 per cent.

    • Keeping the public sector pay cap could lead to recruitment shortages in London and the South East, the Institute for Fiscal Studies warned.

    In an interim report today, the OECD left its June forecast for the UK economy for 2018 unchanged but it dramatically revised up its prediction for Italy by 0.4 per cent to 1.2 per cent.

    It also nudged up its expectations for the German and French economies by 0.1 per cent to 2.1 per cent and 1.6 per cent respectively.

    Economic worries: the City of London is expected to be hit by Brexit (Glenn Copus)

    This means that the eurozone - which has lagged behind Britain - is now forecast to enjoy buoyant growth at 1.9 per cent next year - nearly double the UK’s rate.

    “In the United Kingdom, GDP growth has continued to slow with an easing of consumption and investment growth,” said the OECD.

    “A further slowing is expected in 2018, while uncertainty remains over the outcome of negotiations around Brexit.”

    The Paris-based economic experts highlighted that the unemployment rate had fallen to below 4.5 per cent in the UK but stressed that weak productivity and real wage growth persist.

    “The depreciation of the sterling has modestly improved export prospects but also pushed up inflation, dampening purchasing power and private consumption,” it added.

    Conservative MP Nicky Morgan, chairwoman of the Commons Treasury committee, stressed: “We have been hearing for some time that business investment has been slowing down and today’s OECD report bears that out and crystallises the fears that many of us had about Brexit dragging down our economy.”

    Sir Vince Cable on Brexit

    Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable added: “Brexit is set to turn Britain into the sick man of Europe again.”

    Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell urged the Government to change course on the economy and highlighted the OECD warning that the UK is still at risk of a bubble in the housing market.

    But former Cabinet minister and Brexiter John Redwood believes the one per cent forecast for the UK next year “seems a bit low”.

    He added: “We know that these people have got their forecasts comprehensively wrong immediately after Brexit.”

    A Treasury spokesman said: “Our economy has grown continuously for four years and a record number of people are in work.

    “This is a strong record but we are not complacent. We must continue our focus on restoring productivity growth which is the only sustainable way to deliver higher wages and higher living standards for people across the country.”

    More about: | Brexit | United Kingdom | Britain | Italy | UK
     
     
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    Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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    The OECD changes it forecasts, I mean guesses more than Melbourne weather. 

    As it says in PBs link  “We know that these people have got their forecasts comprehensively wrong immediately after Brexit.” 

     


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    2 minutes ago, bristolman said:

    The OECD changes it forecasts, I mean guesses more than Melbourne weather. 

    As it says in PBs link  “We know that these people have got their forecasts comprehensively wrong immediately after Brexit.” 

     

    immediately under that it says a Treasury spokesman saying:

    Quote

    We must continue our focus on restoring productivity growth which is the only sustainable way to deliver higher wages and higher living standards for people across the country.”

    We're currently 15-16% less productive than European counterparts under the same rules, how do you see this improving under tougher conditions, how will you manage it ?

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    2 minutes ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

    immediately under that it says a Treasury spokesman saying:

    We're currently 15-16% less productive than European counterparts under the same rules, how do you see this improving under tougher conditions, how will you manage it ?

    How will I manage it, me personally ? 


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    1 hour ago, bunbury61 said:

    sky poll - just on the news

    74% say " no deal is better than a bad deal "with the e.u

    Might as well have a poll asking if a poke in the right eye is better than a poke in the left eye..  Equally bad options so if 74% chose the left eye it does not necessarily mean that the majority consider they have less need of a left eye.


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    It's just that the IMF have also singled out Britain as a "notable exception" to world economic growth forecasts with a widening trade deficit.   

    You can see the reason is a lack of productivity, but as you imply above...these forecasts have been wrong before so you must be implying that a more productive future could be on the horizon to bridge the economic deficit, otherwise you would not have commented 

    So how is this happening? 

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    For whatever reason productivity is falling right around the world, from Europe to the US, Australia, UK and most countries inbetween. There seems to be no answer to why this is happening.

    five-year-average-growth-in-productivity-based-on-oecd-data.png


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    1 hour ago, Slean Wolfhead said:

    This is a great article from a pro-Brexiter, worth digesting if you can.  It reflects a lot of the emotion, reasoning (or lack thereof) on this thread.  Sometimes inevitability just rules and just deserts are due.

    It's worth quoting in full.

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/how-i-learnt-to-loathe-england

     

     

    The English are insular by nature and this article brings that home.  Europe and Europeans overall will be better off without the English in the long run, sad to say.  The Euro strengthened following Brexit but still most are in denial saying that the hard Brexit will damage the EU as much as the UK.

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    1 hour ago, bristolman said:

    For whatever reason productivity is falling right around the world, from Europe to the US, Australia, UK and most countries inbetween. There seems to be no answer to why this is happening.

     

    That is up to 2014, we're now bottom.

    This is a House of Commons Briefing paper entitled "Productivity in the UK"  from September 20th 2017.

    Page 17, Section 6.2 makes interesting reading.  It gives you some answers and some indicators.

    Quote

    For the reasons explained above, this would most likely lower the UK’s long-term productivity and growth rates compared to a scenario where the UK had stayed in the EU

    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjzr8nRyOnWAhXqilQKHf5YDUAQFghRMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fresearchbriefings.files.parliament.uk%2Fdocuments%2FSN06492%2FSN06492.pdf&usg=AOvVaw02gvxiaSCW527faHZMZPkG

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    On 10/05/2017 at 10:35, Johndoe said:

     More importantly..........Will it mean a great British comeback for the sausage now that they can start putting sawdust back in? :-)

    hope not, will remind me of aussie snags.

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    Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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    1 hour ago, Perthbum said:

    hope not, will remind me of aussie snags.

    My husband who's Australian agrees with you.  Says a lot of the supermarket ones are awful.  He's found a good butcher who makes ones he likes though.  Me, I never eat them.  Never ate them in the UK either so I can't compare.  ^_^

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    54 minutes ago, Toots said:

    My husband who's Australian agrees with you.  Says a lot of the supermarket ones are awful.  He's found a good butcher who makes ones he likes though.  Me, I never eat them.  Never ate them in the UK either so I can't compare.  ^_^

    Better still. If must eat sausages, eat German ones. A country that knows about such things.

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    2 minutes ago, Pura Vida said:

    Better still. If must eat sausages, eat German ones. A country that knows about such things.

    :laugh:

    I used to go to Germany often when I was working in Switzerland.  I've never seen so many sausages of all sizes.  Big meat eaters the Germans.  Had great fun there though - far more life about it than Switzerland.

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    10 hours ago, Rallyman said:

    All in all it's a very large amount of business that the German car manufacturers are not going to simply be told by the likes of junker you can't do business because the uk is no longer a member of the eu 

    BMW are well placed to get around all the WTO tariff issues. They'll ship part finished Minis from the UK to Germany for 1,000 Euros each as car components. Attach the headlights and declare them as EU manufactured and so tariff exempt, while at the same time shipping part finished BMWs from Germany to the UK for 1,500 Euros each (price adjusted for the fact that less BMWs are imported than Minis are exported) as car components. Attach the headlights and declare them as UK manufactured and so tariff exempt.

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    Chartered Accountant (England & Wales); Registered Tax Agent & Fellow of The Tax Institute (Australia)

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    2 hours ago, Ken said:

    BMW are well placed to get around all the WTO tariff issues. They'll ship part finished Minis from the UK to Germany for 1,000 Euros each as car components. Attach the headlights and declare them as EU manufactured and so tariff exempt, while at the same time shipping part finished BMWs from Germany to the UK for 1,500 Euros each (price adjusted for the fact that less BMWs are imported than Minis are exported) as car components. Attach the headlights and declare them as UK manufactured and so tariff exempt.

    If life was only this easy 

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    2 hours ago, Ken said:

    BMW are well placed to get around all the WTO tariff issues. They'll ship part finished Minis from the UK to Germany for 1,000 Euros each as car components. Attach the headlights and declare them as EU manufactured and so tariff exempt, while at the same time shipping part finished BMWs from Germany to the UK for 1,500 Euros each (price adjusted for the fact that less BMWs are imported than Minis are exported) as car components. Attach the headlights and declare them as UK manufactured and so tariff exempt.

    xD


    Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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    7 hours ago, Toots said:

    :laugh:

    I used to go to Germany often when I was working in Switzerland.  I've never seen so many sausages of all sizes.  Big meat eaters the Germans.  Had great fun there though - far more life about it than Switzerland.

    The trick is to live in Germany and work in Switzerland.  A simple drive every day, especially if not far from the border and far more cost effective. More Germans are going vege these days though. I know lots whom never touch meat. French are rather big meat consumers though. Definitely more fun in Germany.

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    1 hour ago, Rallyman said:

    If life was only this easy 

    That's how Alan Sugar built Amstrad computers, and he had to get around British rules of place of manufacture.  All made and assembled abroad but imported in 2 parts.  The Brits soldered them together, stuck a Union Jack sticker on and said they were made in Britain.

    Spain put an import tax on computers containing less than 64Kb of RAM (designed to kill Amstrad in Spain), so Sugar had an extra 8kb chip soldered on the side, not even connected to the machine.

    Edited by Slean Wolfhead

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    5 hours ago, bristolman said:

    Interesting.....though produced by a think tank who are avowedly pro-single market.  The numbers quoted sound very extreme.  Whilst a 10% tariff cannot be good the German car exporters have survived a near 20% fall in the value of sterling already.

    The UK consumer will face significantly higher prices on new cars whatever their origin.  Even UK manufacturers will be dealing with the effect of the devalued pound and import tariffs on components.  They will benefit on exports but domestically cars will have to cost more.


    Timeline: 309/100 Sent 7/8/13, Money Taken 9/8/13, CO appointed 3/9/13. Med 3/12/13. Police check 4/12/13. VISA GRANTED 8/4/14, Subclass100. Recce August 2014. Arrived 30 July 2015.

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    6 hours ago, bristolman said:

    Very interesting , basically what has been said by a few on here , German car industrie need it sorting they can not afford to lose the uk market , the loss of 18,000 jobs , I experienced nearly double that when the local steel works closed back in 79 in one area , it has never fully recovered 

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