BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Oh FFS not everyone thinks Brexit is a bad thing, stop lumping Trump and Brexit together as if they have anything at all in common because they very clearly dont. Well if you cannot see the connection then I suppose the world has little hope of avoiding the abyss it is stumbling towards if the majority are seeing it the same as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Oh FFS not everyone thinks Brexit is a bad thing, stop lumping Trump and Brexit together as if they have anything at all in common because they very clearly dont. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance", Thomas Jefferson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunbury61 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Well if you cannot see the connection then I suppose the world has little hope of avoiding the abyss it is stumbling towards if the majority are seeing it the same as you. The abyss that you are worried about ,we are stumbling towards it anyway . Brexit and trump are just a symptom.of it . When did it start ? The ayatollah going back to Iran in 1979 ? The berlin wall coming down The 1st and 2 ND gulf wars ? The twin towers The Sunni / Shia factions in conflict Who knows ,but rest assured ,it started well before Donald trump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinbjulieb Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 This thread is getting way off topic!!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I agree with some, though when I was job hunting earlier this year I was very interested in working in the NFP area, but specifically not in the SE as we found living there far too expensive and there was a lot available. As for the economy, this is a global thing and is the reason we have just witnessed the USA election result. Globalisation does not benefit people. In fact, its ultimate premise is not to benefit people. The very principle behind globalization is that companies can move to areas to exploit cheaper labour and then sell the result of the business back to the more wealthy areas. It is capitalism in its ultimate end. The result for people in developed economies is that they can not compete in labour costs and so there begins the downward spiral that we are now seeing everywhere. The steel worker in the UK can not provide labour for the same price as the steel worker in China or India, so the manufacturer moves the business there. The result is the UK worker no longer has work. Until not, this has excluded the service industry and the principle was that those no longer able to work in their old industry would move to the new service industry. But now, we are seeing this moving as well. The end result will be massive across the board loss of all industry and living standards reduced to the point where they are then again able to compete. In other words, its principle is to drive wage and living standards ever lower. Hence, in the USA, the biggest growth in jobs in the last 8 years has been for minimum wage jobs or gig economy and hence why we have seen the result we have. This is one of the key reasons I voted to leave the EU as the EU is the flag bearer of this system. It takes in new countries that have very cheap labour and costs, manufacturers move their from the more expensive countries and sell their product back to the original more wealthy country. The manufacturer increases profit. The small number of people who own the shares profit. The politicians profit. But, the man who has lost his job doesn't. This has been occurring on a major scale with companies such as Ford Transit, Gillette, Cadbury and others closing their UK bases, moving to eastern EU and then bring the product back to sell in the UK. It is the same as the USA has seen with Mexico and its car industry. A free trade deal was signed, so, the car industry moved to Mexico to exploit cheap labour and then brings the result back across the border to sell in the USA. The company has a major win as it has cut costs significantly but maintains its market and price of goods, so increases profit. But Detroit is laid barren and is sacrificed to the great god of profit. We have seen lots of talk of trade deals and what deal the UK should try to get with the EU. But the best outcome for the people is no trade deal. They never benefit the wealthier country. Yes, it means companies in the UK can export easier and people say that helps jobs. But it doesn't. Because it means that companies outside that can out compete can import easier and so eventually put the domestic company out of business. I remember the emergence of Asian goods. At first they were classed as crap and inferior. But eventually they became the dominant as they simply out competed the other brands. Australia is now seeing it with its car industry. They are packing up and moving to places where they can maker them cheaper. Then will sell them back to Australia. The car company wins, but the workers in Australia lose. Just as an aside, which car manufacturers has actually moved to Mexico because Trump recently claimed Ford was about to do that but had put the plan on hold, Ford CEO denied that there had ever been a plan to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Oh FFS not everyone thinks Brexit is a bad thing, stop lumping Trump and Brexit together as if they have anything at all in common because they very clearly dont. I thought VS , who I believe is on your wavelength, made the connection very clear at post 114. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolman Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 No VS did not say Brexit was a bad thing. Just because you think it's bad doesn't make it so. Let's face it none of your doom and gloom is proving to be true so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 No VS did not say Brexit was a bad thing. Just because you think it's bad doesn't make it so. Let's face it none of your doom and gloom is proving to be true so far. I thought you said don't confuse Trump and brexit and I pointed out that VS had done this quite nicely with his post. I can't help it if you cannot see where the election of a far right nationalist with racist views who cannot bear to ever be wrong might be taking us and the predilection of at least one posturing brexiteer to fawn over him in exactly the same way that Mussolini did over Hitler, if that is not enough to get you worried I don't know what will, or is that you see the rise of nationalism and the far right as desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolman Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I thought you said don't confuse Trump and brexit and I pointed out that VS had done this quite nicely with his post. I can't help it if you cannot see where the election of a far right nationalist with racist views who cannot bear to ever be wrong might be taking us and the predilection of at least one posturing brexiteer to fawn over him in exactly the same way that Mussolini did over Hitler, if that is not enough to get you worried I don't know what will, or is that you see the rise of nationalism and the far right as desirable. It really is impossible to talk to you, you twist things to suit your own weird agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 It really is impossible to talk to you, you twist things to suit your own weird agenda. No I'm just consistent in my thinking and try to use what has happened before as a way of understanding where we might end up in this post truth era with politicians who have no ethics or principles beyond their own aggrandisment and disregard for the little people who they ruthlessly exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolman Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Oh you are definitely consistent, I can't argue with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 It really is impossible to talk to you, you twist things to suit your own weird agenda. I really cannot see what is weird with my line of thinking, it does at least draw on some factual connections whereas yours seems to rely on an assertion that all things happen for the best and it will all be alright regardless once "we take back control of our country " a statement which seems to be the height of intellectual vacuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 The similarity between Brexit and Trump is obvious but subtle. The similarity is that people are dissatisfied with the political elite. An elite that has failed them and an elite that will continue to fail then. People now recognise the globalisation is bad and only serves the elite and for everyone else is serverly detrimental. The EU is globalisation personified and Trump is willing to tear up trade agreements that have caused misery to millions. In in that respect the two have a big similarity, as has other political moves such as Bulgaria and Moldova. The similarity is people are willing to vote against expectation in order to change the norm. The norm means a downward spiral of decreasing living standards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 The similarity between Brexit and Trump is obvious but subtle. The similarity is that people are dissatisfied with the political elite. An elite that has failed them and an elite that will continue to fail then. People now recognise the globalisation is bad and only serves the elite and for everyone else is serverly detrimental. The EU is globalisation personified and Trump is willing to tear up trade agreements that have caused misery to millions. In in that respect the two have a big similarity, as has other political moves such as Bulgaria and Moldova. The similarity is people are willing to vote against expectation in order to change the norm. The norm means a downward spiral of decreasing living standards As I have said I can see the rationale for your argument but the people who are peddling this as a solution are populists suggesting simple solutions to complex issues and they are extremely illiberal with a real tendency to authoritarianism, so I have a real fear that their solutions are going to be even worse than what we have at the moment and their changes and so called solutions will not be able to be rowed back from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 As I have said I can see the rationale for your argument but the people who are peddling this as a solution are populists suggesting simple solutions to complex issues and they are extremely illiberal with a real tendency to authoritarianism, so I have a real fear that their solutions are going to be even worse than what we have at the moment and their changes and so called solutions will not be able to be rowed back from. Oh, I agree. But the public have been abandoned by the political elite. What else can they do. This has not played out yet by any stretch. The anti EU / nationist is a good thing. It plays out as ending the vile globalisation. The problem will occur when elite politicians water it down. Then the people will be faced with harder choices. They have not grasped the reasons people voted Brexit. At its base, it may be anti immigrant, and that has true merit as I have written before. But, the root cause, even with strong migration policy won't cure it. So, some one will offer them what is needed. The problem is what else that person demands and what else the people will accept. I fear the political elite will offer nothing as the status qou is in their interest. At the same time, I fear the people will be increasingly likely to accept anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Oh, I agree. But the public have been abandoned by the political elite. What else can they do. This has not played out yet by any stretch. The anti EU / nationist is a good thing. It plays out as ending the vile globalisation. The problem will occur when elite politicians water it down. Then the people will be faced with harder choices. They have not grasped the reasons people voted Brexit. At its base, it may be anti immigrant, and that has true merit as I have written before. But, the root cause, even with strong migration policy won't cure it. So, some one will offer them what is needed. The problem is what else that person demands and what else the people will accept. I fear the political elite will offer nothing as the status qou is in their interest. At the same time, I fear the people will be increasingly likely to accept anything. That sounds troubling, it sounds like you accept that there will be unrest unless the people get what they have been promised by the populists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flag of convenience Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 It cant be any worse .Fast track yourself in western Australia in 30 years ?. Globalisation is having the working man over ,big time . Minimum wage ,zero hours contracts ,they don't care who does the work . What is happening to hard fought ,wages,terms and conditions ? Lets take a gamble on brexit and on trump . If trump is rubbish he will be voted out anyway ....we may be surprised.... The u.s is a big ship to turn around ,but he will have a go . Made in America ...made in Australia ...made in the u.k ...might be visible once again And I stand by what I said about Hillary Clinton ,she's up to het neck in it . 25 million dollars from the Saudis ,and further millions from Qatar helped fund her campaign . These Saudis were mocking trump on twitter ,when they thought Hillary was a shoe in ,they ain't laughing now I have no doubt many aren't laughing now and time will tell to what degree his distractors are right. The signs are not good though. The sort of people he is surrounding himself by and will influence outcomes in the future. I suspect he will not take on big capital and will be a big let down to the blue collar worker, as he is not far removed from the very exploitative class, not far indeed, that he appears in part to rally against. There has been no indication just how the infrastructure will be paid for, especially after corporate tax cuts. I understand people respect strength in a leader, but just how far with authoritarian politics will be accepted I wonder before the country explodes. It would be a shame beyond belief if a lot of the laws safe guarding tolerance and rights are discarded for something far more sinister in policy. It might well make one think about the value of democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolman Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 I really cannot see what is weird with my line of thinking, it does at least draw on some factual connections whereas yours seems to rely on an assertion that all things happen for the best and it will all be alright regardless once "we take back control of our country " a statement which seems to be the height of intellectual vacuity. Facts like all car manufacturers will pull out of the UK and none will consider investing, those sort of facts you mean ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolman Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 The similarity between Brexit and Trump is obvious but subtle. The similarity is that people are dissatisfied with the political elite. An elite that has failed them and an elite that will continue to fail then. People now recognise the globalisation is bad and only serves the elite and for everyone else is serverly detrimental. The EU is globalisation personified and Trump is willing to tear up trade agreements that have caused misery to millions. In in that respect the two have a big similarity, as has other political moves such as Bulgaria and Moldova. The similarity is people are willing to vote against expectation in order to change the norm. The norm means a downward spiral of decreasing living standards Ah yes I agree with this totally, it was the belief that Brexit, like Trumps election, was a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petal38 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 So to get this thread back on topic, i thought it would be of interest to add my perspective on why we emigrated to Oz (Melbourne) from the UK (Newcastle, North East) a month ago .... and without entering into any Oz or UK bashing, as i have always felt that whichever way you are going, it is a momentous decision, and involves a range of different dynamics for us all. First off, it's taken us over 4 years to get out here on our PR visas, as despite being in our late 30s, we have sadly lost 3 parents between us in that time. So for us, we now have far less family ties in the UK compared to a lot of people, who I can understand feel this pull, and to an extent guilt, when their nearest and dearest are ageing and ailing. Leaving my mum in the UK was the hardest part of deciding to make this move, but both with busy lives and living nearly 3 hours apart, in reality we saw each other about 5/6 weekends a year, plus i have 2 brothers who lives nearby to her. Luckily she is in good health and coming over to visit end of Jan for a month or so! I will also miss my friends hugely as have lived in Newcastle 25 years now, but although we saw a lot more of each other in the month or so before I left, the fact remains we didn't usually see each other anything like that often as all busy working mums. I hardly see my friends from University anymore, but despite this, when i do it's as if i saw them yesterday, and i truly believe that is how it will be with my post-Uni friends. Luckily i have several good friends who have emigrated to other parts of Oz over the last few years, so will probably see more of them now. I was also made redundant 5 years ago from a great job (the whole organisation was closed down by the Tories), and have only been able to pick up fixed term or maternity type cover contracts since - some of which were quite a big step backwards which has been quite depressing and sickening. There was quite simply nothing particularly good coming up in the North East which is a limited job market in many areas, and many of my colleagues the last few years have been in a similar position. Unless i was prepared to go down the 'work in London or Brussels Mon-Fri' route, i was stuck career wise, and wasn't prepared to live that existence and be away from my husband. My husband also found the job market precarious and he's an experienced IT developer programmer - we're both Masters degree educated and experienced in our respective fields. But the worst of it employment wise for us in the part of the UK we lived, is 2 months after we had our first baby, his contract at that time ended (2 years ago now), and nothing decent was coming up (which was a very stressful situation to be in - especially as i'd lost any decent maternity pay with being made redundant), and he ended up taking a role in Germany - it was either there or London - and we figured Germany would be cheaper, safer and take no longer for him to get home at weekends from. We are currently expecting our second baby early next year. Luckily we sold our house in Newcastle earlier this year for more than we thought we would and thanks to the Brexit effect on the £, are keeping the money in the UK until the exchange rate improves and we find our feet over here. Within 2 weeks of arriving in Melbourne, and following second interveiws, my husband was offered 3 really good jobs - all paying around $150k pa mark and permanent contracts - with a 17% employer pension contribution which is virtually unheard of in the UK. For us that means a lot as we haven't had any job security in the UK in over 5 years. There are a huge range of options for me over here in the job market too, and when i come to return to work in a year or so, i'm confident it can't be any tougher than trying to find decent work in the North East has been. We both loved the North East, and it's a great place to live, IF you can find a decent job. In our fields that is difficult ..... and not that we are career obsessed ..... but not being able to find work is both stressful and impacts greatly on your day to day life - fact. I appreciate we are very new to Oz, and may feel like some of you do in a few years time, and want to return to the UK. But there is every chance we will want to stay in Oz too, and we're both enjoying everything it is offering us at this stage in our life. We're due to move into a lovely rental home in a coastal suburb 30 mins from the Melbourne CBD, have our son booked into kindy, are all registered with our local hospital for baby no2 arrival, and have already met some lovely people in our new suburb - both Australian and fellow UK immigrants. This is just our story, but our gut feeling is this has been a good move for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 So to get this thread back on topic, i thought it would be of interest to add my perspective on why we emigrated to Oz (Melbourne) from the UK (Newcastle, North East) a month ago .... and without entering into any Oz or UK bashing, as i have always felt that whichever way you are going, it is a momentous decision, and involves a range of different dynamics for us all. First off, it's taken us over 4 years to get out here on our PR visas, as despite being in our late 30s, we have sadly lost 3 parents between us in that time. So for us, we now have far less family ties in the UK compared to a lot of people, who I can understand feel this pull, and to an extent guilt, when their nearest and dearest are ageing and ailing. Leaving my mum in the UK was the hardest part of deciding to make this move, but both with busy lives and living nearly 3 hours apart, in reality we saw each other about 5/6 weekends a year, plus i have 2 brothers who lives nearby to her. Luckily she is in good health and coming over to visit end of Jan for a month or so! I will also miss my friends hugely as have lived in Newcastle 25 years now, but although we saw a lot more of each other in the month or so before I left, the fact remains we didn't usually see each other anything like that often as all busy working mums. I hardly see my friends from University anymore, but despite this, when i do it's as if i saw them yesterday, and i truly believe that is how it will be with my post-Uni friends. Luckily i have several good friends who have emigrated to other parts of Oz over the last few years, so will probably see more of them now. I was also made redundant 5 years ago from a great job (the whole organisation was closed down by the Tories), and have only been able to pick up fixed term or maternity type cover contracts since - some of which were quite a big step backwards which has been quite depressing and sickening. There was quite simply nothing particularly good coming up in the North East which is a limited job market in many areas, and many of my colleagues the last few years have been in a similar position. Unless i was prepared to go down the 'work in London or Brussels Mon-Fri' route, i was stuck career wise, and wasn't prepared to live that existence and be away from my husband. My husband also found the job market precarious and he's an experienced IT developer programmer - we're both Masters degree educated and experienced in our respective fields. But the worst of it employment wise for us in the part of the UK we lived, is 2 months after we had our first baby, his contract at that time ended (2 years ago now), and nothing decent was coming up (which was a very stressful situation to be in - especially as i'd lost any decent maternity pay with being made redundant), and he ended up taking a role in Germany - it was either there or London - and we figured Germany would be cheaper, safer and take no longer for him to get home at weekends from. We are currently expecting our second baby early next year. Luckily we sold our house in Newcastle earlier this year for more than we thought we would and thanks to the Brexit effect on the £, are keeping the money in the UK until the exchange rate improves and we find our feet over here. Within 2 weeks of arriving in Melbourne, and following second interveiws, my husband was offered 3 really good jobs - all paying around $150k pa mark and permanent contracts - with a 17% employer pension contribution which is virtually unheard of in the UK. For us that means a lot as we haven't had any job security in the UK in over 5 years. There are a huge range of options for me over here in the job market too, and when i come to return to work in a year or so, i'm confident it can't be any tougher than trying to find decent work in the North East has been. We both loved the North East, and it's a great place to live, IF you can find a decent job. In our fields that is difficult ..... and not that we are career obsessed ..... but not being able to find work is both stressful and impacts greatly on your day to day life - fact. I appreciate we are very new to Oz, and may feel like some of you do in a few years time, and want to return to the UK. But there is every chance we will want to stay in Oz too, and we're both enjoying everything it is offering us at this stage in our life. We're due to move into a lovely rental home in a coastal suburb 30 mins from the Melbourne CBD, have our son booked into kindy, are all registered with our local hospital for baby no2 arrival, and have already met some lovely people in our new suburb - both Australian and fellow UK immigrants. This is just our story, but our gut feeling is this has been a good move for us! Fantastic for you, really glad that it has worked so well for you. When I highlight the issues with employment and housing here it's not because I've got a downer on the Uk, it's working quite well for us, but there are difficulties here and people need to be aware before making such a momentous decision. I really hope you enjoy it and find your place there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Facts like all car manufacturers will pull out of the UK and none will consider investing, those sort of facts you mean ? What like the deal just done with Nissan to keep them from dis-investing and pi##ing off, you mean that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolman Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 What like the deal just done with Nissan to keep them from dis-investing and pi##ing off, you mean that fact. No, you said all car manufacturers would leave the UK, to you there was little doubt, it was going to happen. Now they actually aren't doing that and are in fact investing more you are still trying to claim you were right lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambethlad Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 This would be a good reason for moving back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolman Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 This would be a good reason for moving back![ATTACH=CONFIG]34344[/ATTACH] Quite the opposite for me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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