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Perthbum

grammar schools for the privileged few

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he came from a wealthy family and had private schooling.

 

You miss the point entirely, he left school an underachiever and succeeded in spite of his schooling.


Loving life in Gods Country. Woohoo, look at me. 

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You miss the point entirely, he left school an underachiever and succeeded in spite of his schooling.

you miss my point again, the vast majority of successful people had the best education and the vast majority came from privileged families who could afford that education...fact


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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Who cares ? Seriously why does it bother the class warriors so much that rich people are advantaged ? If I see someone in an Aston Martin drive by I think nice car, not look at that rich prick. If I had bought the first house we could of back in 1985 and then the other times after that we would be very well off, nothing to do with my schooling but taking advantage of opportunities. Instead we travelled and had a ball but we are still mortgage free just not rich. I don't begrudge rich people their money as long as they made it legally and if they had a advantage from an early age and went to the right schools so be it.


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For many years I had an extra w/end job to help pay the bills- this involved doing door to door surveys and one thing I noticed was that the extremely rich ( not moderate but extreme) invariably started work at about 15 or 16 years old. They didn't like school and they didn't do well at school. The thing is, a lot of teachers aren't that inspiring and have not the time or wit to realise the talents that are there amongst non conformist kids who might well be classed as a nuisance.

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So because that is how the system is now and that is how people have been convinced they should act, in their own best interests and sod everyone else makes it perfectly alright, I seem to remember at least two recent regimes that convinced their citizens that was an acceptable doctrine, to standby in silence whilst they murdered millions.

Well- that is a stretch isn't it? Silly comment.Quite offensive too.

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Yes, all of those I mentioned and many more left school early with no real qualifications but high expectations. They are highly motivated and single minded. I have never been money orientated so there was never that motivation for me, I remember in our first married couple house in Geelong having to feel down the back of the couch to find money for milk lol


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Well- that is a stretch isn't it? Silly comment.Quite offensive too.

 

Yes absurd and offensive.


Loving life in Gods Country. Woohoo, look at me. 

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Who cares ? Seriously why does it bother the class warriors so much that rich people are advantaged ? If I see someone in an Aston Martin drive by I think nice car, not look at that rich prick. If I had bought the first house we could of back in 1985 and then the other times after that we would be very well off, nothing to do with my schooling but taking advantage of opportunities. Instead we travelled and had a ball but we are still mortgage free just not rich. I don't begrudge rich people their money as long as they made it legally and if they had a advantage from an early age and went to the right schools so be it.

 

I don't have an issue with it either.

 

As for the Grammar School issue I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with streaming in schools. I would rather have my child with someone of equal academic ability so they are all at the same level. A teacher having to deal with kids of differing academic abilities must find it a nightmare and someone (usually the middle of the road kids) will fall through the cracks.

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OK. I was going to stay out of this thread, but, Friday night is my drinky poos night when I lay my soul bare and invite the slagging off from those who, well?..............just can't wait to slag me off................I admit, I'm a feckin' weirdo and I had a really strange dream last night after struggling to keep my fingers off the keyboard of this thread, which has prompted me to write tonight. (yes, nearly 1 pm and I'm frightened if I go to bed It'll happen again)..............I'll get to the dream later

 

I was raised in an orphanage from 4 yrs to 11 and "released" when my father came out of prison. I hardly attended school, constantly running away from the orphanage but strangely enough, I had a "stable" period around 11 plus time due to I think, I met my first love, she used to meet me early on the way to school with a round of cold toast and marmalade...............Anyways,I passed the 11 plus, just in time to be released into my (so called) parent's care. They opted for me to go to a technical school (of which I have seen no mention in this thread but which was an option at the time). Much of the study was at lathes etc but a year later, tech schools were merged into comps so I was sent to a grammar................the 3 years there rated as being almost as bad as the orphanage. You were required to wear cricket whites in summer (for twice weekly) sport, and full rugby kit in winter. My feckwite parents provided me with neither and you can imagine the abuse that I was subjected to on returning home after a rugby match in the clothes that I had to wear the following day!

 

My life was hell! toffee nosed bastards taking the piss, who really were just kids of aspiring middle class who had aspirations for their kids rising above their pre-determined (by Brit class structure) status in society.It was good that they wanted more for their kids than they themselves had managed to achieve, but bad that they thought that they would ever rise to the ranks of the judiciary/politics etc, and could only get to wherever they wanted to be by walking over the "corpses" of folk like me, although some did get to where they wanted to be by fair means, not foul.

 

Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) was an example of (my opinion's on my own despite my penchant for his music?) but he states that he left my school because he refused to be subjected to corporal punishment, when to my recall, he left because he thought he was a cut above everyone else, and I clearly remember that he wasn't averse to a bit of bullying himself..........but by the by........he did alright and anyone that doubts his future venture into salmon farming on the Isle of Skye had anything to do with his aspirations to being a "Laird" and more to do with him "saving jobs in the highlands" is welcome to their opinion.........but I digress

 

Where was I? :-) Certain things happened at that school and I left at age 15 and joined Lancastrian Brigade Boy soldiers. Six weeks after joining up I was asked if I'd lake to sit Army Certificate of Education Class 1 which allowed you to progress to Warrant Officer (Paid) with a likelihood of commission in the future due to the results of the IQ test that I took in the Army recruiting centre (just some puzzles/dominoes/shapes and shlt as I said to my mates). I thought it strange at the time because the normal course was to sit Class 3 and the Class 2 but apparently my IQ exempted me both so I jumped straight to class 1. Of course, I didn't have a feckin idea what they were waffling on about but I said yes..............and I passed.............so at age 16 I had all the educational qualifications that, all things being equal, could lead to a commission.

 

What the hell am I waffling on about? I really don't know other than to say that comprehensive, technical, grammar? I doubt that any of these would have realised/been aware of my potential/ They were all based on exam results.........which I would have failed miserably because I didn't have the social/parental/economic/class ability to have succeeded in.

 

So? as much as I didn't want to enter into this debate, due to (see my avatar) I have...............but only to show how divisive/demeaning/destructive class can be within the education system, but also to illustrate that the divisiveness is perpetuated in the main, by the offspring of those divided (albeit knowingly or unwittingly). No doubt, there are minds such as mine (and I'm not elevating myself here) who could have been put to good use, no matter how small their contribution, for the furtherance of all, should they have been given the chance, tapped into, and pointed in the right direction, but they never were.................but................back to the dream

 

Prompted either or both by the new movie that I'd seen on the news and this thread, last night was a horrendous round of nightmares, the such that I haven't experienced before by virtue of the fact that I woke, went outside for a smoke at 1.15pm (yes, I've gone back to the weed again) and on returning to bed, picked up the nightmare where I left off!

 

Just a quick summary. It was open day at my grammar and for some reason it was fancy dress........so I rocked up..............the only one in fancy dress!! They laughed, oh how they laughed! So I ducked into the loo and changed into another fancy dress......and they laughed even more, and applauded because my guises were brilliant, and they weren't taking the plss,they REALLY liked me. I changed a few times with the same results and I felt like a star. So prize giving and the judges don't even allow me to speak but just present me as "not worthy" and one judge, Jennifer Saunders, holds me whilst the other, Joanna Lumley, cuts my throat. The audience rolls about laughing thinking it is just a stunt and I'm feckin' brilliant to have staged it, with blood spurting everywhere, whilst my life blood ebbs away and I wake up in a cold sweat and reach for a ciggy in the early hours of the morning, something that I have never done.

 

Never had a dream so vivid in all my life............Elements of wanting to be accepted, extrovert, rejection, blah blah blah...............or am I just cracking up?

 

Don't answer that. No doubt I'll be committed in the morning


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Well- that is a stretch isn't it? Silly comment.Quite

Have you complained to your MP about the conditions refugees are held in on Nauru, if you have then your comment might be accepted, otherwise I think that what I said seems to be a fair comment on your philosophy of life.

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Who cares ? Seriously why does it bother the class warriors so much that rich people are advantaged ? If I see someone in an Aston Martin drive by I think nice car, not look at that rich prick. If I had bought the first house we could of back in 1985 and then the other times after that we would be very well off, nothing to do with my schooling but taking advantage of opportunities. Instead we travelled and had a ball but we are still mortgage free just not rich. I don't begrudge rich people their money as long as they made it legally and if they had a advantage from an early age and went to the right schools so be it.

Why change a system that has streaming as of now and all children are treated equal, why change it for a system where some kids get better schools better teachers and better facilities,


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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I really don't see what the issue is here.

 

Grammar School is a misnomer in any case. They were so called because Latin grammar was taught. I sat an 11 plus and I was one of only two in my primary school who did. I was not disadvantaged nor tutored but people were not as a whole that interested attending grammar schools where I lived.

 

The curriculum cannot feasibly continue to be pulled in all directions to become more broad, more balanced and more inclusive. In doing so, schools would need astronomical budgets to incorporate the technologies with the 3D printers and work rooms, sports halls with the ergonomic equipment, the arts, vocational and pure academic routes. Schools used to have one gym which served as the theatre, the dance hall, the exam hall and assembly hall. Now the equipment and resources are vast.

 

There are some schools that try very hard to do all of these things well but trying to be all things often ends up displeasing someone or being a cluster of chaos. Reinstating grammar schools would be spending less money, not more. There are pupils out there who do not want a broad curriculum.

 

In Aus we have very specialised state schools which are highly selective and pupils sit an examination to enter. It works incredibly well. I have taught in one. These schools are small and have a narrow academic curriculum and few facilities outside of that. Some pupils travel for up to an hour and a half each way to attend.

No one is moaning, it's not hitting the press and no one wants to take down the government because they are selective. Pupils can enter at age 11 or there is another route at age 14.

 

If a parent really wants a child to have a top academic grounding in the UK it is within reach for all.

 

Pupils who are 'late bloomers' can easily access a higher academic level via the school or take up the opportunity to transfer to a more academic route later. Pupils can even exit at year 11 to study the rigorous International Baccalaureate at a further Ed college. I have some friends whose children did this in the UK - all free.

 

Someone said that middle class parents have more time to access the appropriate information and to coach their children. This is rubbish. As a single mum who has always worked full time, I had almost no spare time and yet I still managed to sort it out. I just made it the top priority. This included a 2 year period when there was absolutely no suitable option. I slashed our clothes, food and lifestyle budget to pay for private fees so that he could be safe and happy. We went without.

 

There is an absolute huge array of free online tuition for any child who wishes to practice for any type of entrance examination. You only have to log on to khan Academy, Bright Storm or Socratic and it will start basic and develop more detail as a student needs.

 

I have taught many 11 year olds who had already mastered quadratics and derivatives because that was their choice. Some have to work twice as hard to keep up with the others but that is what they have chosen.

A student who has been coached to pass a one off test as some call it will follow one of two routes. They will either up their game and study extremely hard to match the others, in which case they deserve to stay there; or they will move on quickly and the place will go to someone who should have it.

 

A motivated student with good home support will excel in spite of schools and teachers and not because of them.

 

So I would like to bring back the 'Grammar' schools because I think a narrow academic curriculum works for some. Going a step further, I think Latin should be taught as a core subject as it broadens understanding in almost all subjects.

 

If people don't like their situation, they can change it. No need to moan about it

Edited by milliem

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Why change a system that has streaming as of now and all children are treated equal, why change it for a system where some kids get better schools better teachers and better facilities,

 

All children being treated 'equally' does not mean they are being treated equitably - there is a difference.

 

Grammar schools were fantastic and it is a shame they disappeared.

 

My Father came from a very poor London (after the war) background and by winning a place at grammar based on his academic ability, it opened up a whole new world of possibilities. He was extremely bright and he would not have received an equitable education if he had had gone to the local tech school.

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All children being treated 'equally' does not mean they are being treated equitably - there is a difference.

 

Grammar schools were fantastic and it is a shame they disappeared.

 

My Father came from a very poor London (after the war) background and by winning a place at grammar based on his academic ability, it opened up a whole new world of possibilities. He was extremely bright and he would not have received an equitable education if he had had gone to the local tech school.

What about the kids who were just as bright or even brighter than your dad who did not for whatever reason pass the 11 plus on that particular day at aged 11.

p.s grammar schools were fantastic for the privileged few while the rest suffered in state secondary schools.

Edited by Perthbum

Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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What about the kids who were just as bright or even brighter than your dad who did not for whatever reason pass the 11 plus on that particular day at aged 11.

p.s grammar schools were fantastic for the privileged few while the rest suffered in state secondary schools.

 

Well if you read my post PB, these days there are many additional options for committed students to opt for a more specialised route throughout schooling. So what might have historically been a closed pathway for some remains a possibility for throughout schooling years.

 

I taught a boy who transferred in to us from a regular secondary. He had spent all the last two years of his core classes in an online classroom fed from another school because he was working at a level well beyond his peers. If the student is suitably capable and committed, many doors are opened.


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What about the kids who were just as bright or even brighter than your dad who did not for whatever reason pass the 11 plus on that particular day at aged 11.

p.s grammar schools were fantastic for the privileged few while the rest suffered in state secondary schools.

 

My Aunt, my Father's sister, did not pass the 11 plus and so went to the local school. She did not suffer in anyway and still had a great education. However, my Father needed extending and that is exactly what he got. Your argument is flawed.

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well if you read my post pb, these days there are many additional options for committed students to opt for a more specialised route throughout schooling. So what might have historically been a closed pathway for some remains a possibility for throughout schooling years.

 

I taught a boy who transferred in to us from a regular secondary. He had spent all the last two years of his core classes in an online classroom fed from another school because he was working at a level well beyond his peers. If the student is suitably capable and committed, many doors are opened.

 

whats wrong with the present system where kids are streamed into classes with kids of a similar standard in the particular subject, it really works well they are saying.


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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my aunt, my father's sister, did not pass the 11 plus and so went to the local school. She did not suffer in anyway and still had a great education. However, my father needed extending and that is exactly what he got. Your argument is flawed.

see post above.


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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What about the kids who were just as bright or even brighter than your dad who did not for whatever reason pass the 11 plus on that particular day at aged 11.

p.s grammar schools were fantastic for the privileged few while the rest suffered in state secondary schools.

 

The 11 plus grammar / secondary modern streaming had finished when I reached that age, my older sister was the final year. She was not particularly academic herself and did not pass, but there were no surprises on the day, the children that did pass it were always the ones that had done well academically. Likewise we took exams every year throughout junior school, nothing external just the annual end of year exams and the people that were consistently top placed were the ones that were consistently achieving academically through the year. People have been tested by exams for a very long time, there is something in it.

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The 11 plus grammar / secondary modern streaming had finished when I reached that age, my older sister was the final year. She was not particularly academic herself and did not pass, but there were no surprises on the day, the children that did pass it were always the ones that had done well academically. Likewise we took exams every year throughout junior school, nothing external just the annual end of year exams and the people that were consistently top placed were the ones that were consistently achieving academically through the year. People have been tested by exams for a very long time, there is something in it.

A one off test at age 11 where true ability could never really assessed, plus many wealthy families have private tutors to just pass that one test, many many many brighter kids have failed the test who were more intelligent but failed for all reasons on the one day and their familes could not afford private education for that one test....nahhhh it is not a test of intelligence at 11.


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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whats wrong with the present system where kids are streamed into classes with kids of a similar standard in the particular subject, it really works well they are saying.

 

 

Err, :rolleyes:I already answered that question as well.

Not much point in having this conversation if you insist on not reading informed opinions and actual first hand experience which addresses and in most cases answers your concerns. Just continue to make sweeping statements and believe the hype that started this thread.


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Err, :rolleyes:I already answered that question as well.

Not much point in having this conversation if you insist on not reading informed opinions and actual first hand experience which addresses and in most cases answers your concerns. Just continue to make sweeping statements and believe the hype that started this thread.

So you cannot come up with a real reason the present system does not work, I am sure far far more have a better experience of it than you.


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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Why do we need Grammar Schools anyway? pupils through streaming can achieve whatever they wont, exams in grammer schools are the same as the top streamers in secondary schools so why the extra cost of funding new schools when the present system has worked perfectly for years. Uni has never been so full.


Drinking rum before 11am does not make you an alcoholic, it makes you pirate..

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A one off test at age 11 where true ability could never really assessed, plus many wealthy families have private tutors to just pass that one test, many many many brighter kids have failed the test who were more intelligent but failed for all reasons on the one day and their familes could not afford private education for that one test....nahhhh it is not a test of intelligence at 11.

 

Wealthy families were not competing for grammar school places, they just pay for private education. And as I say, in my experience there is a huge correlation between exam day success, year round performance and general academic ability.

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So you cannot come up with a real reason the present system does not work, I am sure far far more have a better experience of it than you.

 

Again, you didn't read the reasons I provided and I am not planning on repeating them.

 

I never claimed to be the most experienced; that was your inference.

 

I have been in the business a long time but still very open to other valid and informed opinions.


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