newjez Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Just tell me in which British city you have seen tents on streets with migrants living in them with a verified photo and I might almost believe some of the rest of this UKIP inspired prejudice. I saw a vast number of Europeans on the beach in temporary shelters at West wittering on the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Of course it is about curtailing free speech. It isn't about vilifying people, but there is a right, or should be, that allows people to ask very serious questions about how some groups behave and their beliefs. That is something that already hasn't happened enough as every time it does, the left just go down to the same tactics as you and say that such talk is prejudiced and anyone who does it is a xenophobe. But, usually without ever addressing the actual debate. Freedom of speech does mean very different things in different countries. It is always a balance between the right to speak out and people's right not to be offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I saw a vast number of Europeans on the beach in temporary shelters at West wittering on the weekend. The Daily Express even reported this and the govt was supposedly utilising an old holiday camp as a temporary asylum seeker centre and I assume that has now over spilt, but it is a processing centre run by the govt and doesn't seem to be immigrants camping out merely to get benefits and NHS treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 The Daily Express even reported this and the govt was supposedly utilising an old holiday camp as a temporary asylum seeker centre and I assume that has now over spilt, but it is a processing centre run by the govt and doesn't seem to be immigrants camping out merely to get benefits and NHS treatment. Sorry, I was joking. They were mainly French with a few scattered Polish and the temporary shelters were to keep out of the sun as it was damned hot. I assume they live here as you wouldn't go to the UK for a beach holiday surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miw54 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Just tell me in which British city you have seen tents on streets with migrants living in them with a verified photo and I might almost believe some of the rest of this UKIP inspired prejudice. In Manchester, England. My son lives there, near the Uni and says it is dreadful - looks like Calais. However, the occupants are mainly Lithuanians and other Eastern Europeans. It has also been a feature in newspapers and on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoman Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 British in their beach huts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunbury61 Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 Just tell me what the debate is and exactly what the issues are with some real verified statistics and what it is you will achieve as an outcome from the debate and show me examples of the successful implementation of whatever your proposals are, and show me that the implementation will not mean people have to suffer consequences that should not be imposed by one sector of humanity on another, or do you advocate condemning certain faiths, nationalities and races to everlasting purgatory merely because of accidents of birth.Or is the debate simply about a view that as white English speaking British we are superior to all these lesser people and have a god given right to impose our will upon them. In the UK there were no immigration controls until 1905 when they were introduced to keep out those fiends the Jews from Russia and eastern europe, the same hysteria, the same justifications and the same vilification. But the population wasn't growing at 300,000 new immigrants EVERY YEAR . Where are the school places ,the housing ,the hospital places . OUT ,and lets take any hits that come with it ...go on scare me ....go on tell me about unemployment and how no one will love us anymore .....f..k them .....out for me . 28 countries ,only 2 NET CONTRIBUTORS ,Germany and the u.k...time toleave Londons population to grow by 1 million in the next 5 years...time to leave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 But the population wasn't growing at 300,000 new immigrants EVERY YEAR .Where are the school places ,the housing ,the hospital places . OUT ,and lets take any hits that come with it ...go on scare me ....go on tell me about unemployment and how no one will love us anymore .....f..k them .....out for me . 28 countries ,only 2 NET CONTRIBUTORS ,Germany and the u.k...time toleave Londons population to grow by 1 million in the next 5 years...time to leave Well I love an optimist but I must say that I am very glad that I have to no longer work or pay off a mortgage, if you think being out of the EU is going to solve the immigration issue then so be it but do not be surprised when the remaining well paid jobs shove off to the EU and the jobs that are left are jobs paying the minimum wage, you will have solved the immigration issue, if it is an issue, and given yourselves over to the likes of Sports Direct and Amazon, I am almost resigned to the fact that apart from a reduction in the value of my house and every one else's I will be well off with a inflation related pension and reducing food prices as surpluses have to be sold on the home market so I don't know why I'm bothered, in or out its of little concern beyond being governed by a bunch of buffoons and right wing ideologues who you wouldn't have running a sweetshop, have you considered what it would be like having toff boy Boris running the country with Gove, Grayling, Paterson , IDS and even Redwood and Cash back again and is Lansdown still around, maybe he could have another go at reorganising the NHS finally out of existence. The Chinese proverb 'may you live in interesting times' might be appropriate or 'be careful what you wish for' might be even moreso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) But the population wasn't growing at 300,000 new immigrants EVERY YEAR .Where are the school places ,the housing ,the hospital places . OUT ,and lets take any hits that come with it ...go on scare me ....go on tell me about unemployment and how no one will love us anymore .....f..k them .....out for me . 28 countries ,only 2 NET CONTRIBUTORS ,Germany and the u.k...time toleave Londons population to grow by 1 million in the next 5 years...time to leave Another point is that you are looking thro the wrong end of the telescope, the birth rate is not high enough to provide the workers needed, the death rate is in effect reducing as more people live longer and require more money spent supporting them, why do you think the NHS is in crisis, not because of migrants using it but because of the inexorable growth of old very ill people. The migrants who are coming are in general employed and contributing, they are not taking jobs from the indigenous population because if you are on benefits now you literally have to take any job so it is the age old problem that the jobs and the indigenous job seekers are in the wrong place and when they are not why are employers choosing overseas workers, is it because they are easier to fleece of their rights to proper wages and proper conditions of employment and easier to control, immigrant workforces have always been a favourite of British employers ever since the Irish labourers of the 19thC and the West Indians in the 1950's for this very reason. Migrants from the EU come because there is a demand for them, supply and demand, the watchword of all free marketeers Edited June 9, 2016 by BacktoDemocracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 In Manchester, England. My son lives there, near the Uni and says it is dreadful - looks like Calais. However, the occupants are mainly Lithuanians and other Eastern Europeans.[ATTACH=CONFIG]33665[/ATTACH] It has also been a feature in newspapers and on TV. It might be useful to check more widely the the daily mail and the daily express, it appears that they were local mancunian homeless who the council were aware of and some of whom squatted the empty corn hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tea4too Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Another point is that you are looking thro the wrong end of the telescope, the birth rate is not high enough to provide the workers needed, the death rate is in effect reducing as more people live longer and require more money spent supporting them, why do you think the NHS is in crisis, not because of migrants using it but because of the inexorable growth of old very ill people.The migrants who are coming are in general employed and contributing, they are not taking jobs from the indigenous population because if you are on benefits now you literally have to take any job so it is the age old problem that the jobs and the indigenous job seekers are in the wrong place and when they are not why are employers choosing overseas workers, is it because they are easier to fleece of their rights to proper wages and proper conditions of employment and easier to control, immigrant workforces have always been a favourite of British employers ever since the Irish labourers of the 19thC and the West Indians in the 1950's for this very reason. Migrants from the EU come because there is a demand for them, supply and demand, the watchword of all free marketeers Immigration is a key feature for many in the EU referendum and I think it is a really important point, but I hear and read very little about the benefits for the UK, particularly with regard to an increasingly ageing UK population. Pensioners currently account for 55% of welfare expenditure and that proportion will rise. While people are living longer they are not necessarily healthier in old age and the cost of pensions, healthcare and social care is falling on a reducing proportion of people in work Against that background the UK needs to grow the economy, increasing the pool of workers and taxpayers. The obvious and immediate solution is working age immigrants and, despite some media reports to the contrary, research suggests that migration is not the drain on society some believe. University College London determined that European migrants pay more in taxes than they take out in state benefits, a contribution to the economy valued at £2bn a year. Many are over qualified for the work they do with 59% of EU migrants having university or college qualifications (compared to 34% of British residents). If the UK reduces the number of taxpayers by curbing migration, how do we support the ever-increasing percentage of retired, pension claiming citizens? T x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Sorry, I was joking. They were mainly French with a few scattered Polish and the temporary shelters were to keep out of the sun as it was damned hot. I assume they live here as you wouldn't go to the UK for a beach holiday surely? Sorry I don't have much of an antenna for irony or much of a sense of humour at the moment as I see my country men and women seduced and tricked into lacking any sense of solidarity with a Europe that we were so instrumental in creating and which a bunch of egotistical self interested bozos are intent upon wrecking for their own short term career advancement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Sorry I don't have much of an antenna for irony or much of a sense of humour at the moment as I see my country men and women seduced and tricked into lacking any sense of solidarity with a Europe that we were so instrumental in creating and which a bunch of egotistical self interested bozos are intent upon wrecking for their own short term career advancement. I don't actually like the EU. I think it's a bureaucratic nightmare. I think it is a ridiculous undertaking. It has caused enormous hardships and nearly destroyed several nations. It is so unworkable as to be a joke. But I think we should let the French destroy it, and then we will come out with much better terms. I just don't see why we should inflict that much pain upon ourselves when the eu has a very finite life. When it breaks, and I expect that to happen within the next ten years, it would be good to have an input into what rises out of the rubble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooba Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Just watched this. Worth watching if you're undecided. I was already firmly on the leave side. I wish I could vote! Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunbury61 Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Well I love an optimist but I must say that I am very glad that I have to no longer work or pay off a mortgage, if you think being out of the EU is going to solve the immigration issue then so be it but do not be surprised when the remaining well paid jobs shove off to the EU and the jobs that are left are jobs paying the minimum wage, you will have solved the immigration issue, if it is an issue, and given yourselves over to the likes of Sports Direct and Amazon, I am almost resigned to the fact that apart from a reduction in the value of my house and every one else's I will be well off with a inflation related pension and reducing food prices as surpluses have to be sold on the home market so I don't know why I'm bothered, in or out its of little concern beyond being governed by a bunch of buffoons and right wing ideologues who you wouldn't have running a sweetshop, have you considered what it would be like having toff boy Boris running the country with Gove, Grayling, Paterson , IDS and even Redwood and Cash back again and is Lansdown still around, maybe he could have another go at reorganising the NHS finally out of existence.The Chinese proverb 'may you live in interesting times' might be appropriate or 'be careful what you wish for' might be even moreso That is all the e.u is supplying low paid work ...THE MOVEMENT OF CHEAP LABOUR ,NOT FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT . You are being mugged off by big business and the global elites. Being in the e.u is driving down terms and conditions ...OUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibbs Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 If the UK doesn't exit, maybe the French will :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 If the UK doesn't exit, maybe the French will :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/ A close stay and then a French exit with a controlled break up of the union into economic zones would be my preferred outcome. Three economic zones with their own currencies, and a close relationship between the three would be ideal, with a clear demarcation of governance would be good. Does anyone know how the eu transformed from a trade agreement to a state in it's own right with power over its components? When was that ever an objective or even desirable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 If the UK doesn't exit, maybe the French will :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/ In any political coup, he who wields the dagger rarely wears the crown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 A close stay and then a French exit with a controlled break up of the union into economic zones would be my preferred outcome. Three economic zones with their own currencies, and a close relationship between the three would be ideal, with a clear demarcation of governance would be good. Does anyone know how the eu transformed from a trade agreement to a state in it's own right with power over its components? When was that ever an objective or even desirable? The EU will survive a Brexit. But if France pulls the plug it is all over and will be VERY messy for all the nations that are members at that time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VERYSTORMY Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I have a simple question for those that support uncontrolled migration. If, as some seem to believe, it is so positive for the UK, then please explain why we shouldn't do the following. We take a fleet of super tankers, we kit them out as giant floating ferries, sail them to Africa and tell everyone that they can freely move to the UK. We could maybe import 10 million a month. If uncontrolled migration is so wonderfully beneficial, we will all be squileonairs by Christmas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I don't actually like the EU. I think it's a bureaucratic nightmare. I think it is a ridiculous undertaking. It has caused enormous hardships and nearly destroyed several nations. It is so unworkable as to be a joke. But I think we should let the French destroy it, and then we will come out with much better terms. I just don't see why we should inflict that much pain upon ourselves when the eu has a very finite life. When it breaks, and I expect that to happen within the next ten years, it would be good to have an input into what rises out of the rubble. I agree that it is unwieldy dominated by cliques and with the Germans dominating it with their finance sector baying for blood it will have to change but to take a Moaist view that only by wrecking things completely can anything new be created might not actually be to anyone's benefit, it has taken China 40 years to recovery from Moa's revolution and what we know in Europe is that when we have that kind of breakdown war is immediately imminent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BacktoDemocracy Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I have a simple question for those that support uncontrolled migration. If, as some seem to believe, it is so positive for the UK, then please explain why we shouldn't do the following. We take a fleet of super tankers, we kit them out as giant floating ferries, sail them to Africa and tell everyone that they can freely move to the UK. We could maybe import 10 million a month. If uncontrolled migration is so wonderfully beneficial, we will all be squileonairs by Christmas I think you've definitely lost the plot, try responding with a reasoned argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 If the UK doesn't exit, maybe the French will :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/ An EU without the French? Now that's something I'd be happy to vote for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunbury61 Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 An EU without the French? Now that's something I'd be happy to vote for! A few facts put into our local paper by a pensioner in Solihull ,who obviously knows his stuff 2010 -15 NET contribution to the e.u £45.5 billion ...what !!!! A rebate of £85 million per week ...but that still leaves £265 million input We have NO control over the rebate amount E.u demanded £1.8 billion over and above 18 months ago ...probably to help bail out Greece ...this had to be paid in installments Finally ,the euro banks are in deep strife ,with a £715 billion black hole . Time to turn the tap off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunbury61 Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Hi Could you expand on this? Most people I know are stay or undecided. Most of the stays are wish we could leave but. Some of my north London family wants to leave, but they are lapping up the hard right immigration arguments. What sort of people want to leave? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/21/eu-referendum-who-in-britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-rem/ Almost everyone I speak to ,are voting OUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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