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How to convince your 81 year old mum to come and visit

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It's crunch time....we validated in November 2013 and have until November 2017 to get to Oz, a window of opportunity has come up and leaving Jan 2016 would be a good option, however I have a very big sticking point....my mum. If we go now she will be on her own, we will be taking her two grandchildren away from her and they are basically her life, when we came back from our validation trip at the end of 2013, she wouldn't really talk about us leaving and although she would never stop us I know leaving her would be devastating for her, but at the time she had said she would come out and visit plus she had my older sister back here, unfortunately my sister passed away suddenly in January this year and my mum is now point blank refusing to travel.

 

Our Australian adventure was something we always wanted to do and we worked very hard to be in a position to get a PR visa, taking over 4 years to be granted and at this moment a lot of things such as work, finances, school ages for kids etc have lined up that going in the next 6-8 months would work very well but going and my mum not visiting for extended periods is not an option.

 

I guess what I'm asking is, has anyone been in a similar situation, how did you handle it? I'm thinking I need to sit down with her and run through everything with her and make her understand what it means to us and how we work around her fears about coming to visit, the plane journey etc.. but at the moment I'm dreading that conversation

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hi, sorry to hear of your dilema. Our situation is similar and here's how we are dealing with it, but it's not been easy....

 

We validated in August 2014, and plan to move May 2016 to Perth. Mum had always said that she would spend 6 months here in the UK and six months with us in Oz. My brother is in the UK and no plans to follow us. (he's not got kids) we have two kids, 12 and 14 who see my mum almost every day and have a great relationship with her she lives on the next road to us and eats with us most nights unless she is out with friends, she has a good circle of friends, she is 67.

 

Anyway, after lots of talks about the practicality of leaving her house for 6 months at a time and not having us on hand each day, I call her every morning on my way to work just to make sure she is alive!!!! She agreed to move, so she is in the process of buying a two bed retirement apartment in our town, great location (bus routes etc) lots of people her own age, lots of activities going on, and her home will be safe whilst she is gone visiting us. Plus it givs me peace of mind that she wont be on her own while she in the UK. (My brother sees her once a week).

 

So, we have sold our house and will be moving into my mums and renting that from her, to give her an income and also gives us the flexibility to leave when we are ready rather than being tied into a bond.

 

I've kept her up to date with all our house hunting on line, showing her all the options of houses, the suburbs we like and the high school we want the kids to go to so that she feels part of the process. I'm trying to make this just as much about her potenttial future as it is about ours. We hope to buy after about 6 months and are looking at houses with either built in granny flats or with enough land we can build a log cabin type unit for her.

 

So, thinking ahead, she now plans to visit every 6 months until she can apply for a Contributory Parent Visa and ultimately move with us, again we have been looking on line for retirement village appartments for her as I need to know that she will be able to have an independant life with access to an instant social life and friends etc. We have also been talking to her friends so that they are all looking forward to holidays to visit her.

 

I guess what I'm doing / have done is the same as I had to do with my husband and kids, and that's sell her my dream until it has become her own. Clearly anything can happe between now and then, but I think I am about as planned as I can be.

 

Hope this helps

 

Laura xxx

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It's crunch time....we validated in November 2013 and have until November 2017 to get to Oz, a window of opportunity has come up and leaving Jan 2016 would be a good option, however I have a very big sticking point....my mum. If we go now she will be on her own, we will be taking her two grandchildren away from her and they are basically her life, when we came back from our validation trip at the end of 2013, she wouldn't really talk about us leaving and although she would never stop us I know leaving her would be devastating for her, but at the time she had said she would come out and visit plus she had my older sister back here, unfortunately my sister passed away suddenly in January this year and my mum is now point blank refusing to travel.

 

Our Australian adventure was something we always wanted to do and we worked very hard to be in a position to get a PR visa, taking over 4 years to be granted and at this moment a lot of things such as work, finances, school ages for kids etc have lined up that going in the next 6-8 months would work very well but going and my mum not visiting for extended periods is not an option.

 

I guess what I'm asking is, has anyone been in a similar situation, how did you handle it? I'm thinking I need to sit down with her and run through everything with her and make her understand what it means to us and how we work around her fears about coming to visit, the plane journey etc.. but at the moment I'm dreading that conversation

 

In all honesty, I am not sure that an 81 year old should be persuaded into travelling if she doesn't feel up to it. But putting that aside for a moment, perhaps business class airfares would make a huge difference to this journey which can be exhausting for the elderly. It does make a big difference and the journey becomes part of the fun, instead of something that has to be endured first.

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I wouldn't be persuading an 81 yr old to do something she doesn't want to do. You can bite the bullet and prioritise bringing the kids back to see her. I most certainly wouldn't be taking an octogenarian away from the life they have built up over the past 8 decades to implant them on the other side of the world away from all that is familiar and comparative penury in the process.

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hi, sorry to hear of your dilema. Our situation is similar and here's how we are dealing with it, but it's not been easy....

 

We validated in August 2014, and plan to move May 2016 to Perth. Mum had always said that she would spend 6 months here in the UK and six months with us in Oz. My brother is in the UK and no plans to follow us. (he's not got kids) we have two kids, 12 and 14 who see my mum almost every day and have a great relationship with her she lives on the next road to us and eats with us most nights unless she is out with friends, she has a good circle of friends, she is 67.

 

Anyway, after lots of talks about the practicality of leaving her house for 6 months at a time and not having us on hand each day, I call her every morning on my way to work just to make sure she is alive!!!! She agreed to move, so she is in the process of buying a two bed retirement apartment in our town, great location (bus routes etc) lots of people her own age, lots of activities going on, and her home will be safe whilst she is gone visiting us. Plus it givs me peace of mind that she wont be on her own while she in the UK. (My brother sees her once a week).

 

So, we have sold our house and will be moving into my mums and renting that from her, to give her an income and also gives us the flexibility to leave when we are ready rather than being tied into a bond.

 

I've kept her up to date with all our house hunting on line, showing her all the options of houses, the suburbs we like and the high school we want the kids to go to so that she feels part of the process. I'm trying to make this just as much about her potenttial future as it is about ours. We hope to buy after about 6 months and are looking at houses with either built in granny flats or with enough land we can build a log cabin type unit for her.

 

So, thinking ahead, she now plans to visit every 6 months until she can apply for a Contributory Parent Visa and ultimately move with us, again we have been looking on line for retirement village appartments for her as I need to know that she will be able to have an independant life with access to an instant social life and friends etc. We have also been talking to her friends so that they are all looking forward to holidays to visit her.

 

I guess what I'm doing / have done is the same as I had to do with my husband and kids, and that's sell her my dream until it has become her own. Clearly anything can happe between now and then, but I think I am about as planned as I can be.

 

Hope this helps

 

Laura xxx

 

 

Thanks Laura, sounds like you have it well and truly planned...I just need to get the ball rolling with her and start to introduce the ideas

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Bungo, Quoll I appreciate what you are saying and my mum is more important to me that living in Australia however equally IMHO I'm not actually asking that much of her, she would have to "endure" an uncomfortable trip once in 3 months, she is in the fortunate position to be able to travel business class or even a 45 day cruise on the Queen Elizabeth to get to Oz. The life she has here revolves around my family and in particular her grand daughters, why you think being able to spend more time with the family she cares about so much in a climate far more conducive to good health as opposed to stuck in her house in the UK on her own would be classed as comparative penury I have no idea.

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Owensfamily,so how are you going to feel if your Mum decides she will never visit?I left my Mum in Oz,and came to the UK to live.At no point did I expect my Mum to visit us (I also brought over my aussie kids)and she never did visit us.I visited her though.Maybe that's something you might need to accept.Last year I took a career break to spend time with my then 83 yr old Mum,and 2 mths into the break,she died suddenly.What have I learnt about all this?That people are more important than places.


When the power of love overcomes the love of power,the world will know peace ~ Jimi Hendrix

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Owensfamily,so how are you going to feel if your Mum decides she will never visit?I left my Mum in Oz,and came to the UK to live.At no point did I expect my Mum to visit us (I also brought over my aussie kids)and she never did visit us.I visited her though.Maybe that's something you might need to accept.Last year I took a career break to spend time with my then 83 yr old Mum,and 2 mths into the break,she died suddenly.What have I learnt about all this?That people are more important than places.

 

 

Sorry you have lost your mum but as I said in my first post "going and my mum not visiting for extended periods is not an option." and in my second post "my mum is more important to me than living in Australia" i.e. we would not go to Australia if my mum says she won't come and visit its as simple as that. I agree with you completely people are more important than places, thats why I want constructive advice from people who have been in a similar situation and how they dealt with trying to get across why you want to go to Australia and why you want them to still be a very important part of your life

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That's ok,Im over the worse of it now (Mum died last Aug).So let me get this right?You want to move to Australia,but won't unless your Mum visits you for extended periods?Thats a lot of pressure on your Mum isn't it?If you are that close to your Mum,it might be best to re think this move,because in between her visits,are you going to cope ok?Or be worried sick?From my own experience,as time went on,and Mum got older,being 10,000 miles away was quite difficult.


When the power of love overcomes the love of power,the world will know peace ~ Jimi Hendrix

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hi, sorry to hear of your dilema. Our situation is similar and here's how we are dealing with it, but it's not been easy....

 

We validated in August 2014, and plan to move May 2016 to Perth. Mum had always said that she would spend 6 months here in the UK and six months with us in Oz. My brother is in the UK and no plans to follow us. (he's not got kids) we have two kids, 12 and 14 who see my mum almost every day and have a great relationship with her she lives on the next road to us and eats with us most nights unless she is out with friends, she has a good circle of friends, she is 67.

 

Anyway, after lots of talks about the practicality of leaving her house for 6 months at a time and not having us on hand each day, I call her every morning on my way to work just to make sure she is alive!!!! She agreed to move, so she is in the process of buying a two bed retirement apartment in our town, great location (bus routes etc) lots of people her own age, lots of activities going on, and her home will be safe whilst she is gone visiting us. Plus it givs me peace of mind that she wont be on her own while she in the UK. (My brother sees her once a week).

 

So, we have sold our house and will be moving into my mums and renting that from her, to give her an income and also gives us the flexibility to leave when we are ready rather than being tied into a bond.

 

I've kept her up to date with all our house hunting on line, showing her all the options of houses, the suburbs we like and the high school we want the kids to go to so that she feels part of the process. I'm trying to make this just as much about her potenttial future as it is about ours. We hope to buy after about 6 months and are looking at houses with either built in granny flats or with enough land we can build a log cabin type unit for her.

 

So, thinking ahead, she now plans to visit every 6 months until she can apply for a Contributory Parent Visa and ultimately move with us, again we have been looking on line for retirement village appartments for her as I need to know that she will be able to have an independant life with access to an instant social life and friends etc. We have also been talking to her friends so that they are all looking forward to holidays to visit her.

 

I guess what I'm doing / have done is the same as I had to do with my husband and kids, and that's sell her my dream until it has become her own. Clearly anything can happe between now and then, but I think I am about as planned as I can be.

 

Hope this helps

 

Laura xxx

 

 

Our plan is very similar. We are hoping to move out in August (hoping for a visa grant on 1st of July.) My sister is already an Australian citizen and works for the Australian Defence Force. We plan to live quite close to her and her beautiful family. My mum and Dad plan to stay in the UK as my Dad feels no pull to move to Australia whatsoever and feels snowdonia is his paradise. Also the contributory parent visa is so expensive it is out of the question. Their plan is to spend the UK summer and spring on their canal boat and then the autumn and winter with us in Canberra. Our aim is also to buy a house with a self contained flat, although I hadn't thought about a house with land to put a cabin on, that's also a great idea. We figure that between us and my sister we will be able to pay for their flights and then perhaps rent out the flat on a short term lease for the other six months of the year. Maybe to new arrivals who are emigrating. I wish we could afford to buy them business class seats but as a nurse I doubt that will ever be possible. My husband and I are very close to my parents, so them not coming to stay with us would not be an option either. Those six months will be the best ever because I will finally have all my loved ones in the same country for more than a month. I can't wait!!


EOI made 26/12/14. - Invited 9/1/15. - applied 18/2/15 - PCC's loaded 18/2/15. - medicals done 17/3/15 - CO assigned 17/4/15 - requesting form 80 for both and military history for hubby. Additional requested docs uploaded 20/5/15.. Visa granted 15/6/15!!!!!

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It's crunch time....we validated in November 2013 and have until November 2017 to get to Oz, a window of opportunity has come up and leaving Jan 2016 would be a good option, however I have a very big sticking point....my mum. If we go now she will be on her own, we will be taking her two grandchildren away from her and they are basically her life, when we came back from our validation trip at the end of 2013, she wouldn't really talk about us leaving and although she would never stop us I know leaving her would be devastating for her, but at the time she had said she would come out and visit plus she had my older sister back here, unfortunately my sister passed away suddenly in January this year and my mum is now point blank refusing to travel.

 

Our Australian adventure was something we always wanted to do and we worked very hard to be in a position to get a PR visa, taking over 4 years to be granted and at this moment a lot of things such as work, finances, school ages for kids etc have lined up that going in the next 6-8 months would work very well but going and my mum not visiting for extended periods is not an option.

 

I guess what I'm asking is, has anyone been in a similar situation, how did you handle it? I'm thinking I need to sit down with her and run through everything with her and make her understand what it means to us and how we work around her fears about coming to visit, the plane journey etc.. but at the moment I'm dreading that conversation

 

I'm not wanting to make any judgements but just think of the practicalities, travel insurance is a challenge at that age and there is just such a higher risk of ailments which can be really serious at that age, I speak from experience with a DVT at 64 after a 15 hour flight to the states and a friend from some years back with a DVT after returning to the UK at age 68, I think strokes are also an increased risk with flying at that age also.

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On my Dear Old Mum's 70th birthday, she hopped on a Qantas flight to Australia...First time on any 'plane. The airport manager gave her a bottle of champagne for her to celebrate. He asked her why, at that age did she want to go that far.

Her answer, "always wanted to, now, try and stop me!" Of course, her doctor prescribed a dose of vallium...

 

Cheers, Bobj

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When I left my parents were in their late 70s and i did try at times to persuade them to visit but they saw the flight as too physically demanding - it certainly isn't easy. If your mum is used to long haul flights though it may well be different I would think about how the next 5 or 10 years or even longer would pan out though. There easily could become a time when she is no longer able to travel, not least because getting travel insurance becomes difficult. Dementia is on the increase - personally I think a lot of that is to do with us living longer but whatever the reason the risk double with every 5 years of age and 1 in 6 people over 80 have dementia, even early/mild dementia may make it no longer safe for her to travel on her own.

 

Even if she is still able to travel she will not be with you all the time and being a long way away when a parent is ill is not for the feint-hearted. I was lucky in that we came back in the July and my dad took seriously ill in the November, he was in hospital over Christmas and my mam needed a lot of support, she didn't even drive - I just kept imagining what it would have been like if I'd been in Australia still.

 

At 81 my mam was fit and healthy, she'd not seen a Dr. in 30 years - it was my dad that had the health issues, a month ago my mam had nausea and a stomach ache, after a week the Dr. was called and they took her in on the Friday, she died on the Sunday from Bowel cancer - it was completely undiagnosed. When my dad phoned me on the Friday there was no indication it was serious so had I been in Australia I would not have been jumping on a flight - I lived 180 miles from them in the UK so travel down on the Saturday morning was no big deal, my husband and son didn't come with me. We got the diagnosis late Saturday and we were told 24 hours, my husband jumped straight in the car and arrived at midnight but by the time they came in to the hospital to see her she was already unconscious, essentially it was too late. I am so glad I got a final few hours with her in which she knew she was dying and was so accepting that it made it easier to bear. The thought that I could have been living in Australia does not bear thinking about, I posted in the MBTTUK part of the forum a post entitle 'I have never been so glad that I MBTTUK'

 

Are you maybe thinking you r mum will like Australia and move permanently? I don't know the in's and outs of the parent visas but they seem very difficult (& expensive) to get

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That's ok,Im over the worse of it now (Mum died last Aug).So let me get this right?You want to move to Australia,but won't unless your Mum visits you for extended periods?Thats a lot of pressure on your Mum isn't it?If you are that close to your Mum,it might be best to re think this move,because in between her visits,are you going to cope ok?Or be worried sick?From my own experience,as time went on,and Mum got older,being 10,000 miles away was quite difficult.

 

Your points are all valid and I don't have the answers because I can't predict the future, I'm just trying to do what is best for my family i.e. my wife and daughters and my mum, Australia is not the be all and end all - its an opportunity, and adventure a chance to try something different, we may hate it and be back after a year but equally my mum if I could convince her to visit it may come over, love it and never want to return....and the problems around contributory visa occur!

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Your points are all valid and I don't have the answers because I can't predict the future, I'm just trying to do what is best for my family i.e. my wife and daughters and my mum, Australia is not the be all and end all - its an opportunity, and adventure a chance to try something different, we may hate it and be back after a year but equally my mum if I could convince her to visit it may come over, love it and never want to return....and the problems around contributory visa occur!

If she's the last living relative I'm sure there's a visa for that?

 

Not 100% sure though

 

You gotta do what's best for you and your family for sure including your Mum

 

My mother in law flew to visit us and she was 80

 

First flight wow

 

She was looked after all the way

 

Very brave lady and she's so glad she did it

 

I hope it all works out for you


 

....I Actually Live In Australia....And I'm Enjoying Life On The Gold Coast....It Is Possible You Know....

 

 

 

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Practically speaking, I would question whether it is worthwhile doing a contributory spouse visa for an 81 year old.

Aren't they prohibitively expensive ?

Realistically she may only live here for a very short time. Is it worth it ?


Buy a man eat fish. The Day, Teach Man, to lifetime.      - Joe Biden.

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My dad is slightly younger, but I have friends whose parents are in their mid 80's - one travels twice a year and has assistance from airport staff and travels without problem. The other travels each year and stops off in Hong Kong on both journeys as he doesn't mind travelling alone and enjoys the break in the journey.


I just want PIO to be a happy place where people are nice to each other and unicorns poop rainbows

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Owensfamily,so how are you going to feel if your Mum decides she will never visit?I left my Mum in Oz,and came to the UK to live.At no point did I expect my Mum to visit us (I also brought over my aussie kids)and she never did visit us.I visited her though.Maybe that's something you might need to accept.Last year I took a career break to spend time with my then 83 yr old Mum,and 2 mths into the break,she died suddenly.What have I learnt about all this?That people are more important than places.

 

Maybe I'm selfish but we left everyone in the UK and they are still there. People are going to die, get sick and you have to accept it. There is no way we would have promised to return and we couldn't have afforded it anyway. You have a life to live and if you think more about your Mum than coming to Aus then it's touch and go whether I would bother. If your going to be worrying about her missing the kids, saving up for visits back, then it's going to make settling in here all the tougher.

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Bungo, Quoll I appreciate what you are saying and my mum is more important to me that living in Australia however equally IMHO I'm not actually asking that much of her, she would have to "endure" an uncomfortable trip once in 3 months, she is in the fortunate position to be able to travel business class or even a 45 day cruise on the Queen Elizabeth to get to Oz. The life she has here revolves around my family and in particular her grand daughters, why you think being able to spend more time with the family she cares about so much in a climate far more conducive to good health as opposed to stuck in her house in the UK on her own would be classed as comparative penury I have no idea.

 

My post offered a practical trip to make the journey more palatable for an 81 year old and great to hear that this is an option.

 

As to the rest, I have made no comment on what your mother would prefer or what is better for her, so stop being so defensive, it is you that said she didn't want to visit, not me!

 

Or are you implying your mother is too old to have her own mind now? I wonder if you are trying to sooth your guilty conscience about leaving her and are struggling with that, well I am afraid every migrant has to leave people behind. If you can't stand the heat...

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My post offered a practical trip to make the journey more palatable for an 81 year old and great to hear that this is an option. As to the rest, I have made no comment on what your mother would prefer or what is better for her, so stop being so defensive, it is you that said she didn't want to visit, not me! Or are you implying your mother is too old to have her own mind now? I wonder if you are trying to sooth your guilty conscience about leaving her and are struggling with that, well I am afraid every migrant has to leave people behind. If you can't stand the heat...

No, it was me he was defending against!

 

My olds did the 6/6 trip for 15 years until they were 81 at which time they decided it was too much for them. Travel insurance was prohibitive for starters and each trip knocked them back a bit more each time. When they were in their 60s and 70s it was fine. There's a big difference between 60s and 80s for that long trip. In my mid 60s I can do it in my sleep but add another 20 years I probably won't be hefting my backpack to knock it off as easily.

 

Most UK parents making the move, unless they are very wealthy, find themselves in comparatively straitened circumstances with frozen pensions and a substantial chunk of their lifetime accumulations donated to a foreign government. Don't underestimate, too, the isolation - Australia isn't Britain, friendships aren't the same, you can't pop back for a lifetime friend's funeral etc. I've lost count of the pms I've had over the years of people telling me how much their aged parents regret having made the move but they cant afford to move back. I've talked to my parents about whether they've regretted not moving to Aus - answer, resounding No!

 

If a parent is wealthy enough to travel first class then maybe they'd be prepared to fork out to fund the family's return if finances are tight for the migrants.

 

Don't bank on the climate being "healthier" either - lots of people in Aus spend their lives immured indoors because of the heat in summer (me for one!) and homes are generally not nearly as well insulated against the cold (in Canberra that's important!). Now living in UK I am outside and doing far more than I ever did back in Canberra although I will say that my dad then in his mid 80s gave up golf because his similarly aged mates often used the weather as an excuse not to get out and have a round!

 

I'm with PiP - when we moved there was no expectation that anyone would come and visit but that they chose to come and spend 6 months playing golf and then home for 6 months playing golf was a bonus for us. I chose to move and so it was my responsibility to ensure my kids were as connected as possible so took the kids back regularly before the olds retired and again after they decided not to come any more. You've got to be selfish to make this migration lark work. If you want it enough then do it, live with the consequences - simples!

Edited by Quoll
darned ipad mucks up the formatting!

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Paul1Perth,not sure why but you quoted me,and the thread is to do with Owensfamily?:laugh:


When the power of love overcomes the love of power,the world will know peace ~ Jimi Hendrix

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In answer to the OP just how long at 81 do you expect your mum to be able to make or indeed want to make the long, gruelling trip Down Under with ever encroaching years?

How many QE 2 trips would she be able to make if flying too much. By the way, sea travel is a great way to get ill with all the various bugs floating around. That alone can be very taxing for someone of age.

 

Better to say that you really want to go to Australia and forget justifications of leaving your mum behind. Essentially I suspect that will be the end result.

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My post offered a practical trip to make the journey more palatable for an 81 year old and great to hear that this is an option.

 

As to the rest, I have made no comment on what your mother would prefer or what is better for her, so stop being so defensive, it is you that said she didn't want to visit, not me!

 

Or are you implying your mother is too old to have her own mind now? I wonder if you are trying to sooth your guilty conscience about leaving her and are struggling with that, well I am afraid every migrant has to leave people behind. If you can't stand the heat...

 

Bungo, a lot of what I wrote was in response to Quoll - I also addressed it to you as you had quite rightly mentioned travelling Business maybe more suitable, however your final paragraph in your response above is quite frankly unnecessary and inflammatory - my mother is more than capable of making up her mind, I'm not guilty about leaving her because as I've stated several times Australia or any location is not as important to me as my mum hence I won't be leaving her

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Bungo, a lot of what I wrote was in response to Quoll - I also addressed it to you as you had quite rightly mentioned travelling Business maybe more suitable, however your final paragraph in your response above is quite frankly unnecessary and inflammatory - my mother is more than capable of making up her mind, I'm not guilty about leaving her because as I've stated several times Australia or any location is not as important to me as my mum hence I won't be leaving her

I'm sure you could fly with your Mum to make it easier and see how she manages to give you all an idea

I really hope you can solve this dilema for your family to be all happy wherever you end up


 

....I Actually Live In Australia....And I'm Enjoying Life On The Gold Coast....It Is Possible You Know....

 

 

 

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I'm sure all of you have responded with statements around my mum is too old, should you really be making her do this, etc... are just trying to be realistic and offer genuine advice about the issues but there appears a real agenda of negativity from some. I'm simply looking for others who have had similar experiences with their parent(s) and how they approached/ resolved or didnt resolve the issue of them not wanting to come and visit, maybe if I hadn't mentioned her age I would have received a response to my OP rather than a list of reasons why I shouldn't be trying to "persuade" her because she is too old. I appreciate she is getting on in life, I appreciate the journey is not the greatest, I appreciate the difficulties if events back in England result in having to fly back - my father died suddenly when I was 25, I was on holiday in Ibiza at the time and it wasn't fun and it took me two days before the insurance could find me a flight home and that was only Ibiza!

 

However one thing life has taught me is make the best of what you have, if we go to Australia it will only be with the support of my mum and fact that she will visit, if we don't go I have a great life in the UK and long may it continue - I personally think if you go to Australia in the hope all your problems will be solved your setting yourself up for a shock, as I said in and earlier post its an opportunity, an adventure and something we'd like to try

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