Is the 'Pacific Solution' unravelling?

[flag of convenience]

But as a tax payer who pays into the system you should be entitled to receiving some help especially

With training if that is going to get you back into the work place

 

Certainly was the case in days gone. 457's and mass migration has seen that became somewhat redundant. I'm sure there are/will be procedures in place to occupy the time of unemployed as to not cause ripples in society.

[Paul1Perth]

At least Foot was an intellectual heavyweight, a prominent member of the great post-war Labour Government who, y'know, actually did stuff for the good of the country. Quite unlike the faceless mediocrities involved in modern politics, who are just looking for a nice little directorship somewhere in the City.

 

Trouble was he looked like a clown from a circus and no-one could take him seriously. He never came across as an intellectual heavyweight.

[Paul1Perth]

I'm not sure that's true, to be honest. Although I'm pretty sure that most economic migrants would. And they'd probably make good workers. Honest, competent, reliable. And if you've got a restaurant to run then why not give them a go. The only problem is that it encourages more people to chance their arm, literally. And each one that enters the asylum system puts more strain on that system. Giving asylum is a form of charity. If the donors' generosity is exploited then they are far less likely to donate.

 

All the Maccas I've been to seem to have been staffed by young aussies, or at least people who can speak English as a first language. It's hard enough trying to understand people through that crappy speaker system when they can speak English, it would be nigh on impossible if they had a problem with the language. Maccas want people in and out and served fast, not trying to get someone to understand what you want.

[Harpodom]

Former defence force chief Chris Barrie slams asylum-seeker policy

 

The defence force chief responsible for border protection under the Howard government has slammed the federal government's asylum seeker policy.

Admiral Chris Barrie described detention centres as "jails" and said the policies enacted by Immigration Minister Scott Morrison were a "mess that reflect badly on all of us".

He was speaking at a book launch in Sydney on Thursday.

 

Admiral Chris Barrie at the change of command ceremony in 2002. Photo: Andrew Taylor

 

Admiral Barrie said: "Australians are doing their utmost to extinguish hope, the most powerful of human emotions."

 

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The admiral was chief of the Australian Defence Force between 1998 and 2002. He prepared and oversaw the Howard government's Operation Relex, launched following the Tampa affair and which eventually dealt with several thousand asylum seekers during those years.

Admiral Barrie said the demonising of asylum seekers in Australia's detention centres was a central concern for him.

 

Two asylum seekers, one with an eye injury, leave Manus Island airport following the detention centre violence in which Reza Barati was killed earlier this year. Photo: Nick Moir

 

"I'm not sure we should continue to use the term 'mandatory detention' when we actually mean jail," he said.

"At least in Australian jails the incarcerated have rights of access to legal support and representation. In these jails no such rights exist."

He also accused the department of "double handling" by sending asylum seekers back to Iraq and Syria, and said Immigration Minister Scott Morrison had acknowledged the humanitarian crisis in those countries by setting aside 4400 resettlement places from the war-torn region.

Mr Morrison responded to Admiral Barrie's comments late on Thursday.

"Admiral Chris Barrie has been a consistent critic of the policies that have proven to be so successful. He is entitled to his view but I must respectfully disagree again with his comments," he said.

Criticism of the government's asylum-seeker approach comes amid claims an asylum seeker who contracted severe septicaemia and is now "brain dead" was subject to delays in his initial treatment.

Admiral Barrie has dealt with his share of immigration controversy – he was chief of the defence force during the Children Overboard affair in 2001. At the time, he initially supported government claims that children had been thrown overboard but subsequently recanted, saying there was no evidence to support them.

He has been a vocal critic of the tow-back policy, saying it has put naval personnel at risk. Last December, he said if the Coalition's tow-back policy was implemented, boats would be burnt and sunk and people would end up in the water.

Admiral Barrie was launching a book by international law academics Jane McAdam and Fiona Chong, Refugees: Why Seeking Asylum is Legal and Australia's Policies are Not.

The book asserts that Australia's policies towards asylum seekers are illegal under international law.

It details the "international dismay and bewilderment at Australia's treatment of asylum seekers," author Professor McAdam said.

"This is doing a lot of damage to Australia's reputation as a good international citizen."

She criticised the government for having double standards when it came to international law.

"The Foreign Minister, Julie Bishop, said 'Australia cannot have an island mentality,' in relation to international trade and investment. This is a sentiment that should be applied to a refugee context as well."

Admiral Barrie was also scathing of the Immigration Department's secrecy surrounding border operations.

"Running this in secret does not stack up. We stopped the boats in 2001 without the need for any of it," he said.

He also criticised the cost of Operation Sovereign Borders.

"The current mechanisms for managing asylum seekers does seem to me to be outrageously expensive for a country that was built on immigration."

Last month, Fairfax Media reported that the federal government's failed attempt to return 157 asylum seekers to India cost taxpayers more than $12 million.

The Immigration Minister has defended the government's asylum-seeker policy, saying it is necessary to prevent deaths at sea, of which there have been more than 1500.

 

 

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/former-defence-force-chief-chris-barrie-slams-asylumseeker-policy-20140904-10ccgp.html#ixzz3CPVwt8ve

 

 

[Xenon4017]

All the Maccas I've been to seem to have been staffed by young aussies, or at least people who can speak English as a first language. It's hard enough trying to understand people through that crappy speaker system when they can speak English, it would be nigh on impossible if they had a problem with the language. Maccas want people in and out and served fast, not trying to get someone to understand what you want.

 

The service industry wants people to come in, do the dishes or whatever needs doing, then clock off. They don't need people to moan about doing the job, then chuck a sickie if there's something better on offer that day.

 

I know that's a huge generalization, but there is a grain of truth underlying it. The point is that employment opportunities aren't really being undermined by the influx of refugees. Because a) there aren't many of them relative to the workforce, and b) they are prepared to do the jobs that no one really wants anyway.

[Parley]

Which jobs are you saying the Australian youth refuse to do that asylum seekers would do ?

 

I can't think of any.

[Xenon4017]

Which jobs are you saying the Australian youth refuse to do that asylum seekers would do ?

 

I can't think of any.

 

Generally the ones that are cash in hand, no prospects of promotions and pay rises, don't attract penalty rates, superannuation or holidays. Agriculture and hospitality tend to have these kinds of jobs. But they won't appear on Seek. Look at TingTongMans posts to find plenty of jobs that he does that seemingly aren't over subscribed by Aussies.

[Paul1Perth]

Generally the ones that are cash in hand, no prospects of promotions and pay rises, don't attract penalty rates, superannuation or holidays. Agriculture and hospitality tend to have these kinds of jobs. But they won't appear on Seek. Look at TingTongMans posts to find plenty of jobs that he does that seemingly aren't over subscribed by Aussies.

 

Bit like all the Asian workers they found recently at the big property in Carabooda. From Perth Now below.

 

"MORE than 180 foreign nationals are being questioned after a massive organised crime bust involving nine government agencies in Perth’s north.

 

They were being exploited by other Asians who owned and ran the property. Goes on a lot.

[Parley]

Theyre not real jobs are they.

[Harpodom]

Meanwhile, back to the actual subject...

[Keith and Linda]

Picking bodies out of the water is a real job, but who really likes or wants to be doing that job? best not to have to do it in the first place.

[wakeboard1980]

Generally the ones that are cash in hand, no prospects of promotions and pay rises, don't attract penalty rates, superannuation or holidays. Agriculture and hospitality tend to have these kinds of jobs. But they won't appear on Seek. Look at TingTongMans posts to find plenty of jobs that he does that seemingly aren't over subscribed by Aussies.

Doesn't sound like a legit job to me.

[Xenon4017]

Doesn't sound like a legit job to me.

 

No they're not. They are "real jobs" in that money changes hands, but there's no TFNs involved. However, legit or not, the black economy is part of the economic machinery. If there were no exploitable migrants, would farmers simply offer better conditions and pay? Would they be able to pass on the increased costs to the consumer?

 

There are other legit jobs that have a chronic shortage of applicants. Aged care, for one. Which, whilst legit, it's badly paid and hard work. If you think there's a queue of Aussies wanting to do this, I suggest you go down to your local facility and have a look. I mean that, by the way. A visit to your local aged care to get a glimpse of your possible future will do you no harm whatsoever.

[Wellers and Whitehead]

Theyre not real jobs are they.

 

 

Omg are you for real? Are you so out of touch with reality that you think the jobs above aren't real jobs?? They pay money to put food on the table..you work..you get paid..that's a job..! And most asylum seekers don't resort to this for fear of getting found out and repercussions..I would imagine more backpackers do legit jobs...they have less to lose if they get found out.

[Paul1Perth]

Theyre not real jobs are they.

 

They were real enough for the poor buggers being exploited. Anyway back to the actual subject, Don't think Harpo and flag like it when there's talk of possible illegal immigrants doing dodgy work.:wink:

[Paul1Perth]

No they're not. They are "real jobs" in that money changes hands, but there's no TFNs involved. However, legit or not, the black economy is part of the economic machinery. If there were no exploitable migrants, would farmers simply offer better conditions and pay? Would they be able to pass on the increased costs to the consumer?

 

There are other legit jobs that have a chronic shortage of applicants. Aged care, for one. Which, whilst legit, it's badly paid and hard work. If you think there's a queue of Aussies wanting to do this, I suggest you go down to your local facility and have a look. I mean that, by the way. A visit to your local aged care to get a glimpse of your possible future will do you no harm whatsoever.

 

They might have to downsize their properties and toys a little bit if they paid the going rate to legit workers. The property they raided was a mansion that looked like it would be worth a mill or two.

[flag of convenience]

They were real enough for the poor buggers being exploited. Anyway back to the actual subject, Don't think Harpo and flag like it when there's talk of possible illegal immigrants doing dodgy work.:wink:

 

Wonder why you would think that? You don't half have some odd ideas. Most over stayers if that is what you refer to are Brits anyway. Have worked illegally for shortish periods myself in early twenties so hardly in a position to judge others in low paid, often back breaking jobs.

 

I'm more against the legalised abuse going on as well you are no doubt aware.

[wakeboard1980]

No they're not. They are "real jobs" in that money changes hands, but there's no TFNs involved. However, legit or not, the black economy is part of the economic machinery. If there were no exploitable migrants, would farmers simply offer better conditions and pay? Would they be able to pass on the increased costs to the consumer?

 

There are other legit jobs that have a chronic shortage of applicants. Aged care, for one. Which, whilst legit, it's badly paid and hard work. If you think there's a queue of Aussies wanting to do this, I suggest you go down to your local facility and have a look. I mean that, by the way. A visit to your local aged care to get a glimpse of your possible future will do you no harm whatsoever.

 

Have you been to an aged care facility lately?

[Harpodom]

Explain this away haters, and tell me that the $hit isn't hitting the fan for Operation Sovereign Borders

 

Secret isolation unit used for 'misbehaving' asylum seekers on Manus Island

 

 

The most notorious compound at the Manus Island detention centre does not appear on the official map. The four main compounds, Delta, Foxtrot, Mike and Oscar, are all clearly marked. But not this one.

They call it Chauka, and it is made up of a series of converted shipping containers, each containing a single bed and no windows.

Its official name is the Managed Accommodation Area and it is where "misbehaving" asylum seekers are taken as part of the centre's Behavioural Modification Program.

Source: Internal Transfield Services document

 

Several weeks ago, two of the asylum seekers who were housed in Mike compound had never heard of Chauka. One of them was an eyewitness to the murder of Reza Barati during the night of violence that engulfed the centre in February.

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All that changed when they voiced their opposition to changes to the detention centre policy covering phone and internet access, insisting the changes made it almost impossible to talk to family members in the Middle East.

In a graphic account subsequently posted on Facebook, the Iranian who witnessed Barati's murder said he had been taken to Chauka, fed bread and water for three days and made to sleep on the muddy ground.

Asylum seekers behind wire on Manus Island last year. Photo: Kate Geraghty

 

"We were crying and asking what is our fault?" he wrote on the post. "They said: 'Because you always object to all of our rules'." During their ordeal, the men claim they were cable-tied to chairs and beaten about the body to avoid noticeable bruises. They also assert they were threatened with rape and murder if they did not retract their statements to police on what they saw at the centre on February 17.

Their case was taken up Benjamin Pynt, the director of human rights advocacy for Perth-based Humanitarian Research Partners, who forwarded their complaints to Australian Federal Police and the office of United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. But they seemed to go nowhere.

It was the asylum seekers' word against those running the centre and their allegations of inhumane treatment were dismissed as baseless by Immigration Minister Scott Morrison, who said through a spokesperson that he been advised that "two men became abusive and aggressive and were moved in accordance with operational policy within the centre".

Immigration Minister Scott Morrison.

 

Now, Mr Pynt's calls for an independent examination of what took place have been strengthened with the leaking of dozens of pages of internal documents that describe the circumstances of the two men's transfer to Chauka.

They shed light on the sad, bleak and surreal world inside one of the world's most remote and controversial immigration detention centres.

It is a crowded parallel universe, where common sense ideas for making life more interesting and bearable, such as allowing detainees to cook for themselves or grow vegetables, are seen as potential dangers and forbidden.

A recent glimpse of sleeping arrangements inside the Oscar compound. Photo: Supplied

 

Daily "sitreps" (situation reports) begin with an executive summary of major or critical incidents that took place in the preceding 24-hour period and a "mood indicator" indicating the tension level in the preceding weeks.

It looks like a bushfire alert graphic you might find on the weather pages, except that the temperature gauge relates to levels of anxiety, with anything under 10 denoting calm; between 11 and 12, "unsettled"; between 13 and 14, "agitated"; between 15 and 16, "aggressive" and anything between 17 and 20 "volatile".

A footnote explains that each mood indicator is calculated by "analysing inputs from baseline support monitor engage plans, baseline behavioural management plans, adverse incidents, missed meals and known intelligence reports".

A typical report notes the number of "transferees" who missed all meals in the 24-hour period in each compound, the number of assaults or acts of self-harm, and the number of people on high or moderate "Whiskey Watch".

Whiskey Watch? According to another footnote, "Whiskey Watch is monitoring of a transferee by BMT [the Behavioural management Team]." It explains that Whiskey Watch observations can be "ongoing" (minimum three-hourly checks in); "moderate" (minimum half-hourly checks) and "high" (requiring the detainee to be kept within arms' length or line of sight, depending on the circumstances).

While many are being observed for aggressive or "non-compliant" behaviour, others are being monitored because they have undertaken real or threatened acts of self-harm.

Then there are those among the all-male population who simply appear to have lost it: "Found in toilet naked and semi-conscious," was one description. "Noose discovered in room. Mood appears very low," says another.

The contents of the documents come as no surprise to Dr Peter Young, who until July was director of mental health for International Health and Medical Services (IHMS), the private contractor that provides medical care to detention centres on the Australian mainland, Christmas Island, Nauru and Manus Island.

"What we are talking about here is a total institution where there is no independent scrutiny of what goes on and we know that, within those types of institutions, abusive practices inevitably arise," Dr Young told Fairfax Media.

The incident that prompted the transfer of the two asylum seekers to Chauka is described in the report covering July 14 and 15, with the two men described as "community leaders" within the centre who "behaved in an anti-social manner" during a meeting to discuss new rules covering phone and internet access, prompting the decision to "remove both transferees to the Chauka compound".

Under the heading "Assessment and Outlook", the same report noted that the meeting was "certain" to have unsettled some of the transferees, with the word "certain" given emphasis by the use of bold type.

"The subsequent removal of two transferees to Chauka compound for anti-social behaviour is likely to have unsettled the friends of the transferees removed," it added.

After Fairfax Media reported the Facebook entry and that Pynt had lodged a complaint with the Australian Federal Police and the office of United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, another report, dated August 18, said the men's claims were unsupported and "deliberately misleading to create negative public opinion". But the initial explanation for their transfer to Chauka for "anti-social behaviour" was upgraded. Now it was stated that they had spent "several days" in Chauka for "inciting mass unrest". Having gone public with their claims of torture, the pair previously portrayed as "community leaders" were now described as having an "extensive history" of intimidation and threats and of making false claims about their treatment.

More than 1000 asylum are detained at the centre, but fewer than 80 have been given refugee status interim assessments (41 of them positive). Despite Tony Abbott predicting earlier this year that resettlement in PNG would begin in May, the Papua New Guinea government is yet to approve a refugee policy that might deliver on the formal agreement between the Australian and PNG government that is underpinned by Australian funding.

It was the lack of certainty about their future – indeed the certainty that they would be in detention for a long time with no prospect of resettlement in Australia or a third country – that was a catalyst for the unrest that preceded the violence in February.

In a numbing environment of low or no expectations of resettlement in a country that might offer some opportunity for what might be considered a normal life, those who remain resilient are the exceptions, and attempts to seek out some form of stimulation are viewed as unnatural, and even suspicious.

 

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/secret-isolation-unit-used-for-misbehaving-asylum-seekers-on-manus-island-20140903-10bwol.html#ixzz3CRrP3f1h

 

 

[Guest]

Jesus. It reminds me of the survivors accounts from Cromwell Street in Gloucester when that story came to light in '94. Harrowing to read for most, but no doubt some will defend the indefensible. Perhaps one day, the world will hear the full story of what a so- called first world country ​did to dissuade vulnerable, desperate people from troubling it's border security. Tragic.

[Harpodom]

Jesus. It reminds me of the survivors accounts from Cromwell Street in Gloucester when that story came to light in '94. Harrowing to read for most, but no doubt some will defend the indefensible. Perhaps one day, the world will hear the full story of what a so- called first world country ​did to dissuade vulnerable, desperate people from troubling it's border security. Tragic.

 

For me, the most telling statement is this from Dr Peter Young:

 

"What we are talking about here is a total institution where there is no independent scrutiny of what goes on and we know that, within those types of institutions, abusive practices inevitably arise,"

 

So f'kin true. How many precedents do we need to tell us that this sort of practice is 'unsustainable'?

[wakeboard1980]

FFS

[MARYROSE02]

Why do you always believe the worst when it comes to Aussies who come into contact with alleged refugees in the course of their jobs, whether rescuing them from sea, or working in the camps, but you always believe the best when it comes to the asylum seekers themselves?

 

Maybe that Iraqi or Iranian bloke who became ill may have been a victim of medical malpractice, perhaps he was just unlucky, the same way all of us risk accidents, illness, etc, but we don't all automatically call foro enquiries and inquisitions blaming the authorities.

 

As I just said on another thread, if 'Jihadi John' came to Australia with his family, you would all demand that he be treated as innocent until proven guilty and immediately set free into the community.

[MARYROSE02]

I hope the conditions are as bad as you say they are, though I doubt it. If it really were as bad as that, then nobody would want to come here. It's not supposed to be a hotel.

[Parley]

I can just imagine Harpo, kneeling down wearing an orange jump suit with his hands tied behind his back.

 

Jihadi John is standing behind him wielding a large knife and Harpo is saying "He's just misunderstood really. He's a nice man deep down. It's all Tony Abbott's fault."