pablo Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 What do you mean? Just arsing round,saying take a loan out then disappear:) Probably could have done that myself tbh,wouldn't have needed the hse to sell to get to aus!(it hasn't sold btw) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I don't know anything about pay day loans other than that they are advertised on the TV, same as credit cards, so i don't know why the attitude would change? Obviously there is something I don't know about these type of loans if there is a feeling that it would be okay to default on that type of debt. Credit card companies offer a service. It's a hell of a convenience. I hardly carry cash these days. They charge interest that is reasonable considering their risks. You You have a hell of a lot of protection when you buy using a credit card. Pay day loans (2000% Apr) are scum of the earth who prey upon the vulnerable. They should be illegal and are one step up from loan sharks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Credit card companies offer a service. It's a hell of a convenience. I hardly carry cash these days. They charge interest that is reasonable considering their risks. You You have a hell of a lot of protection when you buy using a credit card. Pay day loans (2000% Apr) are scum of the earth who prey upon the vulnerable. They should be illegal and are one step up from loan sharks. OMG 2000% interest :eek: I don't think I will be asking for one of those in a hurry. TBH, I only use my debit card usually. In fact, I don't have a credit card. Mr MtT has one and I borrow it occasionally (with his permission of course) if I'm making a big purchase but then pay it off when the bill comes as otherwise the interest is mega and Mr MtT is against borrowing money (except of course the mortgage which was a necessary evil). We are a bit old fashioned - don't buy it if you can't afford it types. I didn't realise that the payday loans was such high interest. No wonder people are in so much debt nowadays :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 One pay day lender was charging 4200% interest i read once,interest rates should be limited by gvnmt,thats what they do in Germany i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 As the name suggests they are intended to tide you over til pay day if you are skint. So I expect people only take them out for a few weeks usually. If someone takes one out willingly, knowing the interest and terms then they should obviously pay it back. Unless they were duped in some way, but generally speaking if you willingly enter a contract knowing all the facts, you should honour it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith and Linda Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Would all the holier than thou still hold the same line if we were talking pay day loans rather than credit cards? So somebody who acts legally, works hard at doing the right thing, and you have no idea of their personal history or any hardship they may have gone or are going through, are holier than thou? It is an insult to those that are in debt and are trying to act lawfully and to then condone and even promote others that are in a similar situation to act unlawfully. It is still down to the individual to act in an honest way, and try to live with-in their means, it's not rocket science to work out that if I owe $10 and then borrowing $10 to pay it off is not solving the problem only compounding it. Money, as in credit, has, rightly or wrongly, become all too easy to get these days but most of all we seem to expect and accept this, but we cannot keep blaming the lenders, we should know or at least find out the terms of any such credit from any lender be it bank, payday, or shark, and work out for ourselves whether we can afford such terms for that credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newjez Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 So somebody who acts legally, works hard at doing the right thing, and you have no idea of their personal history or any hardship they may have gone or are going through, are holier than thou? It is an insult to those that are in debt and are trying to act lawfully and to then condone and even promote others that are in a similar situation to act unlawfully. It is still down to the individual to act in an honest way, and try to live with-in their means, it's not rocket science to work out that if I owe $10 and then borrowing $10 to pay it off is not solving the problem only compounding it. Money, as in credit, has, rightly or wrongly, become all too easy to get these days but most of all we seem to expect and accept this, but we cannot keep blaming the lenders, we should know or at least find out the terms of any such credit from any lender be it bank, payday, or shark, and work out for ourselves whether we can afford such terms for that credit. I have two friends, A and B. Back in the year 2000, friend A went crazy and started borrowing and buying property. He borrowed and bought everything he could, knowing full well that if it went pear shaped hewould just go bankrupt. Friend B was more conservative. He thought property was in a bubble, so he sold his flat. Many years later, Friend A spots the GFC and sells everything. He is mega rich. After the GFC, Friend B got made redundant and moved back in with his parents. Who is right or wrong here, if anyone is, and how does this differ from the credit card example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith and Linda Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I have two friends, A and B. Back in the year 2000, friend A went crazy and started borrowing and buying property. He borrowed and bought everything he could, knowing full well that if it went pear shaped hewould just go bankrupt. Friend B was more conservative. He thought property was in a bubble, so he sold his flat. Many years later, Friend A spots the GFC and sells everything. He is mega rich. After the GFC, Friend B got made redundant and moved back in with his parents. Who is right or wrong here, if anyone is, and how does this differ from the credit card example? We all have friends or know some A & B's and we can all come up with differing stories to suit our own arguments. But in your example A it would appear was aware of and prepared to accept the consequence's of his actions (bankruptcy) but was prepared to take the risk and someone was prepared to loan him the money on that risk, because they would have assessed the risk against the current market, ultimately his risk paid dividends so that both he and the lender were happy. had it gone the other way then both parties would have lost to a lessor or greater degree, but A would have difficulty in gaining credit in the future, thus stuffing himself up for a while. Friend B we assume sold his flat for a profit, he doesn't appear to have spent it, has no debt and now lives cheaply with his parents. Sorry but I fail to see how this has anything to do with credit card debt, and I also fail to see any real reason to condemn either A or B's lifestyle choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thediggler Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I think this thread has lost its direction somewhat. Do we really need anymore posts arguing the ethics of getting into debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith and Linda Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I think this thread has lost its direction somewhat. Do we really need anymore posts arguing the ethics of getting into debt? It may well have lost it's direction but surely you must agree that it is totally wrong for someone to give advice that's its ok to act not only irresponsibly but illegally too, and it is that which I can not let pass without putting it to rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thediggler Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Never mind, argue away....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith and Linda Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Never mind, argue away....... hope the fence is not too painful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 That story is irrelevant to the topic. We all make investment decisions through our lifetime. So what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misstatt Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I left page 3 and went to the last page to see if pointless moralistic arguing had ended but no. Some useful helpful posts from people though so that's great as it's examples from others who have gone through different scenarios that help when making tricky decisions. Although some may think about clearing off and leaving the debt, and hence reading such posts, it doesn't mean that they will go on to do so (their choice, no judgement) but are in the process of mulling it over and seeking info. That's what the forum is for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si T Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Unbelievable how another of these threads has degenerated from a simple request for advice on whether the OP can pay a credit card from here to an us versus them on the moral judgement of leaving debt in the UK. All this because of a simple statement that there it can be left which didn't either approve of this step or not but was a simple offer to provide information to help people if they wished to find out more. Good on him as far as I am concerned. Why is the decision to leave the debt a moral decision as opposed to a straight commercial decision? If I had debt in the UK which I wanted to leave because it made commercial sense for me to do so then I would and without a single guilty feeling on my part. Maybe its my background as an Accountant which allows me to view money dispassionately. I worked for one of the major banks just prior to the GFC and ended up being made redundant because of it. Did the bank feel that they had a moral obligation to keep me employed due to the financial trouble being of their own making or did they make a commercial decision that best suited what they needed at the time? I have long been of the opinion that the individual has as much right to make decisions based upon commercial impact as the large corporate does as long as they entered the initial agreement in good faith with the intention of fulfilling the terms of the contract. Those of you who sit in judgement of those who may have chosen to not continue to pay their debt without any knowledge of their personal situations need to take some time to reflect on why exactly you feel you have the right to do so. I have helped numerous newly bankrupted people in the past to get their lives back on track and in almost every case the biggest immediate benefit is that they can get a good night's sleep for the first time in a long, long time. Do you really think the lender loses any sleep as they are completing their insurance claim forms so that they get their funds back? Or the insurance company when they are completing the re-insurance claim form to make sure they are not left too far out of pocket. By the way Pabs, superb spot of fishing there mate. Got some crackers in the net. Before anyone decides to jump on me for my views please check my signature. These are my opinions and I am not really bothered whether you agree with them or not. The same as I would expect you to feel about whether I agree with yours. To the OP, I have been paying my own credit cards since we arrive 2 1/2 years ago and they are almost finished so it can be done. However, if I felt it necessary over the last couple of years to leave them in order to ensure that my family didn't suffer financially too much then I would have done so without a second's thought. Good lcuk Si Edited June 19, 2014 by Si T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 This is exactly why we need to assess people's character before granting them a visa. So morals are out the window these days, all that counts is a commercial decision. Okay so theft is okay, ripping off pensioners - no problem. Why should anyone worry about morals as long as they enrich themselves. I am totally disgusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si T Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) Would being sanctimonious be classed as a positive or negative? Theft is illegal as is Fraud. Using pensioners is a cheap and grossly inaccurate attempt to take the moral high ground. You and I both know that the subject revolves around major corporate lenders. To try and imply anything else cheapens your argument. As I stated previously the original decision has to be made ethically and morally. Is judging others without knowing their situations morally acceptable then???? Edited June 19, 2014 by Si T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If you borrow money, refuse to pay it back despite being able to do so that is theft. However you spin it, you have effectively stolen the money. If you legitimately can't pay, they is different, but you are saying it is a commercial decision, morals don't come into it. So that is theft in my book. I'm sure most accountants would not be so unethical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si T Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Please don't question my ethics. That is simply unnecessarily insulting and uncalled for. If you wish to get personal then this can very quickly degenerate int0 a pointless name calling exercise. I would prefer a structured conversation but it is up to you. The commercial decision is not whether you wish to pay but whether you are able to pay. Maybe I should have made that clearer. I have seen too many people suffer severe mental anguish over the years over whether they can pay the debt due to the perceived moral views of others that it has taken them a long time to recover their health even after the financial side of things have been resolved. You are incorrect that the money has been stolen. As long as the agreement was made in good faith and you have made a concerted attempt to pay the debt then a person struggling to make those payments should never be afraid to take such a final drastic step for fear of being called a thief where the alternative is continuing concerted mental anguish. If you genuinely believe that they should then it isn't my ethics which should be in question is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Well you are changing your tune a bit. You stated nothing of the sort in your original post. Anyway if that hypothetical person was that poor it is unlikely they could afford to move to Australia. As others have pointed out, if they are struggling to pay the ethical thing to do is approach the company about a payment plan. Running away is not the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si T Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It looks like we are not going to agree on this so best of we leave it at that. You seem more intent on scoring points with personal comments so this conversation is not worth continuing. I didn't change my tune. I attempted to clarify the point I was making because I realised that I hadn't made it clearly enough and it needed that clarification. Who is to say that the hypothetical person hadn't already moved to Australia and circumstances since then meant that they had to make a choice? It must be nice to be able to see life in such black and white stark reality and be so sure of your ethical place in the world. My experiences in helping people in these situations has unfortunately taught me that life is very rarely that simple. I don't charge a fee for it either before you try and question my ethics again. I sincerely hope you never find yourself in this situation. How would you possibly be able to live with yourself if you had to declare yourself bankrupt through no fault of your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I don't have a problem with anyone declaring bankruptcy when in dire financial straits. What I have been arguing against is the suggestion that if you move to Aus, it is easy to get away without paying your UK debt, therefore why pay, if you can't be caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Anyway, we obviously don't agree, so will leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si T Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 But you and others make sweeping generalisations which do not make that clear. If you did then these threads wouldn't degenerate the way they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parley Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Your statement.. If I had debt in the UK which I wanted to leave because it made commercial sense for me to do so then I would and without a single guilty feeling on my part. No mention of financial hardship just a commercial decision. So yes I did (and do) question your ethics in this regard. Is this what you recommend to your clients ? Maybe I need you to do my tax. I'm sure you could get me a massive refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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