AHPRA and why UK Diploma Nurses shouldn't bother applying

[Guest TheJinkIsBack]

Hi folks, I'm new to this forum so please be gentle. This may seem long-winded but please bear with me...

I've seen plenty of threads discussing AHPRA with lots of puzzled/frustrated applicants so I thought I would gain as much information from them prior to siphoning our bank account on an application. I wanted to help others with my findings too - hence, this new thread. Here goes...

I've been having a "discussion" with AHPRA (and other users) on Twitter regarding my wife and her potential registration.

My wife has a Dip-He in Adult Nursing and five years post-grad experience (qualified 2009) in Stroke & ICU - Critical Care. We "were" intending to emigrate on a temporary visa and then go for permanent a couple of years later. However, with the recent "assessment" changes (in October 2013, implemented Feb 2014), AHPRA want Australian Degree qualified nurses (or equivalent to Level 7 on the AQA framework scale)... I guess you all know the drill there.

Anyway, back to my twitter discussion...

I have raised the question (more than once) why a Dip-He qualification and five years experience is no longer sufficient and their reply is the usual IQNMs are the way forward and working experience is not part of their assessment (feel free to check my Twitter feed). Therefore, the Dip-He will probably be classified as a Level 5 on the AQA scale - So no luck there.

I questioned how a newly qualified nurse (with a degree) with no working experience could possibly be viewed as a better candidate for registration over someone with five years experience. I'm still waiting for an adequate response to that one.

In addition, a tweet from AHPRA to another twitter user states the NMBA does NOT accept ANMACs assessments for registration purposes. When ANMAC say a Dip-He is equivalent to Australian Degree it means absolutely nothing to AHPRA for registration (just like the song - Oh Vienna).

I've also raised the question if the UK & Australia have reciprocal healthcare agreements for tourists, which they currently do then why is it ok for an Australian national to be treated in the UK but if the nurse (with a Dip-HE) treating the Australian national decides to apply to AHPRA, s/he is basically incompetent. The intellectual at AHPRA didn't quite grasp my point.

In conclusion...

1. Dip-He nurses - You're not welcome, seriously! Save yourself the fees ($520)

2. AHPRA does not currently acknowledge ANMACs assessments. Save yourself the $900 assessment fee.

3. If you have a Dip-He and want to "top-up" to a Degree, I guess you'll need to fund it yourself. Don't be surprised to be quoted around £2,700 in the UK or even more on an Australian "Bridging Program".

4. The only valid reason to be assessed by ANMAC is for the extra 10-15 points for the permanent visa application. However, if you've still "only" got a Dip-He, the assessment still won't gain AHPRA registration. If you're happy with that, good luck to you.

5. If you've a Dip-He, don't bother with the English test because even if you were to score 10's, your Dip-He qualifications aren't good enough (save £125 there).

Taking into consideration all of the above points, we are saving just over £3,500 by not bothering. That's excluding the Visa fees, medicals, flights...

Until things change... Good luck Australia in filling those nursing posts.

Paddy.

P.s I've nothing against degrees. If you've got one... Fantastic, genuinely, well done, I know how difficult it is. My gripe here is against common sense and people being ripped off.

[ceridwyn]

Your reasoning is flawed. Countries have always assessed overseas nurses on their own nurses criteria, except Australia, who seemed to take take on any country's nursing education, 'hey what your an RN over there, come over no worries'

However, Australian nursibg education went to degree level and became comprehensive, meaning no nursing streams, no mental health undergrad, in the early 90's. Nurses who want to be mental health, paeds, icu, Ed do so after the undergrad degree, get some experience in it then do a post grad degree.

 

Nursing in Australia went this way because of our wide range of nursing environments. You want to work in mental health/paeds in rural/remote areas then you must need to know about general nursing as well being in much smaller populations and remote from everthing. On the othet hand mental gealth is quite prominent in the Australian nursing degree for this very reason.

So by taking Uk educated nurses in they are fross cutting how Austealian nurses are educated for Australuan environment and are often city job placed. Thats not where the jobs are for nurses.

 

So on the other hand Australian educated nurses are now not excepted in the UK as we are comprehensive educated and ghsts not what yhe NMC want fot the UK ditto! AND THEY TAKE OUR MONEY PRONTO and take 12-18 months to tell us we are nit wanted. Maybe we should jump up and down and threaten legal action and claim the mother country owes us something and we have rights there to work as seems to be the theme coming across in all these pom in oz nursing forums.

Do not worry about the nursing shortage at the mo enough US and Fil nurses to fill the gaps. As for the health agreements between the 2 countries, whats tbst got to do with nursing education? So you guys need to ask the NHS and the NMC just why they do not like Aussie nurses, and put us in the same basket as nurses from every other country in the world for asssessment same as Ahpra has done to UK nurses, seems to be natural justice.

Pity have worked with and been thankful for some wonderful nurses from the UK but as you see the nursing education is not the same as seen by the NMC judt over 12 months ago so close the gate and Australia no longer obviously does not feel the need to give Uk nursing applicants a different assessment tothe rest of the world and the UK to the colony ditto. Sorry for the aanguish given to those but times have changed. Now goodbye

[bigmac]

I can fully understand your frustration & annoyance but has anyone actually been refused registration or been given the condition of doing a bridging programme since the new criteria was introduced? Or is it still speculation that those with a diploma will be refused?

[Guest TheJinkIsBack]

Ceridwyn, I understand your allegiance to your nation and Health Service etc. However, I feel the need to reply to your post as I think you have misunderstood my intentions.

 

First of all, my reasoning is completely substantial and I wish to inform others of potential obstacles. I wholeheartedly agree with reform and regulation et al, in order to make patients safer whilst receiving the best care available. Yet, a little bit of common sense should prevail.

 

Saying that, REGARDLESS of country of origin, if and when a person gained qualification as an RN (e.g 2009) surely that should suffice taking into consideration continued professional development and experience. Please enlighten me how a newly qualified without any experience other than placements can better that?

 

I'll give you an example... My wife works in an Acute setting (Stroke & ICU - Critical Care) and on several occasions, has spotted the early signs of strokes in Critical Care patients (i.e. not on the Stroke ward). Newly qualified nurses don't usually pick those up without experience. I'm not suggesting my wife is a superhero, just an example where experience counts. BTW, the need for Stroke nurses in Australia is still extremely high.

 

Anyway, back on point... The UK has provided two streams to RN for a considerable time. One being the Dip-HE and the other, Degree (both three-year courses). The difference being (besides six modules less) a bursary was provided for the Dip-HE. That changed around 2011-2012 enabling Degree students to receive a bursary too, which is why there are differing qualifications here. So, my logic pre-degree bursary (i.e. Dip-HE qualified, with experience) shouldn't be at a disadvantage. That is my belief even if it were an Australian nurse.

 

Further to that, I agree certain elements of nursing in the UK is different to Australia. I.e. you have far more dangerous wildlife etc, and I would naturally expect a UK qualified nurse to engage in some form of education regarding those - that's a no-brainer. However, A & E, Surgical, Medical, Critical Care, Stroke, Community, Rehab, Mental Health (and probably others) will be relatively similar. So wildlife aside, your Health Service isn't really much different.

 

Whilst I agree there are many positions in rural Australia, there are bound to be considering the size of it. However, there still are positions to be filled in metro areas. Otherwise, why are at least two new hospitals being built (very near completion) in and around Perth?

 

Your grievance with the NMC is understandable but your reciprocal healthcare arguement isn't. You have the same principle that my agenda is with AHPRA so we are both calling the same side of the coin but from different nations. So in order to clarify my Healthcare agreement, consider this:

 

The UK & Australian Governments provide the legislature and frameworks in order for their relative Healthcare and NMC - AHPRA to function. They mutually agree (not just the Governments but healthcare providers too) that tourists from either nation, subject to tourist visa requirements, are eligible to free healthcare if required in either nation. Taking that into consideration, BOTH governments and healthcare providers are putting good faith in the competency of their respective healthcare workers.

 

If for example, an employee from AHPRA was on holiday in the UK and had an accident, heart attack or stroke, that person would be cared for by an RN - A fully qualified one! The same would be if an employee of the NMC was in Australia. I would argue the same for either side. I'm not naive to suggest otherwise. So my argument is, REGARDLESS of nation, if there is a reciprocal healthcare agreement between two nations then if EITHER healthcare employees wish to work in the other nation then I would have thought if they had RN status in their respective country it should be enough, especially if they have considerable experience. If that wasn't enough (i.e. Dip_HE qualifications) then why have "good faith" with a reciprocal healthcare agreement? Clearly, I would view it differently if there was no healthcare agreement because there would be no "good faith" issue.

 

Your comment regarding "Colony" is nothing short of petulant. Those days have long gone and for the record, I'm Irish and of Irish origin so politically, Ireland had been a colony too. Therefore, I'd suggest you jump off that bandwagon. It really does nothing to provide any credence to your counter argument.

 

Returning to my opening post, I was merely pointing out the hurdles in our situation, and anyone else in a similar position to consider how they spend their hard-earned money (probably doing long days, nights and bank shifts like my wife has done) on any attempt to register with AHPRA.

 

Currently, it seems futile!

[Guest TheJinkIsBack]

Bigmac,

 

I'm led to believe there has been no (or very little) registrations from the UK since October 2013 due to the recent changes. AHPRA have a huge backlog of applications. Factor that and renewals at the end of May, you're looking at a long waiting times.

 

My wife has a friend that currently lives in Sydney (with whom she worked with in the UK) that applied in October 2013 and is still waiting for her application to be processed.

 

She also has the Dip-HE and has three years experience. I'm led to believe she is working as an "assistant" to a newly qualified and is not allowed to directly treat patients. The irony is, the newly qualified is struggling and my wife's' friend is literally mentoring her!

 

Regardless, whilst she is working in those circumstances (i.e. unable to treat patients) the poor girl will slowly begin to lose her skills she already has. Yet, the skills she has are desired.

 

It's crazy!

[JB78]

I think australia is looking to reduce the amount of nurses from abroad, so they're raising the standards and limitting the amount of people able to apply.

 

It looks like Australians aren't that keen on foreign nurses anymore.

 

http://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/federal-government-review-457-visa-for-nurses-in-australia

[Ned Kelly]

Very well put posts jink , one problem i have with the folk at AHPRA is the fact they continue to take $$$$$'s. They receive applications from Dip He nurses/midwives and take the payment. Surely if they have no intention of granting registration, they should refund any payment. A simple glance at the form would tell them degree or Dip He and no body would be out of pocket. As for the Dip He being classed as a level 5 on the AQA scale, this i cant see happening. The Dip He course is 3 years in length and was sufficient prior to october 2013.

[Guest TheJinkIsBack]

Thank you Ned,

 

I can only assume this is why there have been no (or little) registrations since October 2013, I guess there will be discussions going on whether they are level 5, 6 or 7.

 

Maybe the people at AHPRA could put some case studies on their site or better still, a simple table giving prospective applicants an idea whether their application has a chance of success. Obviously, there would be caveats attached. It's not really rocket science is it?

[Ned Kelly]

I cant see the folk at AHPRA doing anything that might clarify things i dont think its in their DNA. With regards to the AQF frame work, if the AQF say a three year full time course is level 7 then Dip He must be equivalent to oz bachelor degree.

[bigmac]

Someone on another forum has posted that their friend has had their registration turned down. The reason they were given is that they had a Diploma In Nursing!

[Guest NuriootpaSA]

There are a couple of other issues here, that just show how Australians work.

 

They take O/S Nurses money, KNOWING that the minute they read "Diploma" they are going to get refused registration - so why not:

 

a) Make it clear on their web site that UK Diploma is NOT accepted, and holders of that qualification should not apply;

b) Point this out within 2 minutes of picking up the applicant's CV and arrange to refund the fees.

 

However, it's not just UK nurses who are paying out fees for nothing...

 

The IRON programme is a Bridging Course, held in Australia, for O/S nurses who wish to upgrade their "skills" to Australian standards, and at the end, they receive AHPRA registration. I believe this course costs in the region of $10k. It is especially aimed at Indian/Sri Lankan/Philipino nurses.

 

The irony is, that once registered, these "Australian garduates" are unlikely to get offered a position in Australia (unless they happen to have PR) and as they are on short stay study/business visas, they usually run out of time and have to go home. Aussie hospitals won't sponsor the because in their eyes, the O/S IRON graduates are no different to Australia's own graduates, and they, of course, don't need sponsoring.

 

I'm also confused by the so called standard of Australian degrees. I have a BA Hons from UNISA and when I sent it to be compared in the UK, it was worth only 66% of a comarable degree in the UK - degree, not Hons. So why they are being so precious about their education standards is a bit odd.

 

On the other hand, I know several Aussie nurses who are registered and working in the UK, both in the NHS and Private hospitals, so to say they are not welcome is ridiculous.

[Guest NuriootpaSA]

 

@JB78 - its AHPRA who are messing about. Hospitals are still considering UK Diploma nurses because they haven't been informed by AHPRA that they shouldn't.

[picto1]

Nicely written

[rosiew]

There is growing pressure in the media from the nurses union to stop 457 visas being given to nurses when Australian graduates are struggling to find placement after graduation. Anyone planning on that route may be advised to get a wriggle on.

[Petals]

Reading paper today I am wondering if they will get nurses from overseas soon as we seem to have many many many nurses coming out of university and not being able to get graduate positions here. This is a disaster and they need a job first to get the experience. We cannot ignore our own graduate nurses. They should take priority.

[ali]

There is growing pressure in the media from the nurses union to stop 457 visas being given to nurses when Australian graduates are struggling to find placement after graduation. Anyone planning on that route may be advised to get a wriggle on.

 

I have noticed job advertisements saying that preference will be given to Australian citizens and permanent residents. 457's are expensive for employers if the person wants to return.

[Que Sera Sera]

Reading paper today I am wondering if they will get nurses from overseas soon as we seem to have many many many nurses coming out of university and not being able to get graduate positions here. This is a disaster and they need a job first to get the experience. We cannot ignore our own graduate nurses. They should take priority.

Spot on this is just absolute common sense, in any profession. Not nice maybe for those still wanting to come but Australia has to look after its own first.

[kellyv]

The issue is that lots of UK nurses have applied for and been granted PR - all of which is of no cost to Australia, only the applicant - and are awaiting registration whilst Ahpra keep moving the goalposts. These nurses have their skills assessed as suitable by Anmac therefore are granted visas but then the same skills are questioned when applying for registration. If Australia doesn't want nurses then why are DIBP keeping us on the SOL?!

[ayrshire2oz]

ANMAC

 

The National Board has appointed the Australian Nursing and Midwifery Accreditation Council (ANMAC) as the independent national accreditation authority for nursing and midwifery for the next five years. This covers the period 1 July 2013 to 30 June 2018. In accordance with the National Law, ANMAC is responsible for the:development and implementation of accreditation standards for programs of study leading to registration as an enrolled nurse, registered nurse and midwife and endorsement, and*accreditation of programs of study leading to registration and endorsement.The National Board is then responsible for the approval of the ANMAC accreditation standards and the accredited programs of study leading to registration and endorsement.

 

Hey guys ive noticed the amount of uncertainty about registration maybe this can put your minds at rest a little, I came across this on the NMBA site

[ayrshire2oz]

So nmba who are part of ahpra have appointed anmac. The same organisation who assess skills for migration purposes.

[Guest NuriootpaSA]

So nmba who are part of ahpra have appointed anmac. The same organisation who assess skills for migration purposes.

 

So, this NEXT BEST THING starts next month? Will ANMAC stick by their OWN guidelines, or will they be forced into adopting those of AHPRA?

 

As far as I'm aware, these current issues only relate to Diploma qualified nurses. Registered Nurses with a degree, including those from the UK, are still being heavily recruited in Australia, especially by Private Hospitals. The majority (though not all) of these positions are still offering 457 sponsorship.

 

New Australian Graduate's are being offered specific opportunities - ie Post Grad positions - to assist them into the jobs that they seek. My understanding is that there are several hundreds of these opportunities and that they are ONLY open to Australian Nursing graduates. In the meantime, there is a chronic shortage of experienced, qualified Nurses, especially in the fields of Midwifery, Scrub/Scout, Anaesthetics/Recovery, Oncology/Chemotherapy, Cath Labs, Emergency Department and ICU.

 

I'm just hoping that AHPRA's stand is not part of a political agenda because the only people who will suffer in the end, are sick Australian's, who really don't mind where their nurses come from, as long as they can deliver the treatment and care that they need.

[ceridwyn]

ANMAC

 

The National Board has appointed the Australian Nursing and Midwifery Accreditation Council (ANMAC) as the independent national accreditation authority for nursing and midwifery for the next five years. This covers the period 1 July 2013 to 30 June 2018. In accordance with the National Law' date=' ANMAC is responsible for the:development and implementation of accreditation standards for programs of study leading to registration as an enrolled nurse, registered nurse and midwife and endorsement, and*accreditation of programs of study leading to registration and endorsement.The National Board is then responsible for the approval of the ANMAC accreditation standards and the accredited programs of study leading to registration and endorsement.

 

Hey guys ive noticed the amount of uncertainty about registration maybe this can put your minds at rest a little, I came across this on the NMBA site[/quote']

 

 

The other part of ANMAC job Is to accredit Australian nursing education programs to Australian competencies nothing to do with overseas applications. If you see the starting date that it officially began this role is JULY 2013!!

[ayrshire2oz]

Ah well,

just have to wait for AHPRA to do it's thing

 

What is it the Aussies say "she'll be right!"

[kellyv]

The other part of ANMAC job Is to accredit Australian nursing education programs to Australian competencies nothing to do with overseas applications. If you see the starting date that it officially began this role is JULY 2013!!

 

Yes...don't they also accredit the IRON bridging course? So wouldn't it be ridiculous if UK nurses have to do that when ANMAC have already verified the qualifications as equivalent to bachelor degree....hmmmm.......slightly incongruent don't you think?

[Guest NuriootpaSA]

Yes...don't they also accredit the IRON bridging course? So wouldn't it be ridiculous if UK nurses have to do that when ANMAC have already verified the qualifications as equivalent to bachelor degree....hmmmm.......slightly incongruent don't you think?

 

Yes, and it's almost impossible to get a job as an IRON graduate UNLESS you have PR or have post grad experience in the "west".