Katie22 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I have been following this thread intermittently and a few things spring to mind. It annoys me at the moment in the UK that I work 60+ hours per week (admittedly from home so no commute or childcare costs, but crazy hours, working till 1/2 am each day) and there are people who have never worked and are generational claimants. I have met people who are desperate to work and equally, I know people that have no intention of ever getting a job. I can completely appreciate where @Rupert is coming from here. The tone of some of the posts seems to be that higher wage earners should support the people who don't work. The actual words aren't there, it's the tone. Of course, as a society we all have a responsibility to look after those less fortunate than us, especially the most vulnerable in society; the disabled, the elderly and children. But does that mean that we should take the food out of our own children's mouths in order to give to other people's children? In the UK, I have a lovely lifestyle. I live in a big house, can afford to buy what I want, when I want etc., etc. I know that when we move to Aus, that lifestyle will take a hit as I've promised my children (rather stupidly) that I won't work until they go up to Senior High School. That's fine, I'm going in to it with my eyes open, knowing that careful budgeting is the way forward. But I had children knowing that I could support them. I had them knowing that if things went south between Mr MtT and myself, I could afford to pay the mortgage and bills on my own. I've always worked and had seven children and living so far from my family, not had family to turn too and struggled. But I never once said to Mr MtT it's okay we can get benefits. Because that's not okay (to me). Benefits to help top up your income are one thing, benefits to give you a living are another. I feel so sorry for the lady in the example as it seems to me that she wants to work so badly. But (and you will all shoot me down now) she shouldn't have had children until she knew she could support them. I'm not in the same position as Rupert. I wasn't brought up in poverty by any stretch of the imagination but I was brought up in a family of migrants who worked hard for what they had and I was taught that the only way I would ever get anywhere in life was to work hard (or marry a rich man; I chose Mr MtT!!). I don't agree that the tone of this thread is against high income earners at all, I get the impression that most of it is against the $7 copayment and the drastic cuts to family tax and benefits. Sure I'll admit I got a little uptight hearing from people insinuating that times are hard when they earn about $120,000 more than me - and there was me feeling sorry for people who earn less than me! This budget is not only attacking welfare recipients, it is attacking people who work and have low incomes - YES they work! So do you think that's right that they should be penalised? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I don't agree that the tone of this thread is against high income earners at all, I get the impression that most of it is against the $7 copayment and the drastic cuts to family tax and benefits. Sure I'll admit I got a little uptight hearing from people insinuating that times are hard when they earn about $120,000 more than me - and there was me feeling sorry for people who earn less than me! This budget is not only attacking welfare recipients, it is attacking people who work and have low incomes - YES they work! So do you think that's right that they should be penalised? No of course I don't think it's right but then I don't think it's right that people who earn more should have more slashed off their salaries either. Unfortunately, the Government, as all Governments do, will do what they think is right and sod everyone else. I think it's quite shocking that bulk billing will go as clearly, there's a need for it as people utilise it. I also think however that there are possibly people utilising the bulk billing system that could afford to pay for their GP appointment and this is clearly a misuse of the service too. It's the same as this initiative that the UK want to bring in whereby people will pay for their GP appointments (after having paid national insurance already). From one point of view I think it will be good as I've worked in GP surgeries previously and I know how many people do not attend for their appointments and I think it will help to reduce these wasted appointments and potentially cut down waiting times to see a doctor but on the other hand, I wonder how the people who are living close to the breadline will afford to go to the doctor and worry that A&E departments and walk in clinics will be overstretched. I also worry that people won't go to the GP and possibly life threatening conditions won't be picked up on. Either way, it's a worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Pom Queen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Ok one person is having a night away, please lets keep away from personal digs now. Thanks all :hug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie22 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 No of course I don't think it's right but then I don't think it's right that people who earn more should have more slashed off their salaries either. Unfortunately, the Government, as all Governments do, will do what they think is right and sod everyone else. I think it's quite shocking that bulk billing will go as clearly, there's a need for it as people utilise it. I also think however that there are possibly people utilising the bulk billing system that could afford to pay for their GP appointment and this is clearly a misuse of the service too. It's the same as this initiative that the UK want to bring in whereby people will pay for their GP appointments (after having paid national insurance already). From one point of view I think it will be good as I've worked in GP surgeries previously and I know how many people do not attend for their appointments and I think it will help to reduce these wasted appointments and potentially cut down waiting times to see a doctor but on the other hand, I wonder how the people who are living close to the breadline will afford to go to the doctor and worry that A&E departments and walk in clinics will be overstretched. I also worry that people won't go to the GP and possibly life threatening conditions won't be picked up on. Either way, it's a worry. That's certainly what Mr Abbott is doing! I have absolutely no issues with high income earners but I think that they have less to complain about after this budget than the low income earners. Take away their debt tax and they can still afford their mortgages, bills and still put money aside for a rainy day. Take away my family tax B and I can still pay my bills and keep afloat but I will miss it - BUT I refuse to make out I'm hard done by as it's my contribution as I've said before - so if I'm not moaning then I don't quite get why high income earners are whingeing. All they say is why should they pay for the dole bludgers - everyone should work blah blah blah! I want to get rid of dole bludgers too but not at the expense of other innocent people. And here in australia it's usually only the concession card holders, patients on low incomes or people who have sympathetic GPs that get bulk billed, the rest of us who can afford it pay a copayment anyway so the liberals are specifically targeting these people. And they are also making cuts to the health service too so just stupid really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 That's certainly what Mr Abbott is doing! I have absolutely no issues with high income earners but I think that they have less to complain about after this budget than the low income earners. Take away their debt tax and they can still afford their mortgages, bills and still put money aside for a rainy day. Take away my family tax B and I can still pay my bills and keep afloat but I will miss it - BUT I refuse to make out I'm hard done by as it's my contribution as I've said before - so if I'm not moaning then I don't quite get why high income earners are whingeing. All they say is why should they pay for the dole bludgers - everyone should work blah blah blah! I want to get rid of dole bludgers too but not at the expense of other innocent people. And here in australia it's usually only the concession card holders, patients on low incomes or people who have sympathetic GPs that get bulk billed, the rest of us who can afford it pay a copayment anyway so the liberals are specifically targeting these people. And they are also making cuts to the health service too so just stupid really. I think a few posters who are overseas, are commenting without really understanding the system as well they might if they were here, or had lived here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I'm not sure who are referring to as posters not having lived there. I can't remember ever having denied myself treatment whilst over there because of the cost, but I do know that if I'm suddenly ill on Tuesday I may not get a GP appointment for a week or so and therefore will have to either to a walk in clinic or A&E. I don't recall ever having been in the position in Australia where I couldn't get a GP appointment. Although perhaps I was healthier then......but I don't see the GP that much now, maybe once a year if that........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The tone of some of the posts seems to be that higher wage earners should support the people who don't work. The actual words aren't there, it's the tone. I haven't had the time to read all the posts but....the anger in Oz is that the government has declared that we are all expected to do the "heavy lifting" in solving a budget "emergency" when, in reality, the poorer sectors of society are expected to sacrifice 5-20% of their income (as calculated by independent economists) whereas the wealthier sectors are being targeted for less than 1% - I think the figure was 0.02 - 0.05% (and are already finding tax loopholes to avoid it altogether). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MovingtoTasmania Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I haven't had the time to read all the posts but....the anger in Oz is that the government has declared that we are all expected to do the "heavy lifting" in solving a budget "emergency" when, in reality, the poorer sectors of society are expected to sacrifice 5-20% of their income (as calculated by independent economists) whereas the wealthier sectors are being targeted for less than 1% - I think the figure was 0.02 - 0.05% (and are already finding tax loopholes to avoid it altogether). Sadly, richer/wealthier people will always try to find a way of avoiding tax and my family constantly call me stupid as I'm (not happy) okay with paying what is my due. I have never thought to myself, let me try to fiddle things, it's not my nature and I don't understand people who do have this mentality, just as I don't understand people who are generational claimants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 If only we had realized just how good Rudd and Gillard were, then we wouldn't have got,ourselves in this mess, and all voted for Abbott! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARYROSE02 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 No more bludgers. Why should I,work though? Haven't I done enough at 60? Let a 20 yo do my job and I can get disability pension for being anxious,and,depressed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 If only we had realized just how good Rudd and Gillard were, then we wouldn't have got,ourselves in this mess, and all voted for Abbott! We didn't all vote for Abbott. The Liberals actually received fewer first preference votes than Labor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 No more bludgers. Why should I,work though? Haven't I done enough at 60? Let a 20 yo do my job and I can get disability pension for being anxious,and,depressed? What's happened to your use of commas MR, you've gone,a,bit,weird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishgirl1 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The points made by Rupert are, in my opinion, spot on. From my perspective, I think the budget is needed. It does not go nearly far enough in cutting waste from bureaucracy, but it does address vital issues of basic budgeting. We have an entitlement society, it is very different from the society I knew in Australia in the late 1960's, where old-fashioned approaches to life were normal - you spend what you have, not what you borrow on. I see the effects of entitlement thinking all over the place. This morning, for example, 0700 a man comes to ED, feeling a little unwell for the last 2 weeks. Did not see his GP, wanted a complete check on a Sunday morning, thought he would come in early to beat the queues in ED. just wanted to be sure everything was OK. A mother brought her 3 children in, with skin infections. The infections had been present for over one week, but on a Sunday morning she wanted 3 sets of antibiotics (free) -and the basic problem was a lack of soap. There was the lady who was protesting that she was waiting too long to be assessed - problem? Simple sore throat. I was suturing a huge dog bite laceration at the time, took me 90 minutes to repair, blood everywhere, muscle repair - she was brought in to me for her to open her mouth (as she tried not to faint at the sight of ripped flesh) - but still she thought her sore throat was an important issue for ED ... me first. me first. me first. Those inter-generationally unemployed baby-factories are the biggest single drain on time of any group that I encounter. One at 0200 this morning, 6th pregnancy, no antenatal care - always an excuse not to go, and she gets it free - in labour in the ED here, flown out after stabilising her ($10,000 worth of your and my money down the drain) and stopping the contractions, criticising us for not being able to tell her all will be well, when we have no ultrasound progress, no bloods, baby small (smoking in pregnancy, marijuana - to calm the nerves etc etc, alcohol) and her own mother present who has done all that before her (did I mention the intergenerational professionally unemployed) reeking of cigarette smoke and giving us advice and agitating the daughter to even greater heights of studied contempt for nurses and doctor ... mmm ... Yes, I will feel budgetary pain. I am going to be taxed to make up for the losses incurred by self-serving politicians who have squandered our money, placed us in debt, lied and cheated, feathered their own nests, and - in the case of the ALP - who are committed to ensuring that the examples above are going to remain the norm, and that they will be financed by people who do actually work, pay tax in huge amounts, and contribute to society. But if we can bring the country back into some form of collective responsibility, and move away from a nanny state populated by bludgers, I am prepared to pay that price. Can you tell me what ED you work at, because I sure as hell won't want you assessing me or my family, how judgemental of you, I am sorry I am sure you are a Christian Man wow, I am sure the patients you endured this morning weren't perfect and could improve their lives in a lot of way, like a lot of people I am sure, in shock, it's black and white hey, I can see some grey areas........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie22 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The points made by Rupert are, in my opinion, spot on. From my perspective, I think the budget is needed. It does not go nearly far enough in cutting waste from bureaucracy, but it does address vital issues of basic budgeting. We have an entitlement society, it is very different from the society I knew in Australia in the late 1960's, where old-fashioned approaches to life were normal - you spend what you have, not what you borrow on. I see the effects of entitlement thinking all over the place. This morning, for example, 0700 a man comes to ED, feeling a little unwell for the last 2 weeks. Did not see his GP, wanted a complete check on a Sunday morning, thought he would come in early to beat the queues in ED. just wanted to be sure everything was OK. A mother brought her 3 children in, with skin infections. The infections had been present for over one week, but on a Sunday morning she wanted 3 sets of antibiotics (free) -and the basic problem was a lack of soap. There was the lady who was protesting that she was waiting too long to be assessed - problem? Simple sore throat. I was suturing a huge dog bite laceration at the time, took me 90 minutes to repair, blood everywhere, muscle repair - she was brought in to me for her to open her mouth (as she tried not to faint at the sight of ripped flesh) - but still she thought her sore throat was an important issue for ED ... me first. me first. me first. Those inter-generationally unemployed baby-factories are the biggest single drain on time of any group that I encounter. One at 0200 this morning, 6th pregnancy, no antenatal care - always an excuse not to go, and she gets it free - in labour in the ED here, flown out after stabilising her ($10,000 worth of your and my money down the drain) and stopping the contractions, criticising us for not being able to tell her all will be well, when we have no ultrasound progress, no bloods, baby small (smoking in pregnancy, marijuana - to calm the nerves etc etc, alcohol) and her own mother present who has done all that before her (did I mention the intergenerational professionally unemployed) reeking of cigarette smoke and giving us advice and agitating the daughter to even greater heights of studied contempt for nurses and doctor ... mmm ... Yes, I will feel budgetary pain. I am going to be taxed to make up for the losses incurred by self-serving politicians who have squandered our money, placed us in debt, lied and cheated, feathered their own nests, and - in the case of the ALP - who are committed to ensuring that the examples above are going to remain the norm, and that they will be financed by people who do actually work, pay tax in huge amounts, and contribute to society. But if we can bring the country back into some form of collective responsibility, and move away from a nanny state populated by bludgers, I am prepared to pay that price. So how is this $7 copayment going to stop the people you mentioned attending your emergency department? And so much for confidentiality - I'm presuming they're not real people? And how is taking Family Tax B away from a single parent who works, who does not take her kids to emergency when they're ill but attends a GP (there are some out there) and receives a low income fair? I for one am not talking about the bludgers. There must be other steps put in place to stop these people not by reducing innocent peoples incomes. I pay tax too and I want my tax to go towards people who need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docboat Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Can you tell me what ED you work at, because I sure as hell won't want you assessing me or my family, how judgemental of you, I am sorry I am sure you are a Christian Man wow, I am sure the patients you endured this morning weren't perfect and could improve their lives in a lot of way, like a lot of people I am sure, in shock, it's black and white hey, I can see some grey areas........... And here we see a perfectly good example of what I mean. 1. Did you think I shouted at the patients? Behaved unprofessionally? How dare you, completely ignorant of me as you are. How judgemental of you! And how completely incorrect. I would demand an apology from you for your insult, if I thought your opinion of any value 2. And the issues mentioned completely passed you by, I see. Surprised, I am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docboat Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 So how is this $7 copayment going to stop the people you mentioned attending your emergency department? And so much for confidentiality - I'm presuming they're not real people? And how is taking Family Tax B away from a single parent who works, who does not take her kids to emergency when they're ill but attends a GP (there are some out there) and receives a low income fair? I for one am not talking about the bludgers. There must be other steps put in place to stop these people not by reducing innocent peoples incomes. I pay tax too and I want my tax to go towards people who need it. I agree. As I see it, the doctor wears the $7 tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harpodom Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Are you Yoda? And here we see a perfectly good example of what I mean. 1. Did you think I shouted at the patients? Behaved unprofessionally? How dare you, completely ignorant of me as you are. How judgemental of you! And how completely incorrect. I would demand an apology from you for your insult, if I thought your opinion of any value 2. And the issues mentioned completely passed you by, I see. Surprised, I am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Those inter-generationally unemployed baby-factories are the biggest single drain on time of any group that I encounter.. So...the onus is on governments to make policies which target this problem. Nothing they have done will alter this behaviour. In fact Costello's baby bonus encouraged it. The proposed changes are a blunt instrument which punish those who don't deserve it eg. older pensioners and working poor who are trying to do the right thing...and are an administrative nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 And here we see a perfectly good example of what I mean. 1. Did you think I shouted at the patients? Behaved unprofessionally? How dare you, completely ignorant of me as you are. How judgemental of you! And how completely incorrect. I would demand an apology from you for your insult, if I thought your opinion of any value 2. And the issues mentioned completely passed you by, I see. Surprised, I am Talking about your patients on here is hardly professional Thousands read these pages, odds are people (or friends of) may recognize themselves, look at your photo (if it is of you) and put two and two together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 No more bludgers. Why should I,work though? Haven't I done enough at 60? You can retire now if you wish. According to some on here, it is only your own lack of hard work which would prevent this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishgirl1 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 And here we see a perfectly good example of what I mean. 1. Did you think I shouted at the patients? Behaved unprofessionally? How dare you, completely ignorant of me as you are. How judgemental of you! And how completely incorrect. I would demand an apology from you for your insult, if I thought your opinion of any value 2. And the issues mentioned completely passed you by, I see. Surprised, I am The issues didn't pass me by at all, I said there were grey areas and I am sure people could improve their lives I have not doubt you were professional, but you have judged these patients on what you have seen this morning rightly or wrongly I am saying I wouldn't want you judging me or my family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy1 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The issues didn't pass me by at all, I said there were grey areas and I am sure people could improve their lives I have not doubt you were professional, but you have judged these patients on what you have seen this morning rightly or wrongly I am saying I wouldn't want you judging me or my family Problem is that he is being very unprofessional merely by talking about his patients on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skani Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I agree. As I see it, the doctor wears the $7 tax. And the extra penalty, for not charging the payment. Can't remember the exact figure - I think Harpodom detailed them in an early post on the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramac Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The points made by Rupert are, in my opinion, spot on. From my perspective, I think the budget is needed. It does not go nearly far enough in cutting waste from bureaucracy, but it does address vital issues of basic budgeting. We have an entitlement society, it is very different from the society I knew in Australia in the late 1960's, where old-fashioned approaches to life were normal - you spend what you have, not what you borrow on. I see the effects of entitlement thinking all over the place. This morning, for example, 0700 a man comes to ED, feeling a little unwell for the last 2 weeks. Did not see his GP, wanted a complete check on a Sunday morning, thought he would come in early to beat the queues in ED. just wanted to be sure everything was OK. A mother brought her 3 children in, with skin infections. The infections had been present for over one week, but on a Sunday morning she wanted 3 sets of antibiotics (free) -and the basic problem was a lack of soap. There was the lady who was protesting that she was waiting too long to be assessed - problem? Simple sore throat. I was suturing a huge dog bite laceration at the time, took me 90 minutes to repair, blood everywhere, muscle repair - she was brought in to me for her to open her mouth (as she tried not to faint at the sight of ripped flesh) - but still she thought her sore throat was an important issue for ED ... me first. me first. me first. Those inter-generationally unemployed baby-factories are the biggest single drain on time of any group that I encounter. One at 0200 this morning, 6th pregnancy, no antenatal care - always an excuse not to go, and she gets it free - in labour in the ED here, flown out after stabilising her ($10,000 worth of your and my money down the drain) and stopping the contractions, criticising us for not being able to tell her all will be well, when we have no ultrasound progress, no bloods, baby small (smoking in pregnancy, marijuana - to calm the nerves etc etc, alcohol) and her own mother present who has done all that before her (did I mention the intergenerational professionally unemployed) reeking of cigarette smoke and giving us advice and agitating the daughter to even greater heights of studied contempt for nurses and doctor ... mmm ... Yes, I will feel budgetary pain. I am going to be taxed to make up for the losses incurred by self-serving politicians who have squandered our money, placed us in debt, lied and cheated, feathered their own nests, and - in the case of the ALP - who are committed to ensuring that the examples above are going to remain the norm, and that they will be financed by people who do actually work, pay tax in huge amounts, and contribute to society. But if we can bring the country back into some form of collective responsibility, and move away from a nanny state populated by bludgers, I am prepared to pay that price. I don't think anyone would argue that there are those who abuse the system (any system), but I can't see how denying people healthcare or education on the basis that they're poor is going to help in any way. It will take investment into early intervention services to stop the rot, not punishing those who already feel they're not part of society. However, no one will take that on because it will take longer than the term of one government and they only think from one election to the next. What happens to those who can't do anything about their situation? The disabled, sick, their carers, the abused? I'm shocked that you make judgements about people who you know nothing about, save what you see in front of you. I think you should ask for your post to be taken down - you and your patients could be very recognisable from it and you don't know who may be looking at the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie22 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 So what's the answer guys? Stop all benefits full stop, after all why should us tax payers pay for other people's luxuries. If you lose your job tough poop until you find another one. If you are behind with bills etc and in danger of losing your home tough poop - go out get a job. If you can't afford rent so will be made homeless - tough poop, I've heard park benches are really quite comfy. If you're disabled - hey that's no excuse even if you've got numerous chronic health issues and wheelchair bound - you can still work. Single parent with disabled child who needs lots of care - tough poop go out and get a job, why should the government help you? Oh and don't forget lets sterilise anyone who has the slightest inkling that their other half will do a runner, these single parents are a menace to society. Australia needs more families like the Abbotts! Sounds a bit silly,of course it does? So do some of the posts on here that seem to think that this budget is only affecting the dole bludgers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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