Bengals. What happens when you can't prove its 5 generations removed from the Asian Leopard cat

[Rusty_]

On 22/12/2019 at 12:06, FloraDe said:

Hello, Florencia here.

Having the same situation about traveling with a Bengal to Australia.

Anyone know what happened with the cases above?

Any comment or help will be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time

Hi Florencia,

Sorry for the delay - hope you're not too stressed about it all! It was the source of a good few sleepless nights for me just not being sure if we'd be able to take our little Bengal with us to Australia! Well, 7 or 8 months later and I can happily say - we're here in Australia with our Bengal, who we eventually got approved!

The best two pieces of advice I can recommend are firstly to email the imports department at the department of agriculture directly - we spoke with a guy named Alex Blanden there who told us what we needed to do, and was very helpful (albeit with a little bit of a time delay between the time zone thing and the emails not going direct, which was a bit frustrating but we got there in the end!)

Basically, in the end I don't think we really proved very much at all other than that we were really determined to do as much as we could to get an import approval for Dennis - at first it didn't sound very promising, but keep at them and just ask what more you can possibly do, and provide all the details you can. We had a certificate showing the names of the previous 3 or 4 generations, but no registration numbers at all, which meant that I couldn't register Dennis as a pedigree cat with TICA, but for $10 or $20 they let me register him as a domestic cat, and then between that and pointing out that technically he isn't really a pedigree Bengal in that case and should be considered a Bengal cross at best they agreed to give us a permit! It did take at least 3 weeks of communication back and forth and lots of patience, but I still remember the morning we woke up to the email to say he would be allowed in!

Basically, just grovel and explain as much as you can, and provide as much information as you can find for your cat, and think about registering with TICA (a fairly painful process in itself, but worth it), and just be nice to whoever you end up speaking to from the department of agriculture!! 

 

The other piece of advice is to sort yourself out with a group like PetAir UK who can offer extra advice and really make the travel thing just much less stressful for both you and your pet(s)! We've just used them for our 2 cats to come from UK to Aus, and they really helped just make life so much easier! They even offer to do the import permit process for you, which really helps as the cost of putting the wrong information in there can be expensive from what I could tell, so having someone do it who's done it before was a big relief!

A little note of caution from our recent experience is not to expect the vets to be very helpful at all - we had to stay on top of them to make sure they did everything that was required at the right times, as otherwise I think they didn't really have a clue about Australia at all - your experience might be different but best to make sure you know everything that's required and when - you can find it on the Australian government / department of agriculture website which has a handy tool where you enter your desired arrival date and they show you the different dates you need to do stuff to make sure you'll be good for the big day!

Also, if your cat(s) are used to a particular diet and are fussy about what they eat, or might become ill / upset stomach if put onto only dry food, I'd really recommend getting in touch with the quarantine place nearer the time they're due to arrive and explain what to do to avoid any upset, and they'll probably offer you the chance to arrange to have food delivered.

Hope this helps - sorry again for the delayed response!!

Merry Christmas!! Rusty

[FloraDe]

18 hours ago, The Pom Queen said:

Hi @FloraDe I am a bengal Breeder in Australia and was in the UK for many years. Firstly, is your cat a bengal? Is it coming from the UK? Is it a pedigree? And if so, do you have GCCF paperwork? If the answer is yes then you will need a certified pedigree to prove that your bengal is 5 generations away from the ALC.

So firstly, get all your proof together and send it to Alex at Exotic.species@environment.gov.au  
 

Hello, Pom Queen,

Thank you SO much for taking the time and sending me this message.

Our cat is a bengal, but we have no papers at all, as we got her from what i found out to be a "dodgy breeder", the mother was a bengal-mix already and I understand the father is an actual pedigree champion.

I'm trying to get hold of some paper from the father but at the moment seems impossible... and even if getting that I'm not sure i could do much but will give a try of course.  

Attached a pic of Bulma... she is been neutered, vaccinated against rabies, micro-chipped, indoor and such a lovely baby... not aggressive at all!!  so she wouldn't represent any harm to the biodiversity in Australia, but I understand the rules are the rules. 

I sent a message explaining the situation to that address above, so I'm waiting for them to tell me if there is a anything we can do.

Thanks again for your time and Merry Christmas.

[FloraDe]

3 hours ago, Rusty_ said:

Hi Florencia,

Sorry for the delay - hope you're not too stressed about it all! It was the source of a good few sleepless nights for me just not being sure if we'd be able to take our little Bengal with us to Australia! Well, 7 or 8 months later and I can happily say - we're here in Australia with our Bengal, who we eventually got approved!

The best two pieces of advice I can recommend are firstly to email the imports department at the department of agriculture directly - we spoke with a guy named Alex Blanden there who told us what we needed to do, and was very helpful (albeit with a little bit of a time delay between the time zone thing and the emails not going direct, which was a bit frustrating but we got there in the end!)

Basically, in the end I don't think we really proved very much at all other than that we were really determined to do as much as we could to get an import approval for Dennis - at first it didn't sound very promising, but keep at them and just ask what more you can possibly do, and provide all the details you can. We had a certificate showing the names of the previous 3 or 4 generations, but no registration numbers at all, which meant that I couldn't register Dennis as a pedigree cat with TICA, but for $10 or $20 they let me register him as a domestic cat, and then between that and pointing out that technically he isn't really a pedigree Bengal in that case and should be considered a Bengal cross at best they agreed to give us a permit! It did take at least 3 weeks of communication back and forth and lots of patience, but I still remember the morning we woke up to the email to say he would be allowed in!

Basically, just grovel and explain as much as you can, and provide as much information as you can find for your cat, and think about registering with TICA (a fairly painful process in itself, but worth it), and just be nice to whoever you end up speaking to from the department of agriculture!! 

 

The other piece of advice is to sort yourself out with a group like PetAir UK who can offer extra advice and really make the travel thing just much less stressful for both you and your pet(s)! We've just used them for our 2 cats to come from UK to Aus, and they really helped just make life so much easier! They even offer to do the import permit process for you, which really helps as the cost of putting the wrong information in there can be expensive from what I could tell, so having someone do it who's done it before was a big relief!

A little note of caution from our recent experience is not to expect the vets to be very helpful at all - we had to stay on top of them to make sure they did everything that was required at the right times, as otherwise I think they didn't really have a clue about Australia at all - your experience might be different but best to make sure you know everything that's required and when - you can find it on the Australian government / department of agriculture website which has a handy tool where you enter your desired arrival date and they show you the different dates you need to do stuff to make sure you'll be good for the big day!

Also, if your cat(s) are used to a particular diet and are fussy about what they eat, or might become ill / upset stomach if put onto only dry food, I'd really recommend getting in touch with the quarantine place nearer the time they're due to arrive and explain what to do to avoid any upset, and they'll probably offer you the chance to arrange to have food delivered.

Hope this helps - sorry again for the delayed response!!

Merry Christmas!! Rusty

Oh my god... Thank you so much for all this info!!! it's heaven... I'm very happy you managed to get your kid-cat with you.
And hope to have the same luck soon.

It's very stressful but I'm doing whatever it takes to bring her with us even if it takes couple of months.
I already spoke with some friends who would take care of her in case we have to move (my partner's job require him to be there asap) and we couldn't sort out the papers before leaving.

I agree that vets are not aware of all this paperwork needed to move cats abroad hehe. And with PetAir they were quite direct telling me that I need pedigree to fly our cat, otherwise is not possible. So I'm simply desperate!

Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time and explaining all the situation and your personal outcome. Gives me hope that we might be able to do it.

Merry Christmas indeed. Great present you gave us: knowledge.  

[Marisawright]

9 hours ago, FloraDe said:

Our cat is a bengal, but we have no papers at all, as we got her from what i found out to be a "dodgy breeder", the mother was a bengal-mix already and I understand the father is an actual pedigree champion.

I'm trying to get hold of some paper from the father but at the moment seems impossible... and even if getting that I'm not sure i could do much but will give a try of course.  

I think you are missing the point.  

You'll notice that Rusty achieved success by registering her cat NOT as a Bengal but as a domestic cat, and that's what ThePomQueen is telling you too.

I know you're proud of the fact you have a Bengal and horrified at the thought of saying she's just a cross tabby, but which would you prefer?   Stick to your guns and say "she's almost pure Bengal even though I have no evidence" - and potentially get refused?   Or swallow your pride and say,  "My cat has Bengal markings but I've since learned it was a dodgy breeder who can't give me any papers, so she's just a moggy" - and get accepted?

Edited December 25, 2019 by Marisawright

[FloraDe]

22 hours ago, Marisawright said:

I think you are missing the point.  

You'll notice that Rusty achieved success by registering her cat NOT as a Bengal but as a domestic cat, and that's what ThePomQueen is telling you too.

I know you're proud of the fact you have a Bengal and horrified at the thought of saying she's just a cross tabby, but which would you prefer?   Stick to your guns and say "she's almost pure Bengal even though I have no evidence" - and potentially get refused?   Or swallow your pride and say,  "My cat has Bengal markings but I've since learned it was a dodgy breeder who can't give me any papers, so she's just a moggy" - and get accepted?

Hi Marisawright,
Thanks for your message.

I totally apologise if I sounded proud at all. Didn't mean to.
I'm happy to say she's a crossbreed!!! and a bit of a goofy too, jaja 

I applied for a household cat certificate with TICA (crossbreed cat) as Rusty mentioned and I'm waiting for that.

ThePomQueen, Rusty, Marisawright... I'm only thankful for your messages and for taking the time to reply and help. Thank you.  
I'll keep you posted on what happens next.

xxx

[Anna A]

I am so sorry to go through this again but I just want to confirm the steps as I have just spoken to an pet shipping expert who has said this can't be done. Clearly it can.

So we have a Bengal (maybe). We are moving from Malaysia to Perth. Forgetting all the issue of Malaysia no longer being an approved country and my shipping expert saying it can't be done... Following this thread I should email Alex  Exotic.species@environment.gov.au requesting further advice? As well as to explain that my boy has no paperwork? He is from a pet shop, he was there for 2 years and we kept walking past him before enough was enough. That is not fair to any animal. He is up to date on vaccinations, neutered and not aggressive (we have a 7 month old and we adopted Bengal two months before baby, never an issue). But most importantly, there is no paperwork for him.

Or should I just list him as a tabby cross? My concern with this is if he is flagged coming into Australia what can I do to prove he is a tabby? 

I really appreciate any direction. I am going to speak to another pet shipping company tomorrow and see if they are a little more familiar with cases like this. I have also included some pictures to help with the Bengal vs. tabby, though he is decidedly unimpressed and hiding under the furniture as it was vet day today...

[BobPetairUK]

Hi Anna

I dont really know what else to add, other than keeping on going is the main piece of advice. We use a company in Malaysia called Intermovers and they have usually been really good, so contact them. Or look here for other pet shippers in Malaysia - www.ipata.org

I hope that may help a bit. 

[jdavies27]

Hello,

I'm in this exact situation with my beautiful 4 year old neutered male. He was adopted from a dodgy breeder who stated that he didn't need pedigree registration papers as he was a Bengal mix at best. I've reached out to the exotic species email and have been consistently denied as they say if he has any bengal in him at all, they need to see papers proving he is an F5.

I didn't want to start off on the wrong foot by trying to apply and pass him off as a tabby. He does have markings of a bengal, so it's quite obvious... the issue is... I can't prove his generation.

I read earlier in this threat that their cat was passed off as a bengal cross. I'm wondering how the permit could possibly be approved without any pedigree papers? Since you're admiting he has some bengal in him, it seems like it's impossible without the documents.

I'm frustrated that there is no DNA testing to prove the generation, so what the heck are you supposed to do? It's not possible to prove so why hold such a high, specific standard? What if you had a rescue, with no docs or adopted a cat, not realizing it had bengal DNA.

Any advice would be appreciated. I'm simply desperate at this point.

Thanks,

Jessica 

[BobPetairUK]

Hi Jessica

The advice from Rusty is really helpful. Open communication with the Australia quarantine department and ask them. It may be that you register your cat as a domestic short hair, but being up front saves so many dramas down the line. Just bear in mind also that if the pets transit in Singapore then they are funny about issuing transit permits for Bengal cats as well!

[jdavies27]

Hi Bob,

I agree about being honest, which is what I've done. I've gone back and forth with the exotics department and I'm not getting anywhere. They keep saying "a Bengal is defined as any cat with any Bengal in its pedigree regardless of how long ago, even if it so long ago that on its paperwork it is now considered a domestic short haired cat. To import the animal you will need to provide pedigree papers. If this is not possible then you will not be able to import the animal into Australia."

So now I'm lost on what to do. In each of their response, its just the same answer.

[BobPetairUK]

Are you asking the exotics department or the import quarantine department - try the import quarantine department and go with how Rusty worked around it. Only other thing i can think is to contact TICA in UK and see if you can get any pedigree papers at all that way. 

[jdavies27]

Thanks Bob. I reached out to the import quarantine department and they've included the exotics team again, so it seems I'm going around in circles. Since all his paper work does list him as a domestic short hair, I really could go through with stating that is his breed. I am concerned however that since he does have markings of a bengal, that he will be flagged and could face issues on the other side. I'm really conflicted! I want to ensure I do the right thing but any mention of the word bengal just seems to set you up for failure.

[Raplin45]

Hi all, joining the discussion...this is such a tough one. I am in the same situation, suspected Bengal girl, likely a cross, no breeding history and I suspect dodgy breeders with a front as cats coming from a 'normal family home' needing rehoming (lesson learnt). I have been in touch with the exotics department who have essentially said if the Export Vet "declares the cat to be domestic short hair then you can progress with the export/import" but then also said "You should be aware of the risk that the animal could be refused entry on arrival if deemed by Border Control to be a Bengal -  if they are deemed a Bengal then the animals may be seized and destroyed or deported."

So that's a bit of a rubbish situation because even if you are sorted on this end of the journey, they could get there and the worst could happen if someone takes a look and their opinion differs. Doesn't give me much confidence

[jdavies27]

That's my concern! All of my fur baby's paperwork says Domestic Shorthair however, I don't want to just put that down as he does have some bengal features and I would hate for him to be stopped on the other end. Also, as part of the import permit, you have to declare that your cat is not a hybrid and.... if they have some sort of bengal in them then technically they are. You do not want to lie on a document like that. I've reached out to my "dodgy" breeder to try and get any possible information. She mentioned the sir that my cat came from, could have had bengal genetics. She provided me with the name of the place she adopted him from. This place is TICA registered, so I'm hoping I can try and get ANY information. Although, the place is no longer in business so its really like jumping through hoops. TICA have also never responded to any of my inquiries to date.

My hopes is that I can get some paperwork of where his bengal mix heritage could come from. If his father was a bengal mix, then I hope I can provide his history to the exotics department. I believe the mother was a domestic short hair, so that would be my explanation of how he is a bengal mix and why he was not registered himself through TICA or another association. 

It really sucks that they're soooo incredibly strict over any possible bengal mix. We all know these kitties are domesticated and do not pose any harm but hey, what can ya do. I know its possible since reading the success story above, so I will keep trying. The exotics team did say they are reviewing their bengal policies, so I'm hoping they don't ban the breed all together again because that will really make it impossible. I wish you all the best.  

[Raplin45]

On 28/01/2022 at 17:06, jdavies27 said:

That's my concern! All of my fur baby's paperwork says Domestic Shorthair however, I don't want to just put that down as he does have some bengal features and I would hate for him to be stopped on the other end. Also, as part of the import permit, you have to declare that your cat is not a hybrid and.... if they have some sort of bengal in them then technically they are. You do not want to lie on a document like that. I've reached out to my "dodgy" breeder to try and get any possible information. She mentioned the sir that my cat came from, could have had bengal genetics. She provided me with the name of the place she adopted him from. This place is TICA registered, so I'm hoping I can try and get ANY information. Although, the place is no longer in business so its really like jumping through hoops. TICA have also never responded to any of my inquiries to date.

My hopes is that I can get some paperwork of where his bengal mix heritage could come from. If his father was a bengal mix, then I hope I can provide his history to the exotics department. I believe the mother was a domestic short hair, so that would be my explanation of how he is a bengal mix and why he was not registered himself through TICA or another association. 

It really sucks that they're soooo incredibly strict over any possible bengal mix. We all know these kitties are domesticated and do not pose any harm but hey, what can ya do. I know its possible since reading the success story above, so I will keep trying. The exotics team did say they are reviewing their bengal policies, so I'm hoping they don't ban the breed all together again because that will really make it impossible. I wish you all the best.  

Hey again, just wondering if you got any further with this? We are at the point where we've contacted petair to kick off the process but have been directed to the exotic species department again who are having none of it

[bengalinoz]

On 10/10/2022 at 08:55, Raplin45 said:

Hey again, just wondering if you got any further with this? We are at the point where we've contacted petair to kick off the process but have been directed to the exotic species department again who are having none of it

Wow this brings back memories. My cat has been in Australia now for over 7 years. When he was imported I just said he was a domestic shorthair and there was no issues at all. But the thing is he doesn't look very bengal, Just has some features around his face but the rest of his pattern is tabby.

[Bengset]

Hi All

I was wondering how ppl had got on getting their bengals across. I’m in the opposite situation trying to take mine from Oz to UK. I am going with a pet travel company as well. I have 2 cats : one is a pure bred F8 who pedigree i can prove. The other is from an F7 bengal mother but the father is unknown : we think it’s a tabby as it happened when she accidentally escaped the house. I have registered him on TICA as a domestic short hair. I have contacted Heathrow animal control but they have said they think a TICA certificate may not be enough but need to forward some more info to CITES team (don’t know who they are). I can get a letter from the owner of the mother to say this was her baby but nobody will pedigree register my cross cat because of unknown father. Does anyone have any advice? 

Thank you 

[Udo]

On 25/12/2019 at 08:42, Rusty_ said:

Hi Florencia,

Sorry for the delay - hope you're not too stressed about it all! It was the source of a good few sleepless nights for me just not being sure if we'd be able to take our little Bengal with us to Australia! Well, 7 or 8 months later and I can happily say - we're here in Australia with our Bengal, who we eventually got approved!

The best two pieces of advice I can recommend are firstly to email the imports department at the department of agriculture directly - we spoke with a guy named Alex Blanden there who told us what we needed to do, and was very helpful (albeit with a little bit of a time delay between the time zone thing and the emails not going direct, which was a bit frustrating but we got there in the end!)

Basically, in the end I don't think we really proved very much at all other than that we were really determined to do as much as we could to get an import approval for Dennis - at first it didn't sound very promising, but keep at them and just ask what more you can possibly do, and provide all the details you can. We had a certificate showing the names of the previous 3 or 4 generations, but no registration numbers at all, which meant that I couldn't register Dennis as a pedigree cat with TICA, but for $10 or $20 they let me register him as a domestic cat, and then between that and pointing out that technically he isn't really a pedigree Bengal in that case and should be considered a Bengal cross at best they agreed to give us a permit! It did take at least 3 weeks of communication back and forth and lots of patience, but I still remember the morning we woke up to the email to say he would be allowed in!

Basically, just grovel and explain as much as you can, and provide as much information as you can find for your cat, and think about registering with TICA (a fairly painful process in itself, but worth it), and just be nice to whoever you end up speaking to from the department of agriculture!! 

 

The other piece of advice is to sort yourself out with a group like PetAir UK who can offer extra advice and really make the travel thing just much less stressful for both you and your pet(s)! We've just used them for our 2 cats to come from UK to Aus, and they really helped just make life so much easier! They even offer to do the import permit process for you, which really helps as the cost of putting the wrong information in there can be expensive from what I could tell, so having someone do it who's done it before was a big relief!

A little note of caution from our recent experience is not to expect the vets to be very helpful at all - we had to stay on top of them to make sure they did everything that was required at the right times, as otherwise I think they didn't really have a clue about Australia at all - your experience might be different but best to make sure you know everything that's required and when - you can find it on the Australian government / department of agriculture website which has a handy tool where you enter your desired arrival date and they show you the different dates you need to do stuff to make sure you'll be good for the big day!

Also, if your cat(s) are used to a particular diet and are fussy about what they eat, or might become ill / upset stomach if put onto only dry food, I'd really recommend getting in touch with the quarantine place nearer the time they're due to arrive and explain what to do to avoid any upset, and they'll probably offer you the chance to arrange to have food delivered.

Hope this helps - sorry again for the delayed response!!

Merry Christmas!! Rusty

Hi Rusy,

I know it's been quite a few years now, but in care this message still reaches you, I'd be very interested to see a photo of your Bengal Dennis, to see how he looks compared to my two unregistered Bengal/crossbreeds, and whether I might have a similar chance to get an inport approval for Australia, meaning whether ours look more or less like a Bengal compared to yours. 

Alternatively I'd be happy to hear of anyone else's experience recently getting Bengals or Bengal-Tabby cross cats into Australia without pedigree documentation.

Thanks
Udo